It seems Tomoe River has just been discontinued.

[Naoki NISHIKAWA]

6 hours ago, Paul-in-SF said:

Societies are not designed. Societies happen based on the actions and values of the people in those societies,

 

Ah, touche. True. Acephalous process.

[Naoki NISHIKAWA]

3 hours ago, peroride said:

Thankfully Sakae Technical Paper Co. is considering substitutes and we still have options.

 

Good point.

[gerigo]

Let's look at the bigger picture shall we?

 

While we in the US, and correspondingly other parts of the world, have been idolizing Tomoe River paper for quite some time now, there is a new wave of paper that has been developed by other Japanese companies. The likes of Cosmo Light, Graphilo, Yamanoto paper, and lately Kokuyo with 3 types of paper for Fountain pen, pencil and one other type of pen that I did not even bother to pay attention to. While it will be hard for those who are devoted to the old Tomoe River not to bemoan it's demise, there are lots of options for us still out there. 

 

Incidentally Tomoe River was NOT designed primarily for fountain pen in mind. I believe that was developed for a very specific application, for which I forget. It might have been for planners or for the banking industry? In Japan, strangely Tomoe River is not idealized in the same way and only lately been seen as a brand. It was only during my last trip to Japan at the end of 2019 that Tomoe River as a brand started to appear. Japanese users have been enjoying Tomoe River in planners for many years but without the brand recognition.

[OleJuul]

It's sad to lose any paper from the market, though I'm not a fan of wooden papers generally. In case somebody is looking for a replacement Gnatural 60gsm 75% cotton 25% linen is similar in many respects.

 

 

[The-Thinker]

So I heard that they will be replacing the old TR paper made with the old machines it’s a new one that feels a bit different.

[A Smug Dill]

19 minutes ago, The-Thinker said:

So I heard that they will be replacing the old TR paper made with the old machines it’s a new one that feels a bit different.

 

"Will be", so you mean in the future, and not something that happened a while back (irrespective of when you actually got wind of the news)?

[The-Thinker]

27 minutes ago, A Smug Dill said:

 

"Will be", so you mean in the future, and not something that happened a while back (irrespective of when you actually got wind of the news)?

Well the news of tr being discontinued (at least for the purpose of being used in notebooks) was presented a year before. The company said that the old machine stopped functioning and a newer machine will start with the production of the paper. As of this year the new paper has been out and the way to differentiate the new from old is by the “N” present on the package. Some companies still have old stock left but i believe it will all end by the end of this year in terms of notebooks are concerned. There have been comparisons made old vs new TR paper here in the following link .https://macchiatoman.com/blog/2020/8/20/paper-comparison-new-52gsm-tomoe-river-vs-old?fbclid=IwAR2crFgzEqojkIYipAi9T8Cfhog00vW2xxDVaLjvqT9wSkVuf7JlALvJi1o

[CityPop]

I think the key/reason for confusion here is that: Sakae TP and Tomoegawa, AFAIK, are separate entities. I messaged Tomoegawa on social media, and the paper is being made(New Stock, no.9 machine). To me, this announcement just means that the previous stock of old TR paper has finally run out(after quite a few months) and any new looseleaf paper or notebooks, will eventually be sold with the new TR paper. It is possible that SakaeTP will cease making notebooks with TR paper, but I find that hard to believe.

Please feel free to correct me!

[Karmachanic]

On 5/9/2021 at 8:15 AM, Naoki NISHIKAWA said:

 

Right. Tomoegawa Co., Ltd. seems to have said since the production of the particular paper had been in red big time, they had no choice but to stop the production. And that's, eh, sad.

 

 

Please provide a link. Can't paste a screen capture into a translator. Thank you.

[Naoki NISHIKAWA]

15 minutes ago, Karmachanic said:

 

Please provide a link. Can't paste a screen capture into a translator. Thank you.

 

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwjm1L7X5r7wAhXDPXAKHd0-D8wQFjAAegQIAhAD&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.saa.or.jp%2Fdc%2Fevent%2Fapps%2Fcompany%2FCompanyBriefingSummaryShowList.do%3FgoExec%3D%26evtId%3D013483&usg=AOvVaw0y74M8i8Of13F_vMhH39tj

[Karmachanic]

Thank you.

 

Yandex Translate:

 

it's about a special loss from here. We originally called it the functional paper business, but there are three businesses in our functional paper business. One is the western paper business, which we call old electro-magnetic paper, or Tomoe River, which is a conventional paper manufacturer made from so-called wood pulp that also makes western paper.Paper business.

 

In addition, the field of functional paper is made by incorporating special fibers and inorganic materials such as stainless fiber sheets, fluorine fiber sheets, and copper fiber sheets into paper. Then there are three fields of coated paper

 

Mainly this western paper, the business of old western paper is that cash is no longer out due to a very high price of pulp. I have been operating in a business deficit for many years, but this business is operating in a business deficit, so I have maintained it because I have generated operating cash flow as it is, but the price of pulp has really risen from 1.5 times to about 2 times, so variable costs have risen rapidly, and there is still operating cash flow, but maintenance.  Considering the cost, we concluded that it would be difficult to secure free cash flow, and as a result, we decided to stop 12 large paper machines at the end of this year 1.

[Naoki NISHIKAWA]

2 hours ago, Karmachanic said:

we concluded that it would be difficult to secure free cash flow, and as a result, we decided to stop 12 large paper machines at the end of this year 1.

 

Please note that the above was said on 3 June 2019. So, the above is BACKGROUND information. 

[gyasko]

14 hours ago, gerigo said:

Let's look at the bigger picture shall we?

 

While we in the US, and correspondingly other parts of the world, have been idolizing Tomoe River paper for quite some time now, there is a new wave of paper that has been developed by other Japanese companies. The likes of Cosmo Light, Graphilo, Yamanoto paper, and lately Kokuyo with 3 types of paper for Fountain pen, pencil and one other type of pen that I did not even bother to pay attention to. While it will be hard for those who are devoted to the old Tomoe River not to bemoan it's demise, there are lots of options for us still out there. 

 

Incidentally Tomoe River was NOT designed primarily for fountain pen in mind. I believe that was developed for a very specific application, for which I forget. It might have been for planners or for the banking industry? In Japan, strangely Tomoe River is not idealized in the same way and only lately been seen as a brand. It was only during my last trip to Japan at the end of 2019 that Tomoe River as a brand started to appear. Japanese users have been enjoying Tomoe River in planners for many years but without the brand recognition.

 

 

I believe 52gsm TR paper was also used for reference books such as dictionaries.

[bunnspecial]

39 minutes ago, gyasko said:

I believe 52gsm TR paper was also used for reference books such as dictionaries.

 

The weight/feel of it is very similar to what I'd call Bible Paper, although in my experience(taking notes on page) many Bibles have "slick" paper that none the less isn't super FP friendly. Since a full Old+New Testament Bible typically runs 1000-1500 pages depending on page, print size, and amount of annotation(I think my own study Bible to 2000 with about an 8pt font on paper that's about 6.5x8.5" and sometimes 3/4 of a page of footnotes). You want a thin paper when dealing with that size book if you intend it to be portable.

 

I seem to recall, though, reading that Tomoe River was meant as a mail advertising paper because it would be inexpensive to mail. That's one of the things that those of who write letters still take advantage of.

 

BTW, I am looking at buying 4000 sheets of it. It can be bought for around $110 using a shipping forwarder, but the one I'm using hasn't actually given me a shipping quote yet. Even with as light as the paper is, 4000 sheets still weighs a lot. If I'm doing my math right, 4000 sheets of A4 should be about 250 m^2, which for a 52gsm paper is about 13kg.

[A Smug Dill]

20 hours ago, CityPop said:

I just purchased a 4k sheet pack using a forwarding service.

29 minutes ago, bunnspecial said:

I am looking at buying 4000 sheets of it. It can be bought for around $110 using a shipping forwarder,

 

That's the spirit.

 

(I almost did that once, at least two years ago and long before COVID was a thing, but the shipping even by sea completely dwarfed the price of the paper itself. Glad I didn't proceed, because on second thought I decided to get a pack of each type of loose sheet even if it was relatively poor value on a per-sheet cost basis… and then discovered I wasn't impressed at all by TR paper.)

[The-Thinker]

2 hours ago, bunnspecial said:

 

The weight/feel of it is very similar to what I'd call Bible Paper, although in my experience(taking notes on page) many Bibles have "slick" paper that none the less isn't super FP friendly. Since a full Old+New Testament Bible typically runs 1000-1500 pages depending on page, print size, and amount of annotation(I think my own study Bible to 2000 with about an 8pt font on paper that's about 6.5x8.5" and sometimes 3/4 of a page of footnotes). You want a thin paper when dealing with that size book if you intend it to be portable.

 

I seem to recall, though, reading that Tomoe River was meant as a mail advertising paper because it would be inexpensive to mail. That's one of the things that those of who write letters still take advantage of.

 

BTW, I am looking at buying 4000 sheets of it. It can be bought for around $110 using a shipping forwarder, but the one I'm using hasn't actually given me a shipping quote yet. Even with as light as the paper is, 4000 sheets still weighs a lot. If I'm doing my math right, 4000 sheets of A4 should be about 250 m^2, which for a 52gsm paper is about 13kg.

Do you have an idea if the company will send you the old version or new version of TR paper ?

 

[Karmachanic]

14 hours ago, CityPop said:

I think the key/reason for confusion here is that: Sakae TP and Tomoegawa, AFAIK, are separate entities. I messaged Tomoegawa on social media, and the paper is being made(New Stock, no.9 machine). To me, this announcement just means that the previous stock of old TR paper has finally run out(after quite a few months) and any new looseleaf paper or notebooks, will eventually be sold with the new TR paper. It is possible that SakaeTP will cease making notebooks with TR paper, but I find that hard to believe.

 

I feel this assesment to be correct, especially as the subsequent Tomoegawa quote was from 2019. I too doubt TR paper has been discontinued, given that they reformulated the paper last year, and are producing that reformulated paper with new machines. Both of which would require significant investment.

 

 "In order to maintain stable quality and supply of Tomoe River, Tomoegawa has recently changed its manufacturing process. We believe it's beneficial to our customers. We're committed to providing high quality papers to meet your needs. Background: In Dec. 2019,Tomoegawa has ended Tomoe River production at the old machinery and moved to new machinery since Apr. 2020. Product Name: Products made at the new machinery has suffix -N after the grammage (e.g. -52N). It can be distinguished from the old machinery products. Thickness: Typical thickness of 52g/m2 paper is 60u for both old and new machinery. There's no change. Ink bleed through: New machinery papers maintain low ink bleedthrough characteristic. In some type of oil and water based pens, new machinery papers show better performance. Ink feathering: New machinery papers maintain low ink feathering characteristic. Uniformity of pulp fiber orientation: New machinery papers have better uniformity of pulp fiber orientation than the old machinery papers. Friction pen erasability: Friction pen can be more easily erased on new papers because the coating surface of new papers is stronger than the previous one and less crinkly. Stiffness: New machinery papers are relatively stiffer than the old machinery papers. As a result, when a large number of sheet is accumulated, it tends to have larger thickness than the old machinery papers."

 

https://m.facebook.com/1927946697427918/posts/2639822839573630/

[SpecTP]

damn.. I only have 11 nanami writer notebooks left... I'll have to stock up the next time I see any available.

[gerigo]

On 5/10/2021 at 9:24 PM, gyasko said:

 

 

I believe 52gsm TR paper was also used for reference books such as dictionaries.

 Ah yes. That was the special application I forgot. 

[peroride]

On 5/10/2021 at 9:38 AM, Karmachanic said:

Thickness: Typical thickness of 52g/m2 paper is 60u for both old and new machinery.

Excellent, this new machinery with similar quality is good news to me! 

 

Alls i know is when i use TR or bible stock as bunnspecial notes, i can cram in more pages with my notebooks than with thicker stuff and it's extra fine nib friendly.

 

I look forward to getting some of the N designated paper