The Journal Shop - buyer beware!

[MoriartyR]

14 minutes ago, invisuu said:

I just realized one further thing; if they charged shipping instead, it would be even cheaper for the customer, because as it stands you pay tax on their tax as well, that they collect for hidden shipping charges. Shipping charge otherwise would not be taxed - to the best of my knowledge.

I'm sorry, I don't understand your comment. What did I do wrong in this case?

He was agreeing that you are not the bad guy.

 

Unfortunately you would be taxed on the shipping costs too. It makes no difference. All countries I know of charge import duties and VAT based on the total shipped cost - including product and shipping. Sounds all wrong, doesn’t it, but tax is rarely logical.

 

[invisuu]

Ah okay, so at least that doesn't matter then.

[mhguda]

Thank you Invisuu for bringing up this point and sticking it out. I also appreciate TheJournalShop's honesty about their pricing; but I agree with Moriarty's analysis, in that the promised 20% savings for non-UK customers is actually an extra income for them, as they charge the price as if it includes tax, and then pocket the difference. And yes, this results in an extra VAT charge in the country of destination, as we're charged VAT over the quoted price plus shipping. That last part has been my experience with any online vendor, since for me they're all overseas.

For me this will be a reason to pass on future Journal Shop purchases, however much I do like their offerings.

[Uncial]

It seems a bit confusing but it seems from their explanation that they are charging the vat rate but technically putting that towards the 'free shipping' for international routes

[thejournalshop]

To the OP, I must apologise if it feels as though you have been accused anything. Quite the contrary to accusing you or blaming you, I can understand your perspective. In your initial post you used the word ‘illegal’ in reference to us as a company in your posts (both here and on other forums and on several subreddits).

 

I would like to be able to explain our position without it feeling like we are criticising you personally - for the avoidance of doubt we are not. I hope you agree that is fair?

 

We have offered to refund you the VAT you paid on import due to the confusion and any part we played in causing it. My colleague also offered you a discount code off a future order, which you are welcome to keep and use if you wish to.

 

This discussion has given us food for thought and it is timely since we are imminently looking at developing the next version of our website. We will take all this on board as part of that process with our website developers.

 

[Karmachanic]

30 minutes ago, invisuu said:

What did I do wrong in this case?

 

Nothing. I am agreeing with you 😀

[thejournalshop]

7 minutes ago, mhguda said:

Thank you Invisuu for bringing up this point and sticking it out. I also appreciate TheJournalShop's honesty about their pricing; but I agree with Moriarty's analysis, in that the promised 20% savings for non-UK customers is actually an extra income for them, as they charge the price as if it includes tax, and then pocket the difference. And yes, this results in an extra VAT charge in the country of destination, as we're charged VAT over the quoted price plus shipping. That last part has been my experience with any online vendor, since for me they're all overseas.

For me this will be a reason to pass on future Journal Shop purchases, however much I do like their offerings.

 

Just to clarify, we don’t promise a 20% saving for non-UK customers.

 

There was earlier reference to such a deprecated page, which was created in 2013 (i.e. on our old website). It is not a page which is linked to anywhere on our website, and not displayed as such. It could nevertheless still be found through Google if you searched ‘The Journal Shop VAT’ and we have now removed it to avoid the slim chance that someone would find the page and rely on it, which has not occurred since we switched over to the current version of our website.

[thejournalshop]

8 minutes ago, Uncial said:

It seems a bit confusing but it seems from their explanation that they are charging the vat rate but technically putting that towards the 'free shipping' for international routes

 

I might have done a better job of explaining out in the first instance if I had simply said ‘prices include VAT where applicable.’ 

 

My takeaway from this is we need to better communicate this on our website, as earlier pointed out. We will raise this with our website developers at our next meeting to help us achieve that and add the specific scenario OP faced, as a question to our FAQs. Hopefully that should provide all the information needed up front so our customers outside the UK can make a fully informed decision.

[invisuu]

14 minutes ago, thejournalshop said:

We have offered to refund you the VAT you paid on import due to the confusion and any part we played in causing it. My colleague also offered you a discount code off a future order, which you are welcome to keep and use if you wish to.

 

 

I just wanted to confirm this is true and I refused the refund, because this is not about the money for me. I'm fine with the extra charge as I like to support smaller businesses in such a niche market, but I need to know what I'm paying exactly. I just felt off with not knowing / being told about it prior to my order. And I feel like others should know this as well. But okay, that's resolved, I feel.

 

Another UK based retailer that I really like a lot is The Writing Desk. Their system is 100% accurate, transparent, you know exactly what you're paying, what is it for, etc. I personally much prefer such a system and perhaps they could be a reference of how to do things better. That's just my opinion.

[MoriartyR]

1 hour ago, invisuu said:

 

I just wanted to confirm this is true and I refused the refund, because this is not about the money for me. I'm fine with the extra charge as I like to support smaller businesses in such a niche market, but I need to know what I'm paying exactly. I just felt off with not knowing / being told about it prior to my order. And I feel like others should know this as well. But okay, that's resolved, I feel.

 

Another UK based retailer that I really like a lot is The Writing Desk. Their system is 100% accurate, transparent, you know exactly what you're paying, what is it for, etc. I personally much prefer such a system and perhaps they could be a reference of how to do things better. That's just my opinion.

 

That is very decent of you, Invisuu, and good that you confirmed the resolution that the vendor offered. To be fair, I have purchased from The Journal Shop before Brexit and it was a good experience. I agree they are a business worth supporting and they carry some nice inventory for us fountain pen lovers.

 

But I no longer buy anything from any UK vendors, unfortunately, because of the additional costs and import procedures involved.

 

[Ste_S]

I've got to say, this leaves a bad taste in the mouth @thejournalshop . 

 

You claim buyers get free postage over £100, but this isn't true for EU buyers. You say your using the 20% that would be claimed by HMRC to pay for postage instead, which means postage isn't free. 

EU buyers are also massively over paying for postage if this is the case, £20 on a £100 order; or a whopping £40 on a £200 order. Which postage service are you using that claims these rates? 

 

I'm in the UK, and Sakura Pen Gallery do it the right way. They knock 20% off the price when I select UK as the delivery country.

 

[MoriartyR]

7 minutes ago, Ste_S said:

I've got to say, this leaves a bad taste in the mouth @thejournalshop . 

 

You claim buyers get free postage over £100, but this isn't true for EU buyers. You say your using the 20% that would be claimed by HMRC to pay for postage instead, which means postage isn't free. 

EU buyers are also massively over paying for postage if this is the case, £20 on a £100 order; or a whopping £40 on a £200 order. Which postage service are you using that claims these rates? 

 

I'm in the UK, and Sakura Pen Gallery do it the right way. They knock 20% off the price when I select UK as the delivery country.

 

Actually, I’m curious now whether the couriers are still charging very high additional fees for shipments out of the UK. I know this was well-publicised right after Brexit but I am unsure if it is still the case. Does anyone know?

 

[invisuu]

The Writing Desk charges 2GBP for small packets (nibs, refills) to EU,  and 4 GBP for packages under 2 kg with 1 GBP additional per kg over that.
 

I paid nearly 20 GBP for 2.4 kg parcel here. Just for comparison.

And what if your order is under 100 GBP? You pay for shipping twice?

[Ste_S]

35 minutes ago, MoriartyR said:

Actually, I’m curious now whether the couriers are still charging very high additional fees for shipments out of the UK. I know this was well-publicised right after Brexit but I am unsure if it is still the case. Does anyone know?

 

 

The closest I can find to £20 postage is £23; and that will cover a large parcel of up to 15kg and delivered in 48 hours via Parcelforce Worldwide.

 

I'd imagine most stationary orders are <15kg.

[A Smug Dill]

26 minutes ago, invisuu said:

And what if your order is under 100 GBP? You pay for shipping twice?

 

Not according to what the order summary or invoice will state, I bet.

[Dione]

36 minutes ago, invisuu said:

The Writing Desk charges 2GBP for small packets (nibs, refills) to EU,  and 4 GBP for packages under 2 kg with 1 GBP additional per kg over that.
 

I paid nearly 20 GBP for 2.4 kg parcel here. Just for comparison.

And what if your order is under 100 GBP? You pay for shipping twice?

£17 on a £100 order.

[1nkulus]

The break up ought to be Price+VAT.

The difference is more striking in low/zero tax destinations.

 

IF I spent £200 with shipping to Dubai, I ought to be charged £167 and with a £300 purchase it ought to be 250.

£33-50 is a rather large 'subsidy' charge.

Shipping would be free either way as it is £100+.

The customs/vat charges in Dubai are usually nil on paper/books or worst case 5% AFAIK.

 

I am certain Pelikan pen buyers from the US would not be purchasing from Cult, if they did the same thing.

Charging UK prices and calling the VAT component 'subsidy'.

OTOH, they seem to have dropped the 'free' worldwide shipping. IIRC, it was initially £75+ and then £100+.