Obliques Ground on Two Planes?

[Rroberrt]

Being new at this, I had assumed that, starting with a stub, an oblique would be ground in one plane.  But one of Mr Binder’s pictures showed clearly, I thought, that another grind on a different plane is required, (particularly important with stubs).

 

I couldn’t find relevant articles (even here), but I would like to know if this is the case.

 

Grind Plane 1 would be perpendicular to  the floor, along the toes of a left foot, flat on the floor.

 

Grind Plane 2 would be the floor, if the foot was now tilted so that the big toe was now higher than the little one, (say by an inch).

 

Hard to describe, but in terms of results: the second grind would allow the nib to be tilted some CCW, without raising the RH tine off the paper.

 

I imagine this was covered ages ago in these FPN files.  I just can’t find it.

[markh]

 

This may not be of much help, but anyway....

I grind my own nibs. Most common is to thin nibs with too wide a line. But my favorite is a right handed-left footed oblique, nicely sharp to get maximum line variation. I do not start with a stub. In particular, many stub nibs have no tipping material, and I find them difficult to get the grind I want.

I have tried grinding the oblique angle, then grinding top/bottom to flatten the nib. Also doing it the other way - start by flattening top and bottom then the oblique angle. Not sure if I prefer one vs the other. Eventually I need to grind the top to come to a sharp line - how sharp is a matter of taste.

 

Having said all this, I have found the best way to learn how to do this is to pay an expert to grind the nib you want, and then take a loupe and study carefully, closely, and exactly what they did. Look closely.

Even better, have several experts grind the same oblique shape. They will all look different.

 

Decide which nib writes the way you want, and than shamelessly copy that grind. It will take quite some time and more than a few nibs to get what you want - you may never get the exact professional results the expert gets (you don't spend hours a day doing this) but I can grind a nib I like to write with.

You need some cheap steel nibs to practice on. Chinese nibs (Jinhao, others) are a place to start.

Of course excellent optics, and grinding materials are required. I started with Micromesh pads, but now use a Foredom bench lathe.

I'm sorry say there is only one path - practice,practice,practice. You will ruin a few nibs along the way, so don't start with your Waterman 58.

 

Good luck. Hope this helps.....

 

.

 

.

[Rroberrt]

On 7/28/2021 at 11:05 PM, markh said:

 

 But my favorite is a right handed-left footed oblique, nicely sharp to get maximum line variation.

 

Good luck. Hope this helps.....

 

.

 

.

Thank you for responding. Nice to talk with someone who has been there, and yes you are already helping.

 

Right handed - left footed oblique, (I think around 10 degrees) is my only grinding goal right now.  I moved from micro-mesh pads to a fine stone, and now a diamond wheeled Dremel on an adjustable stand. If that doesn't work for me, I can see a lathe down the road.

 

You have several interesting points I’d like to explore, but first, getting a short quote onto my response is still eluding me. I can make the selection but can’t transfer it to my blurb, - (without deleting the other 90%, which is slooow.)  Investigating….

[Rroberrt]

On 7/28/2021 at 11:05 PM, markh said:

 

Quote

I do not start with a stub. In particular, many stub nibs have no tipping material, and I find them difficult to get the grind I want.

.

(Getting closer on the quoting end of things: I finally identified the “Quote Button” that @A Smug Dill mentioned earlier - (“), but still had to delete everything around the quote. Need help.)

 

Anyway, we might have slightly different objectives here. I’m using a tip width from 1.0 to 1.1mm,  because at present I need that width  to ‘steady’ my hand and help get a consistent slope. (I can see that changing with more practice.) 

 

So I start with a stub (Safari, Metropolitan or TWSBI), and thus far my grinds are not sophisticated enough to need a tip.

 

What kinds of grinds is it you want? And have you tried in the past the ‘Dremel’ set-up?  (I’m off to look up the Foredom Bench Lathe.)

[A Smug Dill]

9 hours ago, Rroberrt said:

(Getting closer on the quoting end of things: I finally identified the “Quote Button” that @A Smug Dill mentioned earlier - (“), but still had to delete everything around the quote. Need help.)

 

Sorry, but I'm not sure how else to help you, when @brokenclay has already shown you relevant screenshots, and I've addressed the issue of (sometimes) the [ Quote selection ] button does not immediately appear upon text selection on an iPad.

 

If you're using the Quote ‘button’, which @brokenclay has circled in red in his screenshots, then you're telling the forum software platform you want to it to insert a quote containing the entire contents of the post at hand.

[Dione]

12 hours ago, Rroberrt said:

(Getting closer on the quoting end of things: I finally identified the “Quote Button” that @A Smug Dill mentioned earlier - (“), but still had to delete everything around the quote. Need help.)

It took me ages to find "Quote Selection" On my MacBook I just need to press and hold my trackpad then scroll along the bit of text I want to highlight. Once it's highlighted a small clickable Quote Selection box appears underneath and only quotes that sentence or bit of text. Maybe for a PC it might work differently.

[Rroberrt]

2 hours ago, A Smug Dill said:

I've addressed the issue of (sometimes) the [ Quote selection ] button does not immediately appear upon text selection on an iPad.

Aha! I’ve seen the light, and the

Quote

 button framed in black - for the first time.

 

Two mistakes:

1) Didn’t realize that @brokenclay’s red “QUOTE” button meant “Quote the whole post” - which got me in a lot of trouble every time - hours deleting.

1) To start making a text selection requires holding a pressed finger still for a moment.  Swiping, or tapping won’t do it.

 

Thank you both @brokenclay and @A Smug Dill for your patience.

Oh my goodness!  still got something wrong…the word starting with qu… somehow jumped out of the text, and took on a life of it’s own.  Time for bed!

Edited July 31, 2021 by Rroberrt
The word “qu-te” jumped out of the text of the message

[Rroberrt]

Thank you Dione.  I’m using an iPad, and just tumbled to holding the finger down, (analogous to holding down the track-pad) to start the selection. - a long, long senior moment.

 

As you can see, something funny, (not really) happened when I typed the word, “Qu-te” in the body of the text.

[txomsy]

On 7/29/2021 at 5:05 AM, markh said:

 

This may not be of much help, but anyway....

I grind my own nibs. Most common is to thin nibs with too wide a line. But my favorite is a right handed-left footed oblique, nicely sharp to get maximum line variation. I do not start with a stub. In particular, many stub nibs have no tipping material, and I find them difficult to get the grind I want.

I have tried grinding the oblique angle, then grinding top/bottom to flatten the nib. Also doing it the other way - start by flattening top and bottom then the oblique angle. Not sure if I prefer one vs the other. Eventually I need to grind the top to come to a sharp line - how sharp is a matter of taste.

 

Having said all this, I have found the best way to learn how to do this is to pay an expert to grind the nib you want, and then take a loupe and study carefully, closely, and exactly what they did. Look closely.

Even better, have several experts grind the same oblique shape. They will all look different.

 

Decide which nib writes the way you want, and than shamelessly copy that grind. It will take quite some time and more than a few nibs to get what you want - you may never get the exact professional results the expert gets (you don't spend hours a day doing this) but I can grind a nib I like to write with.

You need some cheap steel nibs to practice on. Chinese nibs (Jinhao, others) are a place to start.

Of course excellent optics, and grinding materials are required. I started with Micromesh pads, but now use a Foredom bench lathe.

I'm sorry say there is only one path - practice,practice,practice. You will ruin a few nibs along the way, so don't start with your Waterman 58.

 

Good luck. Hope this helps.....

 

.

 

.

Maybe you can share a few pictures of your grinds with us?

[Rroberrt]

On 7/28/2021 at 11:05 PM, markh said:

Of course excellent optics, and grinding materials are required. I started with Micromesh pads, but now use a Foredom bench lathe.

That looks like a sweet machine, altho I can’t figure why the two spindles are tapered. If my Dremel set-up doesn’t work for me, I know where to go.

 

I just took delivery of the adjustable stand, and the Dremel runs well on it; quite stable, and very flexible for setting up. I’m putting off using it - a little apprehensive, it’s quite different from the swatches. Actually I’ll only use the pads for polishing now. Too slow on steel, and I don’t touch my gold nibs, (which are all monoline, and will stay that way) Also, I’m hoping I can get straighter lines and flatter planes with the new set-up. 

 

What do you use for a hand rest?  So far all my grinds are with the nib in place on the pen, and I’d rather use a pen-holder jig that I can brace on the bench, than just hold the pen in my hand.

 

I’ll need to set up a light/magnifier too. I can imagine it will be fun figuring the best angles for the equipment to sit at, let alone the planes on the nib itself.

[Karmachanic]

On 7/30/2021 at 7:09 PM, Rroberrt said:

still had to delete everything around the quote. Need help

 

Click and drag the appropriate text section (as per above) and release the mouse button.  Pop-up "quote" button will appear.  Click on it, and that text will appear in the reply window at the bottom of the page.

 

[Bo Bo Olson]

On 7/30/2021 at 4:42 PM, Rroberrt said:

Right handed - left footed oblique, (I think around 10 degrees) is my only grinding goal right now.  

I don't grind nibs, living in Germany was at the lip of the well for the last 13 or so years. I had access to cheaper and later more expensive semi-flex factory stubs and obliques from the '50-70 era.

 

 

 I'm not sure how many semi-flex obliques I have. I think it was 15.

They seem to come in either 15 degrees or 30 degrees, nothing less than 15 degrees nor were there any 22-or so degree grinds. Either 15 or 30 degree only.

I have an OBBB in 30 degree maxi-semi-flex and the rest in a mix of semi-flex and maxi-semi-flex, in both 15&30 degree grinds. OBB, OB, OM, OF....never chased OEF is I thought that too narrow to go looking for the great semi-flex oblique pattern.

 

To get a maxi-semi-flex except with Osmia is luck of the draw.

 

Well I'm very unimpressed with a nail oblique in there is No Line Variation.....it is only if you have left eyed dominance you can see the top of the nib with your left eye so have canted the nib. Can help left handers depending on how they hold a pen.

 

Regular flex oblique like a Pelikan 200 and or (82-97 Pelikan era)  or Japanese 'soft' nibs....line variation has to be hunted for, compared to the real thing of '50-70 era German semi-flex obliques.

 

If you find your self always canting/rotating the nib to one side, check your eye dominance.

 

Look to find ways to grind slits with your drimmel and or half moons with the Ahab or Pilot mod to give your home made oblique some flex...for line variation.

 

[Rroberrt]

1 hour ago, Bo Bo Olson said:

Look to find ways to grind slits with your drimmel and or half moons with the Ahab or Pilot mod to give your home made oblique some flex...for line variation.

 

There are many individuals here whose words I really appreciate, and you BoBo are one of them. So reading the last line, above, I begin to question my understanding of the term “Line variation.

 

All of my stubs, whether ground to an oblique or not, will give me line variation - some better than others, but enough to add a flair to my handwriting.  I don’t see that I need any ‘flex’ at all to get (what I think of as, ‘line variation’.

[Rroberrt]

3 hours ago, Karmachanic said:

Click and drag the appropriate text section (as per above

Thank you @Karmachanic, but I am pointing with finger on iPad.  So no click. 

 

All I had to do was hold my finger on the first word for about a second, instead of swiping or tapping, for everything to work. Controlling the ‘drag’ is still iffy, but just takes patience.

 

On another topic, I find myself going back to my PC, less and less.  there isn’t much I can’t do on this iPad.  I think my next computer will be an Apple that looks very much like an iPad.

 

[Rroberrt]

On 7/28/2021 at 11:05 PM, markh said:

do not start with a stub. In particular, many stub nibs have no tipping material, and I find them difficult to get the grind I want.

Mark, it may cause some teeth-grinding, but what is the point of tipping a stub?  That nice big ball on my Parker 75 - yes…rotation or angle no worry.

 

But on a steel stub, or even a gold?  I can’t see the edge wearing out any time soon- or am I wrong?

 

But I’ve been wrong before

[markh]

7 hours ago, Rroberrt said:

That looks like a sweet machine, altho I can’t figure why the two spindles are tapered. If my Dremel set-up doesn’t work for me, I know where to go.

 

The conical mandrels are only one choice - mostly used for sewn cloth buffs. Other attachments are available, in particular to hold Dreml or similar abrasives. Check out https://www.foredom.net/

They also have some instruction videos on Youtube.

The Dreml is a high speed-low torque machine. The Foredom is the opposite -   high-torque, low speed. I find the Foredom much easier to control.

 

In the end, you need to be willing to experiment and see what works for you. You can take college level courses in auto repair. You can go to professional classes in appliance repair. Or classes in any art - painting, prints, etc...

For fountain pens - repair or nib work, you're mostly on your own.

 

One great reason for pen shows. You might find a class. You can watch, and even ask questions of experts. In the case of nib work you should pay for a slot, have the grind you want to learn about done to your nib, and watch carefully and ask a few questions. I have never met a pen person who was unwilling to answer a few respectful questions.

 

Maybe the right words are that fountain pen/nib repair are really a community skill.

.

[markh]

28 minutes ago, Rroberrt said:

Mark, it may cause some teeth-grinding, but what is the point of tipping a stub?  That nice big ball on my Parker 75 - yes…rotation or angle no worry.

 

But on a steel stub, or even a gold?  I can’t see the edge wearing out any time soon- or am I wrong?

 

But I’ve been wrong before

 

No - wear is not the issue. For me, grinding a sharp italic or nice crisp oblique involves controlling how the end of the nib contacts the paper, the angle you need to hold the pen, and how sharp the contacting edge is. Remember that for this grind the contact point is a thin line, not the forgiving circle/oval of a round nib. How thin is my choice, or maybe it's more fair to say that the more of these I do, the result moves from accidental to actually being my choice...;-)

 

I find that a flat un-tipped nib takes all your choices away. Decisions about sharpness, angle, length, etc seem mostly limited or pre-decided. Think of the end of the nib flat, at right angles to the nib length. Then think of all the ways you can sharpen the flat end to get a line. Your choice.

 

I'm sure there are others that would find differently.

 

.

[Bo Bo Olson]

Stub or CI is a good poster stated years ago, always 100% line variation.

Semi-flex is Line Variation On Demand.

 

Of course you have to have a light enough Hand, to be able to Demand line variation rather than being heavy handed and just writing thick to maxing the nib all the time. (Was heavy Handed once my self....semi-flex helped cure that.)

 

Semi-flex has enough tine spread and bend that one can go from 1 X to two X (vs a light down stroke)  with very little pressure....Start of a word, loop of letters or a T crossing.

If one wants a fancy decender with a bit of practice can go from 1X-2X to a full 3 X and back again at the end of a paragraph or such. Takes a bit more pressure to reach 3 X.

[Rroberrt]

38 minutes ago, Bo Bo Olson said:

Semi-flex is Line Variation On Demand.

 

So Line Variation can be the result of either:

 

a) Hand pressure on a Flex-nib, or

 

b) Maintaining a constant angle with a stub.

 

I like and understand the, “On Demand” analogy, but that is a pretty sophisticated form.  My simpler taste is satisfied with stub-writing ……. so far.  Not only satisfied but tickled pink with the effect - especially when such gorgeous inks can occupy those  lovely wide down-strokes 

 

In other words, while I can appreciate the beauty and the skill when I see some gorgeous flex-nib handwriting, or scrolls, - that is not where my fascination lies.

 

So thank you again sir.  Love that phrase, “Line Variation on Demand”

[A Smug Dill]

12 minutes ago, Rroberrt said:

So Line Variation can be the result of either:

 

Those are just two approaches, but not the only ones in the context of fountain pens.

 

Changing the angle between pen and paper is another. Doesn't work for all nibs, but on the other hand is not confined to Sailor Zoom nibs or even its Medium nibs (with the signature Sailor grind that is faceted); I've observed it with many other pens/nibs.

 

Using a bent nib (e.g. Naginata Concord, Fude de Mannen, Chinese ‘art’ nibs) is another.