I am really reconsidering the Lamy Safari

[N1003U]

2 hours ago, A Smug Dill said:

While Lamy may be prepared to cater, at the Safari's price point, to a wide range of (dare I say) users whose requirements from a nib are not very exacting, by making a lot of different Z50 nib types and width grades available, personally I don't think it really ever manages to truly deliver an Extra Fine nib (in steel or gold, and ranging from the Z50 and Z52, etc. to the Z55 and Z57) for users who actually want an extra fine line, or fit-for-purpose Italic nibs for users who want to write in a formal italic hand.

I have a couple of Safaris with Z50 EF nibs. My hand is not the world's steadiest anymore (if it ever was), but with one of them I can draw about 10 distinct lines in a 5mm space, (so maybe a 0.25mm+ line width) and with the other I can draw about 14 lines (perhaps closer to maybe 0.2mm+). 0.2 is for me a pretty fine line (dare I say extra-fine?), but I am not sure I have the worlds most exacting standards.

 

What counts as a "true" EF?

 

From what I see in these pages, that question has a somewhat subjective answer, and there are always tolerances on top of the mean.I only have two data points, so my observations are probably not significant.

 

[A Smug Dill]

9 minutes ago, N1003U said:

with the other I can draw about 14 lines (perhaps closer to maybe 0.2mm+).

 

While I have been able to get 14 ‘parallel’, distinct horizontal lines that largely don't touch one another with a Lamy Z50 EF nib, it was scratchy and the lines were not crisp and even, so I suspect I was mainly writing on a burr or a sharp corner, instead of a well-defined area on the tipping material. The Z52 EF nibs are better; over two or three different ones I have used, 14 lines was still the max but somewhat reliably achievable, and the experience was smoother, although I think the nibs ‘benefitted from’ being apt to write a little more dryly than the silver-coloured Z50 nibs. The Z53 EF nib I've used is probably the best of them; so much so that I recently ordered three more as ‘spares’, which I haven't installed into any of my pens yet.

 

22 minutes ago, N1003U said:

What counts as a "true" EF?

 

13 horizontal lines is the minimum I expect these days, if it's a ‘Western’ EF nib; 14 or 15 is what I now‡ expect at a minimum from a Japanese EF nib. I was testing some of my Sailor and Platinum EF (and UEF) nibs a few hours ago; with the 14K gold EF nib on my Sailor Promenade, I can do 18±1 horizontal lines (on Rhodia DotPad 80g/m² paper). With the 14K gold EF nib on my Platinum Vicoh PTL-5000A, 19±2; but that pen writes very dryly. Both of those pens ‘outperform’ my two Platinum UEF nibs in that regard.

 

I was testing my new Pilot pens last week; with the 14K gold EF nib on my Pilot Custom Heritage 91, I got 20±1 horizontal lines. The 14K gold PO nib on the Pilot Custom Heritage 912 gave me 17 or 18 lines, which is about the same as my Platinum UEF nibs.

 

 

‡ Yes, my fine motor control has improved quite a bit since I did these in early 2019.

 

[gyasko]

On 8/23/2021 at 6:04 PM, austollie said:

I think that whether or not the Safari is a "must have" depends on what you're looking for in a fountain pen.  I doubt that most people who collect MB149s, to pick but one example, would consider the Safari a "must have".

 

 

 

Here’s an MB guy who has a bunch of Lamy Al-Stars.  (I never liked using Safaris).  I’m not going to take my vintage MBs just anywhere, so it’s the Lamys that come along for the ride.   They’re indispensable; i always have a bunch and if i lose one, i’ll replace it sooner or later.

[inkstainedruth]

On 8/24/2021 at 4:21 PM, Astronymus said:

If you tell me: "The safari was shown in many different colours."

Then I will understand: "I put on a tropical hat and drove around Africa in a Land Rover high on LSD."

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

[arcfide]

7 hours ago, Astronymus said:

It's their marketing standard. That doesn't make it to a standard in orthography.

 

Editing Tips: Prescriptivism vs. Descriptivism | Proofreading Academy

 

In American English we have at least 5 major standards within academic publishing alone, that are *the* standards which you *must* follow to get published. They do not agree with one another in all respects, even in common things (such as capitalization and commas/semi-colons), and often note differences within their own style guides. They are: APA, MLA, Chicago, ACM/IEEE, AMS, and at least a few others I think. There is no such thing as a mandatory standard in English. Many students are taught either MLA or APA in school, but many colleges prefer Chicago, while a significant section of the sciences/engineering disciplines require some variation of ACM/IEEE, or AMS. Many of these are the foundational standard to the publishing standards of individual publishing houses. Put another way, the rules are dictated by the publisher.

 

When it comes to correct English usage of terms that are defined by companies (such as here), the prevailing discipline is that the company decides the appropriate standard, and that you should use the established trademark/official symbol, often with appropriate typographical indicators. This is particularly true in, for instance, many technical fields with computer products. There are even legal and contractual ramifications for not doing so in some cases (though this is rare). 

[arcfide]

8 hours ago, A Smug Dill said:

 

While Lamy may be prepared to cater, at the Safari's price point, to a wide range of (dare I say) users whose requirements from a nib are not very exacting, by making a lot of different Z50 nib types and width grades available, personally I don't think it really ever manages to truly deliver an Extra Fine nib (in steel or gold, and ranging from the Z50 and Z52, etc. to the Z55 and Z57) for users who actually want an extra fine line, or fit-for-purpose Italic nibs for users who want to write in a formal italic hand.

 

Whereas Platinum is superior in catering to a wide range of requirements (including providing Soft Fine and Soft Medium nibs) in its product range, without going out of its way to spare the wallets of those whose requirements stand apart from the masses in its target market, in which the vast majority would want either an F or an M nib for everyday writing. Keep in mind that Parker only supply retailers with fountain pens fitted with F and M nibs, for just about all its models; anyone who wants a different nib will have to use Parker's nib exchange programme to get it after the initial purchase, never mind whether Parker actually has the capability to deliver a proper Fine Italic or Extra Extra Fine nib.

 

To be sure, I think you'd have a hard time arguing that the Lamy nib quality is superior to any of the picks that you can get from the big 3 Japanese brands from a typical sample, no matter the price. That's great if you know what you want or have the competence to manage that. 

 

However, if you're new to the hobby, don't know as much what you might want, do not need Asian levels of fine nibbery (nibetry, nibbage?), or have a limited budget, then Lamy is just more competitive I think. Yes, you sacrifice total maximum individual performance of any one nib, but you gain flexibility, modularity, range, and economy, which are more valuable to many people, especially those who aren't after the absolute best in writing performance. 

 

Now, if the Parker stub nibs are the same as the Waterman stubs that are now available, I can attest to their quality. They are quite good, though you only get a single size. 

[Mercian]

46 minutes ago, arcfide said:

 

Editing Tips: Prescriptivism vs. Descriptivism | Proofreading Academy

 

In American English we have at least 5 major standards within academic publishing alone, that are *the* standards which you *must* follow to get published. They do not agree with one another in all respects, even in common things (such as capitalization and commas/semi-colons), and often note differences within their own style guides. They are: APA, MLA, Chicago, ACM/IEEE, AMS, and at least a few others I think. There is no such thing as a mandatory standard in English. Many students are taught either MLA or APA in school, but many colleges prefer Chicago, while a significant section of the sciences/engineering disciplines require some variation of ACM/IEEE, or AMS. Many of these are the foundational standard to the publishing standards of individual publishing houses. Put another way, the rules are dictated by the publisher.

 

When it comes to correct English usage of terms that are defined by companies (such as here), the prevailing discipline is that the company decides the appropriate standard, and that you should use the established trademark/official symbol, often with appropriate typographical indicators. This is particularly true in, for instance, many technical fields with computer products. There are even legal and contractual ramifications for not doing so in some cases (though this is rare). 

This is an interesting post; but in it you have rather undermined your own argument.

 

You stated “There is no such thing as a mandatory standard in English.”

 

You went on to assert that one particular approach from one specific field is “the prevailing discipline” in defence of your preferred way of typing the name of the product.

 

If you wish to refer to the pen as ‘safari’ (or as ‘safari ‘) that’s your prerogative, and I can understand why you wish to do so.
E.g. I myself have always typed the company’s name in all-majuscules, as that’s how it appears on my pens, on the packaging that they came in, and is the only way in which I have seen it presented by them. Or at least it was until today, when I noticed that they do in fact refer to themselves as ‘Lamy’ in some places on their website.

 

But, if the “prevailing discipline” is the criteria that you (or I) wish to invoke when arguing for a particular orthographic style, then I have to side-with Astronymus; the “prevailing discipline” on FPN when referring to the pen is the same as the predominant convention in written English [by which I mean the one in general English usage, not just the narrow, less-common practice used when making formal citations in academic papers for publication in technical journals and/or citations in legal/contractual wranglings].

In general English usage the “prevailing discipline” is to capitalise the initial letter of the pen’s name - i.e. to write it as ‘Safari’, not as ‘safari’.

Interestingly, I have just noticed that one well-known retailer here in the UK also refers to the pen as ‘Safari’ on its website, whilst simultaneously respecting Lamy’s habit of referring to some of their other pens as ‘abc’ and ‘nexx’.

 

Weird, isn’t it?

 

[arcfide]

23 minutes ago, Mercian said:

You stated “There is no such thing as a mandatory standard in English.”

 

You went on to assert that one particular approach from one specific field is “the prevailing discipline” in defence of your preferred way of typing the name of the product.

 

23 minutes ago, Mercian said:

But, if the “prevailing discipline” is the criteria that you (or I) wish to invoke

 

I'm not arguing for anyone to do anything specific. Like I said, there is no mandatory standard though there are prevailing standards, and there isn't a normative standard on FPN. I'm pointing to an existing prevailing practice as a unifying principle around which one may create a consistent and coherent usage that is in line with the accepted highest standards (which are not mandatory standards, as oxymoronic as that may sound) across the widest range of usages. The point is that there are standards, and you can follow them, but there isn't a single standard and thus you can't argue in favor of a single right way to do it in English, though you *can* argue for a way that can be demonstrated to be most consistently in line with the most number of standards and prevailing practices, which is a different thing. 

[A Smug Dill]

13 hours ago, arcfide said:

However, if you're new to the hobby, don't know as much what you might want, do not need Asian levels of fine nibbery (nibetry, nibbage?), or have a limited budget, then Lamy is just more competitive I think. Yes, you sacrifice total maximum individual performance of any one nib, but you gain flexibility, modularity, range, and economy, which are more valuable to many people, especially those who aren't after the absolute best in writing performance.

 

Let's just leave that at: Lamy's offerings can be competitive for some users' requirements and priorities.

 

I like Lamy, I have a reasonable number of them myself, and I sometimes promote the brand by singing the praises of the cp1 (black oxide finish) and Studio Lx All Black models — which are genuinely some of my favourite fountain pens to use — and offer units from my stash of spares as freebie gateway pens to people I care about who start to show some interest in fountain pens.

 

However, the Safari is not a model I would be giving or recommending, even for use by the likes of my ‘nieces’ (daughters of our family friends and my wife's cousins) in the 8- to 12-year-old age group. Nor would I suggest Lamy Z50 nibs fitted on such as a good way to try a wide variety of nib widths and types cheaply, when I can get Jinhao 992 pens fitted with various nibs (of at least eight types) for less than US$2 all up, inclusive of a pen body and a converter, per unit — taxed and delivered internationally. (By the way, the Jinhao 992 is modular in construction and has a threaded nib-and-feed collar, just in case you weren't sure.)

 

If someone is new to fountain pens and doesn't know what he/she might want, then trying out eight, ten or a dozen different F and M nibs is as ‘good’ and valid an approach as trying out eight different nib width grades and types (as designated or marked by the manufacturers). You might like Broad and Stub nibs, but I don't think it's inherently (more) important for a newcomer to establish his/her preferences in the dimensions of line widths and ‘wetness’ of the ink marks put on the page. It's at least an equally worthwhile approach to just get the ‘best’, most appealing pen on his/her budget with a little bit of guidance from experienced users — or, better still, his/her own hands-on testing by writing with it in a store — to start with, as long as it is fit (inclusive of nib characteristics, ink reservoir capacity, and maintenance considerations such as cap seal effectiveness) for his/her use cases for a fountain pen; and then acquire more pens as interest grows and budget allows.

 

Flexibility, modularity, range and economy are not implicitly or automatically priorities for the individual, especially when we're talking about a hobby, not an engineering or business pursuit. There is nothing wrong with advocating getting six entirely separate writing instruments with no interchangeable parts between them, but each is nevertheless a pleasure to use in its own right, instead of buying fewer pens while getting a wider range of writing experiences or capabilities through flexibility and modularity.

 

I personally started off with buying a Waterman Expert, which I liked enough and so bought the same model in a different colour for variety, then (to my regret) a couple of Parker Sonnet pens with different gold nibs as a next-step ‘upgrade’ to the Waterman, then a Rotring Initial pen (with a markedly different nib design), and after a very long hiatus in buying, a Rotring 400 (much more slender than anything else I had, and with an EF nib that wrote much narrower than anything else I had), a Pilot Capless, some Lamy pens, and so on. It was haphazard, but I don't think that made it somehow an inferior or less effective approach to pursuit a hobby or just writing pleasure. It wasn't until 2018, when I already had twenty or so different fountain pens, that I decided it would be interesting and that it was time to try ‘one of everything’ in different nib types available, barring round-tipped Broad nibs for which I already knew I'd have no use. Of course, by then, how a nib actually delivers suddenly mattered; I'd want an EF to be truly Extra Fine, an Italic to be crisp and suitable for writing in a formal italic hand, and a Soft nib to exhibit characteristic mechanical responses in itself as well as allow different types of ink marks to manifest on the page, etc.

[A Smug Dill]

On 8/25/2021 at 11:27 AM, arcfide said:

Thus, if one were to be fastidious about this, I strongly suspect that the only "correct" way to write it would be "LAMY safari" or some various thereof that includes both the brand and product "sub-name," since even a capitalized "Safari" is too ambiguous (particularly in English). 

 

15 hours ago, arcfide said:

I would argue instead that they are establishing a normative standard for their own products (which is their purview) and that anyone deviating from that -- for example, shortening the name to just "Safari" -- might be considered to be taking more of a stretch.

 

[austollie]

Hi Smug Dill,

 

I very nearly fell off the couch laughing when I saw your latest post (and no explanation needed).  I guess that settles whether or not Lamy is OK with the pen being called a "Safari", rather than insisting that it's "safari".  I hope this thread continues.  There's nothing like a bit if pedantry at the end of a long day in Covid lockdown.

[david-p]

11 hours ago, arcfide said:

 

Editing Tips: Prescriptivism vs. Descriptivism | Proofreading Academy

 

In American English we have at least 5 major standards within academic publishing alone, that are *the* standards which you *must* follow to get published. They do not agree with one another in all respects, even in common things (such as capitalization and commas/semi-colons), and often note differences within their own style guides. They are: APA, MLA, Chicago, ACM/IEEE, AMS, and at least a few others I think. There is no such thing as a mandatory standard in English. Many students are taught either MLA or APA in school, but many colleges prefer Chicago, while a significant section of the sciences/engineering disciplines require some variation of ACM/IEEE, or AMS. Many of these are the foundational standard to the publishing standards of individual publishing houses. Put another way, the rules are dictated by the publisher.

 

When it comes to correct English usage of terms that are defined by companies (such as here), the prevailing discipline is that the company decides the appropriate standard, and that you should use the established trademark/official symbol, often with appropriate typographical indicators. This is particularly true in, for instance, many technical fields with computer products. There are even legal and contractual ramifications for not doing so in some cases (though this is rare). 

This is all irrelevant. Apart from the fact that Lamy is a German company, there are excellent precedents for not following any of the standards you mention -- even in the USA. As evidence, I propose this billboard that I saw near Dallas, TX. Your academic essay above has nothing to do with this or the Lamy case.

 

[david-p]

7 hours ago, A Smug Dill said:

Nor would I suggest Lamy Z50 nibs fitted on such as a good way to try a wide variety of nib widths and types cheaply, when I can get Jinhao 992 pens fitted with various nibs (of at least eight types) for less than US$2 all up, inclusive of a pen body and a converter, per unit — taxed and delivered internationally.

Unless I were prepared to wait two months for delivery from China, which am not, the only place I can get these is amazon.de. I looked at them just now. Only medium nibs are supplied and the pens look like cheap and cheerful Dollar Store efforts. In my opinion, the LAMY safari is a much better and more attractive pen and, given the ethnic cleansing and other inhumane practices that go on there, I have no wish to support the Chinese economy more than I have to.

 

 

[gyasko]

I don’t care if some nudniks in Lamy’s marketing department write it ‘safari’.  I’ll write Safari.  

 

Same with the Parker 51; just because Parker put 51 in quotes for some silly reason  doesn’t mean i need to.  

 

[A Smug Dill]

18 minutes ago, david-p said:

Unless I were prepared to wait two months for delivery from China, which am not, the only place I can get these is amazon.de.

 

I can't say whether it would or wouldn't take that long for delivery from China to Austria. However, when I decided back in January to send a new fellow member of this forum some pens fitted with specialty nibs for calligraphy practice/experimentation, and it worked out cheaper for me to just order a set of those Jinhao pens from China for him, than to send him one of my surplus (FPR) pens with some interchangeable nibs by post from Australia, he received it in small town USA after barely a fortnight from when I put the order through on AliExpress.

[Astronymus]

 

17 minutes ago, A Smug Dill said:

 

I can't say whether it would or wouldn't take that long for delivery from China to Austria.

It can. It depends how full the container with your destination already is. Once it's full it will be loaded on a container ship. That's what I heard. I guess they get more orders from the U.S. than Europe. Also it's frowned upon to order there by many folks for obvious humanitarian reasons. Also the quality of Chinese goods is legendary... crappy.

[david-p]

21 hours ago, A Smug Dill said:

 

While Lamy may be prepared to cater, at the Safari's price point, to a wide range of (dare I say) users whose requirements from a nib are not very exacting, by making a lot of different Z50 nib types and width grades available, personally I don't think it really ever manages to truly deliver an Extra Fine nib (in steel or gold, and ranging from the Z50 and Z52, etc. to the Z55 and Z57) for users who actually want an extra fine line, or fit-for-purpose Italic nibs for users who want to write in a formal italic hand.

As I pointed out earlier, I have no use for an extra fine nib, preferring broad. The LAMY safari can be bought with a broad nib in the shops here.

[A Smug Dill]

28 minutes ago, david-p said:

As I pointed out earlier, I have no use for an extra fine nib, preferring broad. The LAMY safari can be bought with a broad nib in the shops here.

 

Only earlier today, I've been offered two new Platinum #3776 Century pens, with 14K gold Coarse and Music nibs respectively, at significant discount off the (not apparently inflated) regular price, by a well-known writing instrument specialist in continental Europe, who have both pens in stock and ready to ship. So it isn't as if 1. Platinum doesn't range both round-tipped and broad-edged nibs that put down wide lines of ink, even for the entry-level models in its most famous product line, or 2. there are no European stockists from which one can order directly, to avoid having to get the goods sent from the Far East.

 

If you want to discount Japanese and Chinese makes and models of fountain pens in favour of Lamy, on account of considerations outside of physical specifications and technical performance, that's fine with me of course. Consumers make self-limiting decisions all the time, such that what they allow themselves to access is far narrower than the actual market landscape. All I can do is shine a light on the parts they assume or pretend did not exist, such that not only does everyone (including themselves) in fact have wider choices, but also if they still choose to exclude certain options and make their own compromises, they do so with clarity and conviction based on some values that has little to do with the pen as writing instrument.

[N1003U]

3 hours ago, austollie said:

Hi Smug Dill,

 

I very nearly fell off the couch laughing when I saw your latest post (and no explanation needed).  I guess that settles whether or not Lamy is OK with the pen being called a "Safari", rather than insisting that it's "safari".  I hope this thread continues.  There's nothing like a bit if pedantry at the end of a long day in Covid lockdown.

Hear, hear!

 

I have gone through a range of emotions reading this thread, with my reaction ranging from "excellent points!", to "WTH is this person on about?", to "how, exactly, is any off this relevant to the thread subject?", and I am sure a few others. But in the end, for me, the richness and emotion of the exchange is part of what makes this forum to me interesting and fun.

 

If I have a criticism of the off-topic meanderings, it would be that later when I seek to relive the moment, if I forget in which thread these discussions took place, they can be difficult to find again. On the other hand, one might reasonably ask if such trivial pedantry merits searching for, and like good, friendly, conversation, should rather just be enjoyed in the moment and allowed to evaporate.

 

I guess in the end analysis, I walk away tremendously grateful that we have the obscene luxury of arguing over such trivialities.

[stephanos]

To return to the OP.

The original question was : "What do you think about Safari? Is it really a must have for any collector?"

In my view, there is no 'must-have' item for a collection, though if you intend to collect fountain pens it is contra-indicated to have only ballpoints. To my mind, the Safari is an excellent workhorse pen. There is a good reason that it has been on the market for decades. It is also highly collectable, given the regular new colours and general affordability. Certainly, I have enjoyed getting each year's new colours for the past several years. Interestingly, when I taught at a UK university, I would occasionally see Lamy Safaris (FP and BP) in students' hands (don't remember seeing students using any other FP brand/model). As others have elegantly put it, it is a classic reference work and at least one example of the model will probably end up in most FP collections at some point.

 

And then, just because I can't resist. In Germany, there is a whole structure around what is officially 'allowed'/correct language. Same in France. These are then taught and used. In English, there are fewer universal rules about correct language use and there's a wider scope of what is considerd acceptable. As one earlier poster put it, if you want to be published in a particular outlet (academic journal, newspaper, whatever) then you will need to pedantically follow the specific style guide used by that publisher, which could be very different from that in other publication. One possible reason for the difference is the 'hybrid' nature of the English languge, and the fact that so many people use it as a means of communicating (is it comprehensible becomes more important than is it perfect). This extends beyond just the use of Anglo-Saxon vs French-origin terms (grab a chance vs seize an opportunity). At the margins, though, the English language is also highly structured and can convey nuance very well (e.g. "I shall do X", vs, "I will do X" or using "number" vs "amount")... But of course all of that is totally off-topic.