Faber Castell vs Pelikan nib smoothness

[patrik.nusszer]

Hello,

I've never used Pelikan, but a Faber Castell Ambition which uses the same nib unit as the Loom.

The Loom is said to have "one of the smoothest steel nibs out their".

Could a Pelikan M200 beat it in terms of smoothness, or it would have much more feedback as I have read it here and there?

[A Smug Dill]

1 minute ago, patrik.nusszer said:

Could a Pelikan M200 beat it in terms of smoothness,

 

Ignoring the indisputable fact that there is bound to be some variation from one nib to the next, even if they all come out of the same production process in the same batch, let alone different batches with possibly quite some months or years between them during which machine parts and technical settings may have changed…

 

If you want to talk in general terms, I'd say no, ‘the average’ Pelikan M200 steel nib off the production line would not beat ‘the average’ Faber-Castell steel nib (for the Essentio, Ambition, etc.); I have, and have used, several units (more than three each) of both. Do note that I'm taking the logical position that, in all ways that matter, equal to is not ‘beating’; so your question is not whether a Pelikan M200 nib would match a Faber-Castell nib such that you wouldn't detect or mind any differences in smoothness, but whether the former will be noticeably smoother than the latter.

[patrik.nusszer]

18 minutes ago, A Smug Dill said:

 

Ignoring the indisputable fact that there is bound to be some variation from one nib to the next, even if they all come out of the same production process in the same batch, let alone different batches with possibly quite some months or years between them during which machine parts and technical settings may have changed…

 

If you want to talk in general terms, I'd say no, ‘the average’ Pelikan M200 steel nib off the production line would not beat ‘the average’ Faber-Castell steel nib (for the Essentio, Ambition, etc.); I have, and have used, several units (more than three each) of both. Do note that I'm taking the logical position that, in all ways that matter, equal to is not ‘beating’; so your question is not whether a Pelikan M200 nib would match a Faber-Castell nib such that you wouldn't detect or mind any differences in smoothness, but whether the former will be noticeably smoother than the latter.

You mean that as the Pelikan ages and the nib "smooths out" it may well get much better than the Faber Castell?

[A Smug Dill]

1 hour ago, patrik.nusszer said:

You mean that as the Pelikan ages and the nib "smooths out" it may well get much better than the Faber Castell?

 

No, but I think Pelikan M20x EF nibs are quite smooth enough, even if they aren't as smooth as Faber-Castell steel EF nibs out-of-the box. I don't like nibs to glide across the page; excessive smoothness is not a virtue. However, I can juuust live with both Faber-Castell and Pelikan M20x EF nibs. (My problem with the Faber-Castell Ambition is not its EF nib.)

[Olya]

I have only one FC pen, which has the same nib and feed as many models reputed to be crazy smooth and I couldn't even name that model right now because my experience and use is so limited, but the Loom has the same nib and feed unit.

Anyway, that FC is not at all as smooth or smoother than my Pelikans, even the Pelikanos (normal and Up).

In my experience, Pelikans are smoother, incl the m20x (all M nibs, the FC and Pelikans).

[Bo Bo Olson]

All the FC's I've tried....5 or so in the B&Ms were nails....which was all I was looking for. I was hoping for regular flex.

 

I did not look to see if the tipping was round and blobby, like the Pelikan 400/600/800&1000.

A top ball on the top of the nib, along with a  ball under it. = fat and blobby.

 

Nibs are made that way for ball point folks who in a hurry don't have the three minutes to learn how to hold a fountain pen properly and can continue holding like a ball point.

 

Stiffer nibs require less repair from the heavy handed.

 

The 200 is a nice springy regular flex with a comfortable ride and writes with a clean line. I'm a bit OCD on that sort of thing.

 

And being the 200 has semi-vintage nib shape, writes 1/2 a width narrower than the modern Pelikan gold nibs.

The vintage and semi-vintage gold nibs are not fat and blobby; writing also that 1/2 width narrower.

 

I have a W.Germany 600 OBB and a 1005 OBB and the 600 is that 1/2 width thinner.

 

When one has a nail fat and blobby nib; it has to be smooth, in it IMO offers nothing else.

 

Do FC nibs have problems with baby bottom?

 

I don't have to have butter smooth the level under that good and smooth does well for me......I don't have to worry about sliding around on slick paper.

 

I only have a few, land one toothy one which is like writing with a pencil which one needs once you got a couple pen cups full.  Most of my pens are old ones, vintage and semi-vintage so are not butter smooth.

I've no complaints at all about my 200 nibs, the EF is EFish, but the rest of my 200's are Ms, (M is a smother nib than F) or the old one an OM. And are plenty smooth..........and there is a slight feel of writing on paper...........on good to better paper. Feel.

 

Butter smooth is great for poor paper, but I don't have any more of the 80g printing  paper. Having gone over to 90g/24 pounds for my printing paper.

For note taking I use good to better paper, so the nib and ink can tango on the good paper dance floor.

 

Do Stay Far Away From ... Ink Jet paper.

Designed to absorb ink fast, causing feathering with fountain pens.

Combo laser & ink jet  is ok, but a compromise has been made.

Laser is better. Give you a cleaner ride.

 

 

[Uncial]

The short answwr is no, but it's not exactly a like for like comparison. The m200 steel nibs seem to have improved in recent years. There was a time when it was something of a gamble as to whether you'd end up with a dud. Those complaints seem to have largely disappeared more recently. The nibs all have a bit of bounce but I prefer the fine nibs due to the better expression you can get out of them. They have a bit of feedback, but not a great deal. They lack that buttery silkiness you probably have with the Loom nib, but they aren't bad nibs at all.

[maclink]

20 hours ago, patrik.nusszer said:

The Loom is said to have "one of the smoothest steel nibs out their".

Could a Pelikan M200 beat it in terms of smoothness, or it would have much more feedback as I have read it here and there?

 

A Loom M nib is quite smooth, yes.  It could well be one of the smoothest nibs out there but this isn't such a distinction since there are a LOT of nibs out there that are very smooth and there's only so smooth that you can get, right?    There are many smooth nibs to be experienced.  Even then, that smooth sensation depends on nib width, ink and paper as a combination.   A wider nib, tuned to have a good ink flow, used with a lubricated ink and smooth paper .... can't get better than that!

 

I would expect that a Pelikan should be able to write at least as smoothly, nib width for width, once properly adjusted.  I say this because it is not at all uncommon for nibs, out of the box, to be not so well-tuned, with a tine misalignment being relatively common culprit.  Pelikan nibs have been problematic in this regard, in my experience.  I stick with F nibs with my Pelikans, so mine is a F nib user experience, and the narrower the nib width, the more sensitive the writing experience will be to tine misalignments.

 

Finally, I have an M405 nib that's quite soft/springy.  This nib has to be held properly when writing.  If I rotate the nib and write, the lateral tilt that result can lead to differential pressure on the tines.  This differential pressure can, in turn, lead to a dynamic tine misalignment and a feeling of scratchiness when the nib moves in a particular direction across the paper as I write.  Once I hold the pen so that the nib contact is even, there is no problem.  You will not have this experience with the FC nail-like nib since the tines are stiffer.  A wider cross-section of users will likely then think the FC nib is the smoother writer.

 

What I'm leading up to is that it's no surprise that the opinions differ here since we are all nuanced in how we use our pens and our tastes also differ.  The only route is to try the Pelikan and see what your own experience is like, and share it with us.    Fortunately, an M200 can be had new or even better, pre-owned for a price that you wouldn't be breaking the bank for.

 

 

[Bo Bo Olson]

Oddly all the nibs are perfect in any B&M.

It's being mailed ONLINE in display cases that are not postal service proof that causes the misalignment due to the punting contest between robots and humans.

 

Order a pen through Goulet(sp), it is packed to be dropped out of airplanes, so is the pen packaging used in the Super Bowl of Punting.

[sansenri]

I agree and share same experience as mentioned in most of the previous posts.

FC steel nibs are smoother than Pelikan M200, to an enjoyable extent, not too smooth.

Pelikan M200 nibs are more springy (FC steel are stiffer), they are reasonably smooth but you can find the odd scratchy one especially when EF...

Used Pelikan M200 nibs are smoother than new! tested on a number of pre-owned M200s...

All that on average and in my experience of course.

[A Smug Dill]

I have now ordered Faber-Castell steel nibs (attached to Essentio pens, but more cheaply as complete writing instruments than available as standalone nib units) in EF, F, M and B, and already have standalone Pelikan M205 nibs in EF, F, M and B.

 

I definitely won't be comparing them “like for like” or head-to-head, though, since the results wouldn't matter to me that much. However, since both of those product series are so cheap (relatively, compared to buying from other retailers I know of anywhere) from Cult Pens right now‡, I think this is the perfect time for someone who is keen, to jump in and buy as many bits for testing as he/she is interested in comparing; and perhaps “report” and share his/her observations with like-minded folk on hobbyist forums!

 

It takes those who are both interested enough in the question, and prepared to throw money at it to find out, to build that collective/‘community’ knowledge-base to cover those tidbits that intrigue oneself (but not everyone else).

 

 

‡ If you buy enough stuff on a single order, and remember to use an applicable discount code.

[sirgilbert357]

I can't speak to the question posted by the OP, but I can offer this:

 

If you learn to tune a nib yourself, "smoothness from the factory" becomes much less of an issue.

 

I tune probably 5 out of 6 pens I buy...just because I like my nibs VERY smooth. The materials needed are cheap and minimal and you can practice on cheap pens first to get the hang of it.

 

I got a Lamy Al-Star awhile back and the nib was scratchy, misaligned, and seriously awful. If I didn't know how to tune a nib, I would have needed to return it. But ten minutes of my time and it was writing fine...

[Bo Bo Olson]

Buying online gets you often enough, misaligned tines in display boxes are not 70 yard punt proof packaging like Goulet(sp) packs his goods in, as the postal workers an robots boot you pen around.

You don't get misaligned nibs at a B&M, in they get their supplies on small pallets.

 

If you use P-Poor paper; you need butter smooth nibs; if you use better papers, good and smooth the level just under butter smooth that allows you some control on good or slick papers....and gives you a small enjoyable feel of the paper. 

 

I bought lots of old used pens....vintage, semi-vintage, so had micro-corrosion or 'iridium rust' causing drag on the nib from it sitting in the dark of the drawer for two or three generations.

 

.  Getting rid of that was but a minute or so's work with micro-mesh, getting butter smooth; which I only did to one of my 80 pens takes a lot of time and effort and with a loop not to ruin the nib. Only did it to see if I could.

 

Nor was I looking for it.............My new bought in '70/71 P-75 the top of the line American Pen from that era, would not be considered butter smooth today. A good and smooth top of the line nib.

 

I being from another era when when we had normal great paper, and when butter smooth was not something we knew nor thought about. Top of the line pens did have better smooth nibs than Esterbrooks or other school pens. (We was so ignorant pre-net....clean a pen Why?)

 

The Golden Age of Fountain pens died @ 1970 give or take.

The Golden Age of Papers died unnoticed in the sometime in the '80's and no one noticed, in we had turned into Ball Point Barbarians.

(Luckily we are living in The Golden age of Inks.....in a time when one has to hunt for good papers to make them dance.)

 

Butter smooth nibs skate on good slick paper....become work.

 

So getting better paper will make your nib smoother with out doing anything at all to the nib..........if you bought the thing in a B&M. If not nib alignment is easy enough to learn..... I remember the first time....by the third pen, don't even think about it.

Noobies buy good papers last. So using P-poor paper have to hunt for butter smooth nibs.

I can say I made a mistake of chasing good to better papers last after having lots of pens and inks. I suggest buying a ream or box of good to better papers every three inks you buy.

 

I seldom buy new pens but for the 200's. Which are more than  smooth enough....though not butter smooth writing on glass.

I have bought a few new pens, that are butter smooth, a Cross Townsend, nail, My MB Woolf, a wide B so butter smooth, my used 1005, butter smooth............bound to be a couple more....that don't register in I don't chase overly smoothed nibs; nor use them.

 

One needs having a toothy nib...one that writes like a pencil (not scratchy) to know what it's like. There are some that like such a nib. (I only have one.....which one it is....will come as a surprise the next time I use it.)

I have as I said some 5 or so Butter smooth nibs; yet I don't reach for those nibs often. they tend to be slippery on better papers...which I finally got around to getting.

 

If I was to write with  my 100-50% cotton paper, I could see reaching for a butter smooth nib. Might well do fine on Classic rough paper, laid or Linen Effect. I write with M or B on such papers....so don't worry about it.

 

But again, it's what do you want the nib to do....stubbed semi-flex as far as I can tell, was 'just' good and smooth......35 semi-flex, 14 maxi-semi-flex. Stubbed there's not a lot of tipping to try to make it a butter smooth nib.

 

Would 'wasting time' making my 20-25 semi-vintage and new 200's, regular flex pens butter smooth, give them a more comfortable ride? Or a better ride than a wet ink? Or a slick paper?

I'm not looking for uncontrolled gliding.

 

IMO nails and semi-nails have nothing to offer outside of being butter smooth.

But there is more to nibs than just butter smooth IMO. Buying better paper or a wetter ink could be an option.

 

 

 

 

[maclink]

10 hours ago, Bo Bo Olson said:

Buying online gets you often enough, misaligned tines in display boxes are not 70 yard punt proof packaging like Goulet(sp) packs his goods in, as the postal workers an robots boot you pen around.

You don't get misaligned nibs at a B&M, in they get their supplies on small pallets.

 

It would be better, of course, if possible, to purchase pens only from sellers that routinely check the nibs on pens sold, making adjustments/replacements where necessary to avoid a disappointed customer.  However, most of the retailers/resellers I've done business with, that sell mass produced pens, do not check the nibs prior to sending them out.  I think it's this distinction, rather than problems during transport/shipping, that needs to be emphasised.  The nib of a pen that is in its gift-box and also capped .... how can a tine misalignment occur in transport?  Now that's a stretch isn't it? 

 

[Dione]

I'm going to make myself a target here by saying I wouldn't swap any of my F-C nibs for any Pelikan ones.

[Bo Bo Olson]

6 hours ago, maclink said:

how can a tine misalignment occur in transport? 

Way back in analog days, just as zip codes were coming in, '60's a University, could have been Duke or Princeton, sent a package so they could measure the max impact a package took. The then postal office, full of folks that could read complicated words like "FRAGILE' or This Side Up, broke the gauge. Back when they were paid to care.

 

Oddly, I've not read of such studies in the digital days.

 

And it is not they adjust the nibs in the B&M, but they are delivered in small pallets. Which are more shock absorbent than small toss packages of display cases. Which are either not packed in even a single layer of bubble wrap or with one little do nothing in reality single layer of bubble wrap.

Postal workers today are fewer than once, so don't have any time if they did care, to take care.

 

I was very, very impressed with the package of some inks from Goulet (sp)  that I had waiting for me when I got a a motel I'd reserved rooms in from Germany. 5-6 layers of bubble wrap around the bubble wrap filled package. Post Office Proof packages. From my reading here, he does that for pens too.

 

A display case is to display, it is not an inside and outside packed for wild toss contest postal service of today package.

 

[Bo Bo Olson]

6 hours ago, Dione said:

I'm going to make myself a target here by saying I wouldn't swap any of my F-C nibs for any Pelikan ones.

OK, you are rather new and I assume a pure nail user?*

 

The 800 is just as much a nail as your F-C pens.....so there is that Pelikan nail to consider.

 

*It takes time to wander away from nails.

The below, has to do with Line Variation, a different course of study than smoothest at all costs.

No semi-flex Pelikan pens?

Which is for much later for you, IMO. They are sturdy enough to give you the 6-12 weeks they will give you to lighten your Hand,**  so the semi-flex is not always maxed. Took me some 6 weeks, 12 weeks so my Hand was light enough to Demand Line Variation when I wanted it.

Mine are good and smooth, and I do have to use good to better paper 90g/24# minimum, in I like shading inks.

 

Have you any good to better paper?

 

** One has to realize one is Ham Fisted first....a surprise to me, in it shouldn't have been in the teacher in 10th grade back in the '60's told us to hold our pens lighter....but couldn't tell us how in the 15 minute fountain pen instruction.

[sirgilbert357]

On 5/16/2021 at 5:48 AM, maclink said:

 

It would be better, of course, if possible, to purchase pens only from sellers that routinely check the nibs on pens sold, making adjustments/replacements where necessary to avoid a disappointed customer.  However, most of the retailers/resellers I've done business with, that sell mass produced pens, do not check the nibs prior to sending them out.  I think it's this distinction, rather than problems during transport/shipping, that needs to be emphasised.  The nib of a pen that is in its gift-box and also capped .... how can a tine misalignment occur in transport?  Now that's a stretch isn't it? 

 

 

It's QUITE a stretch, but this is something BoBo has been parroting for YEARS on this site...LOL.

 

If an impact during shipping were enough to just misalign the tines on a nib -- which have VERY LITTLE mass relative to their stiffness -- imagine what would happen to the rest of the pen. TWSBI's would never make it to their new owner without shattering during the trip, LOL.

[A Smug Dill]

1 hour ago, sirgilbert357 said:

If an impact during shipping were enough to just misalign the tines on a nib -- which have VERY LITTLE mass relative to their stiffness -- imagine what would happen to the rest of the pen.

 

I can't even begin to follow the ‘logic’ of the nib of a new pen being subjected to such forces in transit that the tines would become persistently misaligned. Given the nib is protected by the pen's cap (with or without an inner cap) — which does not physically touch the nib — there is just no way the nib's tines are being impacted by another object during transit, without breakage or displacement of the cap itself. Usually the capped pen lies loosely strapped on a cushioned bed inside a stiff rectangular ‘gift box’ container, which in turn is cushioned by bubble wrap, foam ‘peanuts’, sealed air pockets and/or other void fill material from the walls of the shipping carton. To think there would be a sufficient proportion of force transmitted from shipping carton wall to the pen itself after all that is incredible.

 

And then, if the tines on the nib would misalign so readily without springing back to their original shape and position, Heaven forbid if you allow the tip of the nib to have physical contact with the top sheet of a notepad or notebook, with the mass of the pen causing force to be exerted on the metal due to gravity!

[Bo Bo Olson]

Explain then how minimum wage non-trained pen tweeking sales people in a B&M sell  pens without misaligned nibs?

 

Why all sorts of folks buying through the rough postal services alone have these misalignment problems.

 

And blame it on the company.......who do test nibs, even if mechanically and  by sound for the steel nibs of the Lamy factory, which I saw. There was a little ol'Lady doing the tweeking as the pens tested on a big paper drum came off it, when those were kicked out. @ 1 in 16 needed a tweek or three.

 

All have seen videos of women testing gold nibs at Pelikan or other companies. (Gold nibs are more status full than steel nibs, but it is illogical to test one nib and not another. )

 

Occam's razor...QED.

It's not the company, it's the display box packing and rough handling.

 

As said back in Analog days when folks cared more; they busted the analog measuring device....and today's postal service is rougher between the mechanical sorting lines and human's having to work much faster, in there are many less of them.

 

Ever just bang a nib tip  just slightly?

I have and once or twice had to realign the nib.

 

Do explain how untrained B&M workers tweek nibs while you wait after you have discovered one.

Do they have time to test and tweek every pen or nib set that comes in?

No.

Why are their nibs in a B&M aligned?