New EU VAT rules: the end of cheap pens from non-EU countries in the EU?

[MichaelHall]

4 hours ago, A Smug Dill said:

 

It isn't a limited that the outside world is imposing on you, though, just because you know and prefer those pen models. HongDian, for one, has been pushing out heaps of new models month after month; and several I've tried impressed me sufficiently, such that I ordered three or four more units of each of those to give away. They are all relatively cheap, and each would be under €22 inclusive of shipping to, say, Germany. So, while the part of the landscape you're familiar and comfortable with may be getting pared back, but other parts of that world of affordable pens are at the same time expanding.

HongDian is the same. Nobody in the EU will be buying HongDian pens anymore. The new limit is €0. It's not the VAT that is so oppressive; it's all the extra fees on top, which don't care that your pen was just €6 originally.

 

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does not mean there is now less choice (cf. the size of “the world”), even if some of the new options are less desirable in some way in your mind.

You can have any pen you want, so long as it is a Soyuz.

 

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Pelikan and Aurora are still good, as is Lamy, I'd say; and paying VAT on those pens would not be a new imposition that continental European has just started having to confront.

Pelikan and Aurora are expensive, and their foreign competitors were already severely punished by protective luxury import taxes, so no change on the high end of the market.

 

On the low end of the market, you can now have any pen you want, so long as it is a Lamy Safari.

[inkstainedruth]

8 hours ago, Detman101 said:

I admit that I did not understand this dilemma until my pen-friend in the Netherlands attempted to send me a package...costing him the equivalent of $30 USD for a package that didn't weigh more than 10 ounces!!
Just to see...I turned around and asked the postal attendee here where I live how much it would cost to send that same package BACK to the Netherlands...$12 USD.

That's just unacceptable...it's highway robbery. (Or airway robbery...)
 

There are some book listings I've got on my watch list on the Bay of Evil.  The prices aren't too bad, but the shipping charges from the UK have gone through the roof.

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

[Detman101]

36 minutes ago, inkstainedruth said:

There are some book listings I've got on my watch list on the Bay of Evil.  The prices aren't too bad, but the shipping charges from the UK have gone through the roof.

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

Indeed they have.
It has discouraged me from ordering anything from overseas
And it's curtailed my penpal packages to and from overseas as well. It stinks to try and send a nice surprise only to be told it will be $25-30 dollars USD to send it.

[txomsy]

13 hours ago, Detman101 said:

I admit that I did not understand this dilemma until my pen-friend in the Netherlands attempted to send me a package...costing him the equivalent of $30 USD for a package that didn't weigh more than 10 ounces!!
Just to see...I turned around and asked the postal attendee here where I live how much it would cost to send that same package BACK to the Netherlands...$12 USD.

That's just unacceptable...it's highway robbery. (Or airway robbery...)
 

That's actually the opposite.

 

It is VAT to imported goods once they arrive.

 

So, sending from EU to US incurs in the taxes imposed by _US_, while sending from the US to EU pays taxes on arriving to EU.

 

I've seen differing news, but if the limit to import taxes into EU is actually around 20 something EUR, then your parcel, if it contains no goods above that price, would not incur in any taxes, and your friend would get it (assuming he payed you the postage) for 12€.

 

As I say, I see conflicting news, but if the limit is indeed 20 something €, then AliExpress, or anyone else, charging you VAT for lower price items are doing so to earn an extra money for themselves as they will likely not need to report and pay that to EU authorities and will be able to keep the extra profit.

 

But I do not really know for sure, we will have to find out.

[Detman101]

4 hours ago, txomsy said:

That's actually the opposite.

 

It is VAT to imported goods once they arrive.

 

So, sending from EU to US incurs in the taxes imposed by _US_, while sending from the US to EU pays taxes on arriving to EU.

 

I've seen differing news, but if the limit to import taxes into EU is actually around 20 something EUR, then your parcel, if it contains no goods above that price, would not incur in any taxes, and your friend would get it (assuming he payed you the postage) for 12€.

 

As I say, I see conflicting news, but if the limit is indeed 20 something €, then AliExpress, or anyone else, charging you VAT for lower price items are doing so to earn an extra money for themselves as they will likely not need to report and pay that to EU authorities and will be able to keep the extra profit.

 

But I do not really know for sure, we will have to find out.

I am certain that I'm still confused on the subject.
The reports I'm hearing honestly make me concerned for businesses worldwide.
And it "Feels" like this is just another method of the stupid-rich-faction lobbying to change laws so they can illegally grab wealth to become richer.

[mr T.]

On 6/15/2021 at 7:25 PM, BayesianPrior said:

 

Are you sure that every package will be checked and subject to VAT and handling costs?  Or will it be like the current system in Canada/USA where a more proportionate approach is applied (i.e., it's a bit random and not every parcel is assessed an import tax, even high value parcels).

The reason why imported goods from non-EU countries into the EU with a lower value than €22 are at the moment VAT-exempt was that the EU initially feared that the customs in it's member states couldn't cope with the (huge) amount of goods and packages at the borders (airports/ports). This was partially solved by outsourcing the handling and checks on the packages to couriers and postal services. However but the rule that imports into the EU with a lower value than €22 are VAT-exempt didn't change. But as of 1 july 2021 that will change and the couriers and postal services can also charge handling fees for imports into the EU with a lower value than €22 for a profit.

On 6/22/2021 at 4:49 PM, MichaelHall said:

I feel like the world of (affordable) pens has suddenly shrunk significantly for (poor) continental Europeans. My workhorse pens are several Pilot 78G+ and Wing Sung 698's, all under the 22 Euro mark. Now those are prohibitively expensive. Those days are over.

Exactly. Many less affluent Europeans do not have the money for expensive higher end pens. Most B&M shops and online shops within the EU are not selling affordable alternatives to the pens that are sold at platforms like Ebay or AliExpress. 

On 6/22/2021 at 9:53 PM, MichaelHall said:

On the low end of the market, you can now have any pen you want, so long as it is a Lamy Safari.

In my opinion, a Lamy Safari isn't really 'low end'. A disposable bp like the Bic Cristal is and that is what the main alternative will be for many to pens like the Jinhao 992, the Jinhao X750, the Baoer 388 or the Hero 616. 

[txomsy]

On the other hand, it will require platforms like AliExpress to keep large warehouses within EU for the products they sell:

 

What makes the cheap Jinhao less attractive for direct selling is the handling costs at the customs office. But if you import several thousands and pay for them all at once, then you only need to care for VAT. VAT for a 3.5 EUR pen will be 0.7 EUR, so the total cost will increase from 3.5 to 4.2 EUR. Hardly the end of affordable products. But AliExpress will have to buffer products locally.

 

'Cos while Amazon -for instance, and that's not an EU company- keeps huge warehouses in the EU, even for terribly cheap Chinese products (you can get the same product directly from China and wait 2 months or on Amazon Prime at a few EUR more and get it tomorrow), Aliexpress doesn't, and takes advantage of the almost free postage in China and the International agreements where each Country covers their side of the journey to avoid the costs all other companies have. Same for small eBay sellers.

 

I cannot sell in China because my side of the post is not so heavily government-subsidized. But they can sell here. Not that I sell anything, which I don't, but that isn't fair either. It is politics, though, and I won't pursue it.

 

As I said, if you keep a local warehouse, then VAT will be a negligible increase. However, when you add in the costs of local storage and handling, the prices level out and result in a fairer competition.

 

Just bought a case for my cell phone. It was ~EUR 8 from China (2months) and EUR 10.5 from Amazon Prime (next day, so it is obviously here in an Amazon warehouse). I wouldn't call that onerous.

 

OTOH, just checked prices of FPs: a Chinese pen on Prime with those few extra bucks is now in a range on pair with a Parker Jotter or a Pelikan Twist. A Platignum is EUR 4 on Prime and a Chinese bamboo calligraphy (italic) pen, EUR 4.5 also on Prime. Outside Prime, I see a Jinhao x450 for 0.1 EUR... plus EUR 6 postage (and 2 months wait), or EUR 2 + EUR 8 postage. And that's Amazon, mind you, not the cheapest service.

 

So, let's get clear and call things by their name: what we were enjoying might (just might) possibly and highly hypothetically be a result of unfair competition subsidized by the Chinese government who was gaming international post agreements to favor its local export market.

 

And think of this: if they can sell you a Jinhao x450 for EUR 0.1 + 6 postage, what has their margin been all this time?

 

And if someone cannot pay EUR 9 for getting a Pelikan or EUR 5 for a cheap Chinese pen and get it tomorrow at his door, then I'd say that person is in so much deeper trouble that any increase in VAT will be the least of their concerns. Actually I would doubt that person would ever buy the ink needed or even a ballpoint.

 

I feel somewhat tempted to imagine that maybe all else is politics, maybe hidden behind a veil, but hidden politics any way.

[MichaelHall]

True, true. It does seem like the Chinese were trying to (further) capture the manufacturing of consumer items for the entire world - via a temporary transfer of wealth from Chinese citizens to subsidize postal prices and bankrupt much non-Chinese manufacturing.

 

The silver lining of the new import rules is that they fight back against the Communists. The British just got caught in the crossfire. Or maybe it's the other way around.

 

Speaking of unfair business practices... Amazon. Depending on whether one is pro- or anti-censorship, one may wish to avoid choosing Amazon as one's replacement for AliExpress. I direct your attention to the second quote of Glenn Greenwald below.

 

 

If you wish, you can browse on Amazon but then go to the suppliers' websites to buy directly, often saving about 10%.

[txomsy]

As I said, I do not want to get into politics. I find any creed as respectable as any other. For me, it is mostly not the creed, but how it is applied that really matters.

 

That doesn't change a iota that leveling the competition ground should lead to a fairer situation for everyone, and that when one looks closer, this measure seems to lead to that effect (at least from the cursory, quick and dirty, search I did in less than a minute, which certainly needs not be representative).

 

We may argue back and forth about the intentions of anyone, on either side, but that doesn't change either the fact that we are not in their shoes and cannot know for sure, only speculate. We may believe that we know how do we feel, though. Even so, I've fooled myself enough times to be eskeptic.

 

Yes, the measure may affect some, who may be very vocal, but FWIW, what I do see for now is that the effect seems not to be so terrible as to mean that it is The End of the World (or cheap pens), movie at nine. Mostly when considering the average income in EU.

[A Smug Dill]

21 hours ago, txomsy said:

But AliExpress will have to buffer products locally.

 

But it should not be up to AliExpress to do so. If someone in the EU thinks there is a market for cheap Chinese-made pens and cheap prices, and there is still profit to be made by keeping local stock to sell to Europeans (who will be both genuinely grateful, and gung-ho about opening their wallets to buy more pens at cheaper unit prices than better pens), then they can take it upon themselves to be an onshore retailer of such.

[txomsy]

Right you are, Sir. For the verbose I usually am, I left out the 'or anyone else' in my post, which, as you correctly point out, I shouldn't. But same for Amazon or any other seller, major or not.

 

And, actually, I suppose that's already been happening for decades. I have a "Marksman" pen that I bought some 25+ years ago with Baoer's logo on the nib. Wasn't too expensive as I remember. Nor a specially great writer. But it had a metal body and cap which is what I was looking for at the time. It's been only recently that I realized what that logo implied.

 

So, I guess that many sellers ordered the pens from China, branded with their name, and re-sold them (somewhat less) cheap locally. And this has been going on for (many) decades. Only we didn't realize at the time for we didn't have any information.

 

[Kalikrates]

On 6/29/2021 at 5:53 PM, A Smug Dill said:

 

But it should not be up to AliExpress to do so. If someone in the EU thinks there is a market for cheap Chinese-made pens and cheap prices, and there is still profit to be made by keeping local stock to sell to Europeans (who will be both genuinely grateful, and gung-ho about opening their wallets to buy more pens at cheaper unit prices than better pens), then they can take it upon themselves to be an onshore retailer of such.

 

It's a step back, though. This is how it used to be decades ago: you only had access to products that some importer had decided had enough market in your country. If you had an uncommon hobby (like, ahem, fountain pens) or different tastes than your countrymen, good luck (at least the EU is larger than individual countries. I still remember the time when it was all but impossible to get black chocolate in Spain. People preferred milk chocolate. I remember finding German Ritter sport bars, with difficulty. They tasted like heaven. And now they aren't even that good with all the variety we have). 

 

I think it's very reasonable to charge VAT but they should do it in a way that doesn't complicate our lives and return us to past times.

 

Today I received the first hit: 14 € surcharge for a 45 € pen. I had ordered it before July so I thought I'd get rid of the new rules, but no. Ouch.

[ethernautrix]

Ugh. Does anyone know offhand if gifts (from the US to Europe) are subject to VAT or customs? 

 

I understand there's a minimum value which is or was more or less USD150. Is that true? Did it change (i.e., decrease)?

 

Anyone? Anyone? Google?

[A Smug Dill]

8 hours ago, ethernautrix said:

Does anyone know offhand if gifts (from the US to Europe) are subject to VAT or customs?

 

https://www.internationaltaxreview.com/article/b1qsqmp08m207m/changes-to-vat-in-poland-for-2021-introducing-the-slim-vat-package

 

The amendment of the Polish VAT Act, in force since January 1 2021, introduced some changes …‹snip›… 

• Increasing the threshold for gifts of small value which are not subject to VAT taxation when delivered free of charge from PLN 10 to PLN 20 (approximately $2.7 to $5.4);

 

That line regarding the tax-free threshold for gifts is corroborated by a number of pages returned by Google search.

 

8 hours ago, ethernautrix said:

I understand there's a minimum value which is or was more or less USD150. Is that true?

 

Hmmm. Are you thinking of this below?

 

https://www.fedex.com/en-pl/eu-vat-changes.html

 

Removal of the €22 import VAT exemption

   ⋮

From July 1, 2021, VAT is now charged on all commercial goods imported into the EU, regardless of value. For consignments with a value of €150 or below, this can either be charged at the time of the sale by using the new Import One-Stop Shop (IOSS), or be collected from the end-customer by the customs declarant (FedEx).

 

I don't think that has anything to do with gifts.

 

https://www.fedex.com/en-pl/billing/duty-tax.html

 

The shipment is a gift 

Items up to 45.00 € in value that meet the following Polish Customs criteria are not liable for import charges:

• The shipment must be sent directly from person to person.
• The sender must be a private individual and the consignee must take delivery at a private address.
• The gift must be sent free of charge and be of an "occasional nature".
• The word "gift" must be marked on the Air Waybill and commercial invoice.
• All items must be itemised with their own full description and value.

Please note that items containing alcohol and tobacco will incur Excise Duty. Items containing food may need to have additional documentation and be subject to further checks which could result with additional charges.

 

I don't know how the figure of €45.00 reconciles with PLN 20; you may want to look into it.

[MichaelHall]

I agree with max free gift of 45€:

 

https://www.bmf.gv.at/en/topics/customs/post-internet/postal-traffic.html

 

There are the usual seemingly psycho additional restrictions for alcohol, cigarettes, and perfume.

 

For gifts sent to the UK, the threshold is 39 pounds.

[TSherbs]

Nothing wrong with buying fewer pens. Probably do us some good. 

[ENIAC]

There seems to be some confusion here about what a VAT is and is not, and what its effects are and are not.  For a deep dive into the topic, take a look at this from the Heritage Foundation.  The report is downloadable as a PDF; link just below the title.  Your AV application may warn you about an insecure download, probably because the page is 15+ years old -- likely before the idea of forced https, but the file (once downloaded) is safe according to Kaspersky Total Security, using its most-stringent scan settings.

 

https://www.heritage.org/taxes/report/beware-the-value-added-tax

[ethernautrix]

4 hours ago, A Smug Dill said:

The amendment of the Polish VAT Act, in force since January 1 2021, introduced some changes …‹snip›… 

• Increasing the threshold for gifts of small value which are not subject to VAT taxation when delivered free of charge from PLN 10 to PLN 20 (approximately $2.7 to $5.4);

 

That line regarding the tax-free threshold for gifts is corroborated by a number of pages returned by Google search.

 

 

Thank you so much for this and all the other information, @A Smug Dill. My family had sent a few parcels a couple of months ago, two of which were valued more than 45€ and less than USD150, which I received in June. All parcels were in Poczta Polska's possession for at least a couple of weeks and were inspected by customs (presumably), and I paid nothing. 

 

One more parcel has just cleared customs (after about ten days), and I'm wondering if I'll have to pay VAT or duty, cos the total value of treats is just under USD110, which is about twice 45€.

 

I'll find out soon enough!

 

Thank you, again, though. I appreciate your Google-fu for my question.

[A Smug Dill]

3 hours ago, ethernautrix said:

Thank you, again, though. I appreciate your Google-fu for my question.

 

You're quite welcome. I was curious anyway.

[Dione]

12 hours ago, ethernautrix said:

Ugh. Does anyone know offhand if gifts (from the US to Europe) are subject to VAT or customs? 

 

I understand there's a minimum value which is or was more or less USD150. Is that true? Did it change (i.e., decrease)?

 

Anyone? Anyone? Google?

Simply put yes. If I type the question into Google it says Poland has an import gift value of €45 that you won't be charged VAT for.

From July 1st Importing commercial items worth up to your approximate amount of $150 should now have VAT prepaid at source and sent with an IOSS or the carrier will charge it. Commercial items worth more than $150 will be VAT/duty assessed on arrival.