Japan Lacquer : How much do you know about lacquer?

[Karmachanic]

My understanding is that 'roiro' means polishing. So you'd have a stealth polished black urushi 149. Stealth because only you would know it's urushi.

 

I'd go Kuro-Tamennuri. Mostly black with a little red poking out on the threads, lip of the cap, and perhaps the tip of the piston knob.

 

Like this: (image, obviously, from Iguanasell)

 

Nakaya-Neo-Standard-Kuro-Tamenuri-Fountain-Pen-Ebonite-Urushi-lacquer-5_958de222-82e4-4939-a27a-9a3733965d79_2000x.webp

[Nurmister]

28 minutes ago, Karmachanic said:

My understanding is that 'roiro' means polishing. So you'd have a stealth polished black urushi 149. Stealth because only you would know it's urushi.

 

I'd go Kuro-Tamennuri. Mostly black with a little red poking out on the threads, lip of the cap, and perhaps the tip of the piston knob.

 

Like this: (image, obviously, from Iguanasell)

 

Nakaya-Neo-Standard-Kuro-Tamenuri-Fountain-Pen-Ebonite-Urushi-lacquer-5_958de222-82e4-4939-a27a-9a3733965d79_2000x.webp 46.89 kB · 1 download

 

Great point there, I've always admired Nakaya's work with Aka, Heki, Midori, Toki, and Kuro-Tamenuri, with Kuro-Tamenuri being my favorite for its subtlety. It would probably look great on a 149, highlighting the creases and functional points of the pen. I love how the finishes remind me of toffee:

[Honeybadgers]

On 4/13/2021 at 10:51 PM, GoofyGame said:

 

It's a great challenge!  Is your skin condition okay?

 

 Your skin has an allergic reaction and has lacquer dermatitis.  It lasts 4 to 14 days.  Wash all skin and attached clothing with soap.  Do not touch rashes or blisters.  If you crush it, the allergy will spread again from there.  I hope your skin will heal completely.

 

by "pain" I meant "difficult"

 

I'm using a hypoallergenic urushinol (though it's not the super pure stuff, it's definitely urushi). I also wear gloves.

 

 

[MartinPauli]

I have just posted in another post about the difference of Chinese andd Japanese urushi and think I should ad it here

Both lacquers, Chinese as well as Japanese are almost the same quality.

Chinese urushi smells sourish while Japanese urushi smells sweet. The reason is the different way of harvesting. In Japan the tree is cut on only sunny days and the sap is collected immediately. In China the sap is collected at any weather condition. The tree is cut and a shell is positioned under the cut to hold the sap. The shells are collected in the evening or a day later. The sap while remaining in the shell for longer time is contaminated by dust and insects and a sort of fermentation has taken place. As a result, Japanese urushi is much more transparent than Chinese.

Some of my extremely quality oriented Japanese urushi lacquer friends further on keep the processed "Sukurome Urushi" in a container for many years. Over the years, segments are formed, at the top the most liquid, finest and most transparent quality with the highest content of urushiol. In the middle we find a good quality of lacquer, which is used for the middle layers. the sediment contains little urushiol and is used for the foundations. The sediment cures within shortest time, the top segment is fragile and difficult to cure but once cured the layer becomes extremely hard, close to glass. The Urushi I am currently using was collected in 1997.

[GoofyGame]

Thank you Martin, 

 

Who is the Japanese you are based on? Since Wajima-輪島- lacquer ware is a division of labor, it has a bad reputation in Japan and is often mixed with oil. There are a few genuine traditional craftsmen in Joboji-浄法寺- lacquer ware and Kiso-木曽- lacquer ware. Of course, there are many shops that make lacquer ware that has a bad reputation in that area. Which area did you ask the lacquer expert? Those who claim that Chinese lacquer and Japanese lacquer are the same are those who make expensive products using Chinese lacquer or those who mix oil with lacquer and sell it at a high price. Real Japanese lacquer and Chinese lacquer are different. The ingredients are different from the process of collecting the liquid, and the finishing process is also different. And here is the most important. There are very few top Japanese craftsmen who can handle 100% special-viscous Japanese lacquer, so no one can explain in detail the difference between Chinese lacquer and Japanese products in English. Who did you confirm with? They can't speak English but they can talk about the truth about lacquer. we can't talk to them without a special connection.

 

＞Both lacquers, Chinese as well as Japanese are almost the same quality.　

 I don`t think so, because they who All Real tradditional craftsmans use both lacquers for long time, they will answer No.

 

＞Chinese urushi smells sourish while Japanese urushi smells sweet. The reason is the different way of harvesting.　

＞s a result, Japanese urushi is much more transparent than Chinese.

And you yourself did explain that these are in different states. In other words, you did admite that the quality is also different.

 

Anyway, do you have a strong impression of my English? Ummm...I'm sorry because English is difficult.

[GoofyGame]

荒味漆-aramiurushi-
This is lacquer that also contains impurities that have been collected.

 

生漆-kiurushi-
This is lacquer with only impurities removed easily. The cheapest of all lacquer. Therefore, recent lacquer writers tend to use this cheap lacquer. It is opaque yellow. Contains wood chips and small debris.

 

精製漆-seiseiurushi-
This is made by stirring the lacquer for a long time in order to remove the water and make the rubber component uniform. The color of lacquer also improves. The basic method is to use this lacquer. Refined lacquer is more expensive than raw lacquer.

What is 精製漆-seiseiurushi-？?
Lacquer should not be used as it is. Be sure to mix to reduce the water content of the lacquer. The mixing process evens out the rubberiness of the lacquer ingredients. This refining work is called くろめ-Kurome- and なやし-Nayashi-.

 

What is なやし-nayashi-?
By mixing lacquer, the rubber is agitated and made uniform. This is a water-soluble polysaccharide.

 

What is くろめ-kurome-?
It is a work to stir and reduce the water content of lacquer. In modern Japan, 99% of this work is done mechanically. The remaining 1% is made by hand stirring Japanese lacquer. This makes a big difference. This description will be written in the description column for the wax finish.

 

What is Chinese lacquer?
Chinese lacquer is of very good quality. And the quality of refined Chinese lacquer is higher quallity than that of unprocessed raw lacquer made in Japan. In other words, refining is a very important task in lacquer.

 

Price difference
日本産精製漆＞日本産生漆＞中国産精製漆＞中国産生漆

 

Quality difference
日本産精製漆＞中国産精製漆＞日本産生漆＞中国産生漆

 

Chinese and Japanese lacquers are not the same, but as Mr.MartinPauli explained I don't think there is a difference in quality as much as the price difference. 

[GoofyGame]

From now on I will explain the difference in gloss of the wax finish-蝋色Roiro-.

 

Raw lacquer is not suitable for application due to its high water content. Generally, if you refine lacquer with a machine and apply it with that lacquer, the paint will already have a high gloss ratio. When the rubber of lacquer is agitated by a machine, molecules such as urushiol, rubber and laccase become finer, and the dry surface becomes even denser, resulting in gloss. On the other hand, if the lacquer is manually refined, water will remain. Manual lacquer refining also roughens the molecules. The lacquered and dry surface is not dense and rough, so the percentage of luster is low.

 

So why do traditional lacquer ware craftsmen manually make refined lacquer? 🤔

 

There are several reasons for that. By adjusting the gloss ratio to reduce the gloss, consumers can increase the gloss themselves. When consumers wash, use, or wipe lacquer ware, it becomes glossier. The lacquer master intentionally makes unfinished matte lacquer ware. We want consumers to use lacquer ware for a long period of 10, 20, and 30 years, and let consumers complete the luster of lacquer and feel love for it. Semi-gloss hand-refined lacquer ware does not easily become 100% gloss lacquer ware soon. They also calculated it. They can also make 100% glossy lacquer ware, depending on the orderer. But they say. A lacquer ware with a glossy finish that is 100% glossy will only deteriorate afterwards. The idea of a master craftsman is that increasing the luster of lacquer ware has auspicious meaning by consumers.

[Karmachanic]

Urushi and Chemistry

https://www.chemistryworld.com/features/illuminating-lacquer-layers/3004637.article

[GoofyGame]

Now that I have explained why lacquer materials are expensive, let's explain why lacquer products are expensive.  The base food craft is made by professional craftsmen who make wood products after the wood is completely dry.  After that, apply lacquer many times and sharpen it many times.  Please see the attached photo of the basic process.  

 

Lacquer fountain pens are only basic undercoat → medium sharpening → topcoat.  The amount of lacquer used is less than that of lacquer ware, and most use lacquer that does not mix only the topcoat.  The number of times to apply lacquer is generally about 2 to 6 times.  The number of times lacquer is applied depends on the skill and technique of the craftsman.

 

Finally, Finally, I will compare synthetic lacquer ware and Joboji lacquer ware.  This Joboji lacquer ware uses 100% Japanese-made Joboji lacquer  in all processes. Notice the reflection of light.  And no matter what the pigment, the shade of red will also be different from synthetic lacquer.  If you understand the cost of lacquer and the manufacturing process of lacquer ware, it will be easy to imagine whether the product has a reasonable margin, processing fee, cost and brand fee.

 

Thank you for reading the long topic.  And I would like to thank the people who wrote their opinions with a lot of interest 😉🙂

[GoofyGame]

I don't know this comment how to delete...

[GoofyGame]

2 hours ago, Karmachanic said:

Urushi and Chemistry

https://www.chemistryworld.com/features/illuminating-lacquer-layers/3004637.article

Thank you  Karmachanic,

 

The description of the ingredients of lacquer later in this article is excellent.  However, the first half is a Western-style restoration method that emphasizes efficiency.  The master of lacquer is famous not only for making works, but also for understanding the weakness and deterioration of lacquer and repairing and repairing it.  Due to its durability, Japanese Restoration Masters do not mix chemicals that did not exist for a long time.  Because that act undermines tradition.  And this article is about the art classes that the museum deals with.  That is not the purpose of my topic.  Even in Japan, there are craftsmen who easily mix chemicals for repairs due to lack of technical skills, but they are not recognized as masters of lacquer.

 

Lacquer is a strong coating applied to battleships and armor, but it is not good at sunlight.  And it is basic to wash with water.  For everyday pens and vessels, I think you don't have to worry about whether the water you wash is mineral water, or soft water.

[Karmachanic]

The first half of the article presents the reader with information which may be of value to those who own urushi pens, in that it speaks to care and cleaning of urushi, and is, therefore pertinent to the title of this article "How Much Do You Know About Lacquer".

 

The second half of the article speaks to urushi itself and also presents useful information,  about the qualities, make-up and characteristics, which may also add to "How Much Do You Know About Lacquer" and may also add to reader's understanding.

[ZeroDukE]

I love this thread.  Beautifully explained!  Very interesting topic this one.  Thank you.

[MartinPauli]

On 4/27/2021 at 6:36 AM, GoofyGame said:

Thank you Martin, 

 

Who is the Japanese you are based on? Since Wajima-輪島- lacquer ware is a division of labor, it has a bad reputation in Japan and is often mixed with oil. There are a few genuine traditional craftsmen in Joboji-浄法寺- lacquer ware and Kiso-木曽- lacquer ware. Of course, there are many shops that make lacquer ware that has a bad reputation in that area. Which area did you ask the lacquer expert? Those who claim that Chinese lacquer and Japanese lacquer are the same are those who make expensive products using Chinese lacquer or those who mix oil with lacquer and sell it at a high price. Real Japanese lacquer and Chinese lacquer are different. The ingredients are different from the process of collecting the liquid, and the finishing process is also different. And here is the most important. There are very few top Japanese craftsmen who can handle 100% special-viscous Japanese lacquer, so no one can explain in detail the difference between Chinese lacquer and Japanese products in English. Who did you confirm with? They can't speak English but they can talk about the truth about lacquer. we can't talk to them without a special connection.

 

＞Both lacquers, Chinese as well as Japanese are almost the same quality.　

 I don`t think so, because they who All Real tradditional craftsmans use both lacquers for long time, they will answer No.

 

＞Chinese urushi smells sourish while Japanese urushi smells sweet. The reason is the different way of harvesting.　

＞s a result, Japanese urushi is much more transparent than Chinese.

And you yourself did explain that these are in different states. In other words, you did admite that the quality is also different.

 

Anyway, do you have a strong impression of my English? Ummm...I'm sorry because English is difficult.

 

Thank you GoofyGaame,

 

To answer your questions:

My dearest Lacquer friend lives and works in Kanagawa.

He is a extremely traditional lacquer worker, focussed on nuritate on everyday products. He also introduced me to Wakamiya Takashi running the Hikôju Studio in Wajima

 

The other friend who taps urushi lives in Austria now. He tapped urushi in the mountains of Nagano, only the purest  65 to 80 grams per tree.

 

Further on I am in good exchange with Mr. Günther Heckmann, he is a restorer of urushi and author of the book Urushi no Waza, also he is the only sworn-in expert of urushi in the EU. He learned the trade from Tamizô Saratani, a maki-e artist and restorer.

 

Neither me nor all my fellow lacquerers in Japan use oil to dilute urushi

 

When I say Chinese and Japanese urushi is of same quality I mean from scientistic labs we learn, that the containing substances like gum, urushiol and wate rare very similar, the processing of coarse is different

 

In the library on my website you can find many publöications on oriental lacquer

https://www.manupropria-pens.ch/welcome/Library.html

 

Roiro

I agree with you on the Yô no Bi effect on Nuritate products, when the matte urushi get glossy at the parts worn my hands and tratment.

 

For my Ebonite base pens I use a foundation made of Nakanuri and carbon powder. Then between 8 and 40 layers of lacquer follows, depending on the complexity oft he Kawarinuri

 

 

[jandrese]

On 4/15/2021 at 6:29 AM, Nurmister said:

 

Thank you for this extra detail. This reminds me of Japanese Zaratsu polishing for metals which does not allow for distortion even when applied to curved surfaces. This is in comparison to cheaper Western polishing methods which polish curved objects like they are flat, leading to distortions following the curvature of the metal. I don't quite remember where I first heard about this kind of polishing, perhaps something to do with Japanese blade-polishing.

 

I'm still looking for the source on extra details concerning the number of Urushi layers, by the way. I'll update you when I find it. I remember reading it so clearly, just not where...

 

In any case, your descriptions of the care behind Urushi artistry are tempting me to sell my Montblancs to buy into a Namiki! Montblanc creates wonderful pens, but after years of analyzing their tiny details, I realize they are simply well-designed mass-produced objects, particularly in regards to their modern nibs. Namikis seem different.

 

 

Edit: a picture of what I mean by "Japanese blade polishing":

 

Edit 2; After some research, it seems the term "Zaratsu polishing" itself is specific to a Japanese watchmaker which uses it for their watch cases, although I believe blade black-polishing uses similar principles. Quite beautiful:

Hello, zaratsu polishing is the name that Grand Seiko uses to black polish watch cases. The technique is Swiss, that is, it uses Swiss machines with spinning tin plates. It is hand work that requires much skill so no wonder the Japanese are the foremost practitioners of this technique. Normally, on Swiss watches only small parts are black polished, that is, specular or mirror finished. Some Citizen and Minase watches also make use of the same technique. Note, that aside from being a craft art that this technique has absolutely nothing to do with the polish on Japanese swords. Also, nothing to do with urushi and maki-e arts.

[Nurmister]

(deleted, duplicate post)

[Nurmister]

26 minutes ago, jandrese said:

Hello, zaratsu polishing is the name that Grand Seiko uses to black polish watch cases. The technique is Swiss, that is, it uses Swiss machines with spinning tin plates. It is hand work that requires much skill so no wonder the Japanese are the foremost practitioners of this technique. Normally, on Swiss watches only small parts are black polished, that is, specular or mirror finished. Some Citizen and Minase watches also make use of the same technique. Note, that aside from being a craft art that this technique has absolutely nothing to do with the polish on Japanese swords. Also, nothing to do with urushi and maki-e arts.

 

You're right, while the outcomes might be the similar (an even mirror-like finish), I realize the techniques to achieve them is different between the two polishing techniques. As for the analogy to urushi, I was simply saying the roiro urushi is really reflective in a way resin often isn't!

 

On an unrelated note for @GoofyGame, an update on the "number of layers" question: I found in this video John Lane mentions 40 or so layers of urushi are used for a maki-e Emperor: not exactly what I mentioned about "45 for the regular roiro urushi no. 50", although Martin Pauli's wonderful manu propia site mentions 30-50 layers for other kinds of urushi finishes. Ultimately, along with the case of "three layers for the Custom Urushi" either I'm misremembering (more likely), or the source for the numbers simply escapes me, even after all the reading I have done over the last week or so!

[Pierre---]

Thank you GoofyGame for opening this topic. Please let me add my point of view, which comes from my practice of Urushi.

 

About price, something which must be taken into account are the base layers. You cannot see them, notice them, but they will make a huge difference as time goes on : proper primer layers leads to a very good durability (could be centuries), bad one - or none - means no durability. A pen needs around 10 layers or more to hold well in time (say at least 30 for a soup bowl...), that is two weeks work. The only way to guess they are properly set is to trust the maker... who is supposed to price the object accordingly.

 

About Japanese Urushi vs Chinese, I can only quote my Kyoto Urushi sensei: nobody can know the provenance of the lacquer by the sight of the object. The Japanese urushi is more consistent in quality, so that when you want a precise thing (curing quickly for instance), it could be the way to go. But the result could be the same with Chinese Urushi, even if the process could be different and maybe more difficult to handle. So I don't think using Japanese Urushi is an indication of quality.

 

I am French, and I know that nobody can tell for sure if a wine stayed in wooden casks for years or in a steel tank, just by drinking it, and drinking is the most important thing about wine. 😀   However, some winemakers spend a huge quantity of money to buy fresh barrels every year, because they know they can reach the quality they want with them.

When you see a piece of furniture, you cannot guess the price of the saw that was used to make it. But some joiners buy very expensive saws...

 

 

[steve50]

We appreciate urushi lacquerware including urushi lacquered pens for their functionality and beauty. The function of preserving the material underneath is achieved by using good quality lacquers and applying them fastidiously using many layers. The beauty is achieved by the natural textures and hues of urushi lacquer itself as well as the intricate techniques used in applying it to the object. In both, the quality of the lacquer itself plays some role, but it is relatively minor (provided one isn't using the poorest quality materials). So I believe this excessive and almost exclusive focus on the ingredients themselves distracts us from why we enjoy urushi works. If I enjoy listening to Miles Davis, it's not because of the quality of the instrument he's using, even though that must have played some part in creating the overall enjoyment. I feel it's the same with urushi pens - it's the overall experience of the object we find pleasant, not the quality of the raw material. As Martin and Pierre say, you can't really tell the difference anyway. 

[GoofyGame]

I'm now coming to see the master of Joboji lacquer.

 

This is a Tamenuri-溜塗り-, but lacquer does not accumulate in the dents and grooves.  Because, when lacquer is accumulated, the lacquer coating becomes too thick.  This causes the surface to shrink and lacquering fails.  Therefore, you can judge the authenticity by whether or not this pool is properly brushed.

 

#漆 #tamenuri #溜塗り #浄法寺塗り #urushi # 浄法寺漆

 

 

For your information.  This is a way to see if the lacquer is really 100% lacquered.  If lacquer accumulates in the same place, the surface of that place will shrink.  Therefore, the lacquer master does not collect lacquer in the groove.  Watch carefully to see if the lacquer has accumulated in the groove.  If this lacquer pool is always thick, you may need to contact the artist for more information on the lacquer ware.

 

This is the same with the Tame-nuri-溜塗-technique.  At the end, the lacquer is made with clear brown lacquer to create a gradation, but the lacquer is not accumulated in the groove.

 

If lacquer is accumulated, it is most likely a mixed lacquer brush or machine sprayed diluted lacquer.