1948?

[pdxpen]

Hi Friends:

 

I have my eye on a Parker 51 Vacumatic here in a local shop. It is described as burgundy--and looks it--and it has a blue diamond gold filled cap.

 

First of all, did Parker make a burgundy that fits this description in that date range, or is it in fact a cordovan brown?

 

Second, it is described as dating 1948, and I was under the impression that the blue diamond ended in 47. Am I wrong?

 

Many thanks

[IThinkIHaveAProblem]

https://parker51.com/index.php/51s/51-versions/

http://www.richardspens.com/ref/profiles/51.htm

https://parkerpens.net/parker51.html

 

those are the 3 best resources on the internet WRT to "51"s (that I can think of... if anyone has more, pls add them, I can always use more reading material!   )

 

A Vacumatic would have been Cordovan Brown, but Cordovan and Burgundy look very much alike (see pic below) and there is variation in colour from pen to pen... so frankly, I expect non pen nerds to mark a cordovan pen as being burgundy.

 

To date it, there should be a (hopefully) visible date code on the barrel just below the clutch ring, should say something along the lines of:

PARKER "51"

MADE IN U.S.A.  .7.

 

in this example  .7.  would indicate 2nd quarter of 1947

A pen made in 48 would have an 8 code... but a pen made in 1948 should be an Aero-metric pen, not a Vacumatic.

It may not be there/visible, many pens have had date codes worn down from polishing and daily use.

 

The blue diamond if it is actually painted blue, was likely painted sometime prior to 1946 or so. Or, maybe someone took it upon themselves to paint it. 

 

Caps are easily swappable, and happened regularly (and still does to this day) so it is very possible that the pen and the cap did not leave the factory together.

 

"51" Vacs are awesome pens. (once they have been serviced)

 

Hope this helps

 

Post pics if you buy it!  

[pdxpen]

Thanks for your response! I haven't been able to read the dating code, although I know about it. It's the cap and the jewel that really confused me, but of curse it did not occur to me that the cap could be from another pen.

 

I'll bet anything it's dated wrong, because it's most certainly a vac. I am going to head back in tomorrow with a loop to search for clues.

 

Thanks!

 

Thom

[IThinkIHaveAProblem]

11 minutes ago, pdxpen said:

Thanks for your response! I haven't been able to read the dating code, although I know about it. It's the cap and the jewel that really confused me, but of curse it did not occur to me that the cap could be from another pen.

 

I'll bet anything it's dated wrong, because it's most certainly a vac. I am going to head back in tomorrow with a loop to search for clues.

 

Thanks!

 

Thom

If the price is right, I'd be all over it

I really like Cordovan Vacs.

 

For me, personally, I wouldn't worry too much if the date code on the pen and the cap don't necessarily line up, say if the date code is a 7, and the cap obviously with a blue diamond is likely older than the pen... it wouldn't bother me too much. It's a vac cap on a vac pen. I'm currently looking for 3 or 4 Vac Caps because I have vacs that have Aero caps on them... THAT bugs me, a bit.

It doesn't take away from the functionality one bit, but it bugs me because I know the difference. But a vac cap even if a yr older or so, I think I could live with that (or ya know, I'd just switch it on to a correctly dated pen and put on a cap that has an unpainted diamond in its place...  )

 

 

[pdxpen]

 

17 minutes ago, IThinkIHaveAProblem said:

If the price is right, I'd be all over it

I really like Cordovan Vacs.

 

For me, personally, I wouldn't worry too much if the date code on the pen and the cap don't necessarily line up, say if the date code is a 7, and the cap obviously with a blue diamond is likely older than the pen... it wouldn't bother me too much. It's a vac cap on a vac pen. I'm currently looking for 3 or 4 Vac Caps because I have vacs that have Aero caps on them... THAT bugs me, a bit.

It doesn't take away from the functionality one bit, but it bugs me because I know the difference. But a vac cap even if a yr older or so, I think I could live with that (or ya know, I'd just switch it on to a correctly dated pen and put on a cap that has an unpainted diamond in its place...  )

 

 

 

Did 51s with gold blue diamond vac caps have gold bands on the barrel?  This pen has gold cap but silver band. 

[IThinkIHaveAProblem]

2 hours ago, pdxpen said:

 

 

Did 51s with gold blue diamond vac caps have gold bands on the barrel?  This pen has gold cap but silver band. 

 

Apparently the gold capped "51" Vacs had the gold washed centre ring. And all but one of my gold capped Vacs has the gold washed centre ring... The one that doesn't is a Gold capped Cordovan Brown one...  

But ALSO apparently, the gold wash can wear off quite easily.

(source for gold cap vs gold ring: http://www.richardspens.com/ref/profiles/51.htm)

 

None of which explains why I have a (cedar blue) pen with a Lustraloy cap with a gold ring...

And now we're back to cap swapping suspicions... maybe I should take that gold ring from the Cedar Blue, and put it on the Cordovan pen... Might make more sense then... 

 

So while a gold washed band is nice, for me it's not essential. The one you are looking at may have had it worn off, or maybe the clutch ring was replaced at some point. And then of course, there is cap swapping.

 

[Paul-in-SF]

4 hours ago, IThinkIHaveAProblem said:

A Vacumatic would have been Cordovan Brown

According to the Richard's Pens site, there was an "extremely rare" US burgundy vacumatic, or at least there were color cards from the factory for that era, but he himself had never seen one. 

 

If the OP can take an LED light source with him the next time he sees the pen, he can get a better idea of the true color. I think it's possible to tell the difference even when the pens are not together, if you have a good light source. The Cordovan Brown is definitely a shade of brown (but with a lot of red in it). Anyway, that's what my limited experience tells me. 

[IThinkIHaveAProblem]

It's possible, I mean, there are documented Navy Grey Vacumatics, when they shouldn't exist. But they DO exist.

 

That said, this thread:

demonstrates how much variety there can be in Cordovan Brown pens (since there is no claim in the thread of one being burgundy...)

 

this page:

https://gopens.com/catalog-36-september-2005/

seems to use burgundy and cordovan interchangeably...

 

here is what the Parker "51" book says on page 29 about the colours:

 

Colours
Double-jewelled and single-jewelled
Vacumatic 51s were produced in seven main barrel colours. The four most
common colours and the ones which featured in nearly al Parker's advertising were: India black, Cordovan brown,
Cedar blue and Dove grey. Various shades of Cordovan brown exist and
there is a reference to a light maroon in the Parker manuals. Three other colours
made up the range: Buckskin beige (tan), Nassau green and Yellowstone
(mustard). 

[pdxpen]

Thank you all for your input. I am going to be able to acquire this in trade so it will be worth my while to investigate further. Looking at the pictures I am almost certain this is cordovan brown and not burgundy, although once I get light on it I'll be able to tell. I'll also look for the dating, to see if it's here or has worn off.

 

Will report back.

[Bristol24]

19 hours ago, IThinkIHaveAProblem said:

A pen made in 48 would have an 8 code... but a pen made in 1948 should be an Aero-metric pen, not a Vacumatic.

Interesting... This is what I have read yet I have a cedar blue Parker "51" vac with the standard frosted stainless steel cap.  When I bought it on the bay, the seller said it was a 1943 Parker 51.  When I got it, the highly polished barrel still had the number 8 visible, but only under magnification, the left side of the 8 being almost gone (hence thinking it was '43).  The cap does has the diamond clip as used in earlier years but is minus any hint of ever seeing blue enamel.  My guess is that there was overlap in the transition from vacumatic fill to aerometric and that it is possible to have a 1948 Parker 51 of either fill type with aerometric specimens out numbering vacumatics from that year.

 

Cliff

[bsenn]

Although the pen you are looking at is most likely Cordovan, note that burgundy vacumatic 51's do exist. See the paragraph starting with "In late 1947".

 

https://parkerpens.net/parker51.html

 

I would guess those vacumatic pens made from aerometric material do not have date codes. The one I have (from an ex-Parker Janesville employee) has no markings.

 

Brian

 

[Carguy]

I have 2 Cordovan Brown Vacs….one I am CERTAIN is not burgundy as it was a set with a date code. The other I’d swear was burgundy but no way to really tell the difference 

[joss]

1 hour ago, Bristol24 said:

Interesting... This is what I have read yet I have a cedar blue Parker "51" vac with the standard frosted stainless steel cap.  When I bought it on the bay, the seller said it was a 1943 Parker 51.  When I got it, the highly polished barrel still had the number 8 visible, but only under magnification, the left side of the 8 being almost gone (hence thinking it was '43).  The cap does has the diamond clip as used in earlier years but is minus any hint of ever seeing blue enamel.  My guess is that there was overlap in the transition from vacumatic fill to aerometric and that it is possible to have a 1948 Parker 51 of either fill type with aerometric specimens out numbering vacumatics from that year.

 

There definitely was an overlap and a Parker 51 Vacumatic with 1948 date code is fully legit for the single and double jewel version, and up to the 4th quarter of 1948 (8 without dots). These late P51 Vacumatics commonly have the 'new' cap with the Aerometric style feather clip. I am not sure whether a 'blue diamond clip' cap on such a late P51 Vac is essentially wrong. It has been suggested that late blue diamond clips, those that may have come from the factory after Parker had stopped the lifetime warranty, had no blue enamel in the diamond. But if I understood it well, this is just speculation and it follows from the same observation that you describe (no hints of blue enamel in the diamond).  

[Bristol24]

34 minutes ago, joss said:

 

There definitely was an overlap and a Parker 51 Vacumatic with 1948 date code is fully legit for the single and double jewel version, and up to the 4th quarter of 1948 (8 without dots). These late P51 Vacumatics commonly have the 'new' cap with the Aerometric style feather clip. I am not sure whether a 'blue diamond clip' cap on such a late P51 Vac is essentially wrong. It has been suggested that late blue diamond clips, those that may have come from the factory after Parker had stopped the lifetime warranty, had no blue enamel in the diamond. But if I understood it well, this is just speculation and it follows from the same observation that you describe (no hints of blue enamel in the diamond).  

Caps, of course, are easily interchanged but one cannot help but conjecture that during the transition, 1947-48 caps might have been used on the vacumatic barrels already machined at the same time that the newer style caps were being used on the newly machined areometric barrels.  This is much the same as the 1947 Fords used 1946 bumpers and other parts until those were exhausted.  I think it safe to say that there was overlap.

 

Cliff

[inkstainedruth]

20 hours ago, IThinkIHaveAProblem said:

If the price is right, I'd be all over it

I really like Cordovan Vacs.

 

For me, personally, I wouldn't worry too much if the date code on the pen and the cap don't necessarily line up, say if the date code is a 7, and the cap obviously with a blue diamond is likely older than the pen... it wouldn't bother me too much. It's a vac cap on a vac pen. I'm currently looking for 3 or 4 Vac Caps because I have vacs that have Aero caps on them... THAT bugs me, a bit.

It doesn't take away from the functionality one bit, but it bugs me because I know the difference. But a vac cap even if a yr older or so, I think I could live with that (or ya know, I'd just switch it on to a correctly dated pen and put on a cap that has an unpainted diamond in its place...  )

 

 

I once got an UK production 51 Vac on eBay for the minimum bid because it had the cap for a 51 Special on it.  I had bid the minimum and then forgot all about the bid because that was the week I was completely focussed on the bidding for the Plum Demi I also ending up winning the day before.  And I was later able to trade for a more correct cap at a pen show.  Did I really need another black 51? Ehhhh... (and then last spring picked up *another* black 51 Vac (this time a "Townsend" plant production model) at an estate sale); it had the box (most vintage pens I'm lucky to find one in the wild at *all* -- the box is just gravy as far as I'm concerned) but does need repairs -- not the least of which being that someone at some point screwed the hood on wrong so the nib is at about a 90° angle to the hood opening....   OTOH, I got it for a pretty good price, and it does have a rolled gold cap, and the box appears to be in decent shape (and I'm mentally deducting five bucks off the price because of the Esterbrook 1555 nib unit in the box as well...).

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

[pdxpen]

Ok, here it is:

 

To my eyes, this is cordovan.

 

It most certainly has an 8 (4th quarter). 

 

It is most certainly a vac (my first! 🙂

 

Do you concur?

[IThinkIHaveAProblem]

Wow. That is a freaking gorgeous pen

 

 i would be all over that like a far kid on a doughnut!

 

 And it certainly looks burgundy to me. (But that could be just lighting and camera)
 

between the 8 date code and the burgundy!? Shut up and take my money!!!

 

i am very jealous. 

[FarmBoy]

Navy Grey and Burgundy are Aerometric colors.  Parker used these colors to repair vacumatic filled 51s when stock of the original Dove Grey and Cordovan barrels was exhausted. 

 

You occasionally find in the wild pens with the original color hood and replacement (repair) barrel/blind cap.  All that I have seen and had no date codes.

 

A somewhat large group of replacement barrel/blind cap parts stock was found some years ago and found its way into the hands of collectors.

[Barry Gabay]

On 7/9/2021 at 10:57 PM, FarmBoy said:

Navy Grey and Burgundy are Aerometric colors.  Parker used these colors to repair vacumatic filled 51s when stock of the original Dove Grey and Cordovan barrels was exhausted. 

 

You occasionally find in the wild pens with the original color hood and replacement (repair) barrel/blind cap.  All that I have seen and had no date codes.

 

A somewhat large group of replacement barrel/blind cap parts stock was found some years ago and found its way into the hands of collectors.

This is very interesting, FarmBoy.  Thank you for sharing this important piece of Parker history. I have read about Duofold replacement parts and have seen several examples from overlapping generations. But I never knew about the 51 replacements. Do you know if the later colors were made in replacement quantities in the vac-style or if aero barrels were cut and re-tooled to accept vac innards? Hope to see Navy Gray or Burgundy as a vacumatic-style barrel someday. Thanks again. Stay healthy. Barry

[FarmBoy]

16 hours ago, Barry Gabay said:

This is very interesting, FarmBoy.  Thank you for sharing this important piece of Parker history. I have read about Duofold replacement parts and have seen several examples from overlapping generations. But I never knew about the 51 replacements. Do you know if the later colors were made in replacement quantities in the vac-style or if aero barrels were cut and re-tooled to accept vac innards? Hope to see Navy Gray or Burgundy as a vacumatic-style barrel someday. Thanks again. Stay healthy. Barry

They were specifically made as Vac filling replacements from rod stock.