Japan Lacquer : How much do you know about lacquer?

[GoofyGame]

17 minutes ago, Aether said:

The tree used for to get the lacquer is called Toxicodendron vernicifluum.   Not specific to Japan, found all over the countries of Asia commonly known as the Chinese lacquer.  There is not a Japanese lacquer tree.

Hi Aither, you're right.  It's the same kind of tree.  The value of urushiol changes due to the influence of soil and environment.  In fact, it has a great effect on moisture, viscosity and hardening.  Conditions also change during the process of refining lacquer.

[GoofyGame]

On 4/13/2021 at 12:55 AM, Nurmister said:

Sure thing, take your time. I'm very curious.

 

Hmm, about your quiz...

 

If you are talking about just lacquer pens instead of other appliances too (plates, bowls, etc.), like those from Japanese pen manufacturers, I would initially say most of their production is pure lacquer. Again, taking as an example Pilot pens: given your explanation of how pure lacquer behaves around, say, screws, I now understand why the Pilot Custom Urushi does not have lacquered end caps -- only the body is lacquered. This is perhaps evidence that they use pure lacquer which cannot be applied to the end caps properly. The other manufacturers, too, do not make mention of mixing.

 

However, after more thought still, I wonder if that is really true. I've noticed that all the Urushi pens I've seen are quite shiny. I thought that was just because of polishing -- but perhaps they mix oil, making the lacquer impure? I'm looking at some Youtube videos now of old Japanese bowls, and indeed all of the lacquer is matt-finished! And so my answer is: option 1. How strange.

Thank you for answering the quiz! My explanation was lacking. The answer is not only the lacquer pen, but also the lacquer bowl. Your answer is correct. 99% of the products sold as lacquer products are synthetic lacquer or artificial paints such as cashew paints and urethane paints.

 

Pilot custom Urushi costs less than $ 1000 in Japan. If all of this shaft is finished with 100% lacquer, it will cost more than $ 1000. I expect that the reason why only the barrel is lacquered is to reduce costs. I have more information on this pen, but if you are interested please ask the pilot directly.

 

I have to add one thing about matte lacquer. Matte lacquer uses a technique called "塗り立て nuritate".  Glossy barrel, which are cheaper, are more likely to be oil&lacquer. If the price is less than $ 300, it is very likely that it is not 100% lacquer. Because manual brushing has a high processing fee, we cannot offer lacquer, which is more expensive than silver, for less than $ 300. Pilot's sterling silver pen costs $ 500, so pure lacquer should cost more than silver.

 

If the lacquer you see is shiny for a price of $ 1000 or more, it is a technique called "蝋色仕上げ Roiro-shiage". Polish the dull lacquer over time. This is also a time-consuming task.

 

About the lacquer shaft that I recommend. It's best to ask a master lacquer artist, but the next recommended method is a Sailor. Sailors do not make their own products, but ask craftsmen from famous lacquer producing areas to make them. Sailor answered all my nerdy questions. Pilot and Pelikan also gave detailed answers. We asked all manufacturers for details, but only Nakaya refused to answer. They only publish details of nibs and ebonite. Regarding the lacquer on their page, it is written in Japanese, "Please see the pages of other lacquer ware companies."

 

So, this is the true process of lacquer work. Also, many craftsmen are involved in making the base lacquer shaft before painting.

 

If the lacquer is genuine, we will disclose the information like this. Would you be rejected to hear the material at a nice French restaurant? I bet the chef will confidently answer the origin of the ingredients.

 

Sailor Genji Monogatari

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hn8jVZ0yCko&t=3s

[Nurmister]

32 minutes ago, GoofyGame said:

....

 

Ah, thank you for the details! There was one term you used that had slipped my mind previously -- "roiro urushi". That's exactly what Pilot uses for their Namiki No 20 and No 50 (the Emperor).  Those pens retail for 1500 and 2000 USD respectively. It thus appears that these pens are lacquered with pure (Japanese) lacquer, and the shininess is imparted not through oils but rather the technique of polishing.  I believe something like 40+ coats are brushed onto the pen over a few months of production, which tallies with what you are describing here. This is from memory though, so I may not be exactly correct about the numbers.

 

As for what you said about the Pilot Custom Urushi (and not the Namikis aforementioned), noted -- and as far as I know, only three layers of lacquer are brushed onto it. So it likely is a matter of cost, and indeed the pen can be purchased for less than a 1000 USD.

 

Edit: from the Namiki website:

 

"The Urushi Collection brings the large size No.50 pen nib fountain pen of the early 1930's, dubbed “No.50 Jumbo”, to the present.
The ink stopping function is also the same as that of the original. The beauty is deepened by using non-oil lacquer
for the final coat and a polishing method called “Roiro Urushi Shiage (Non-oil lacquer finish)”,
where the process of repeatedly rubbing in raw lacquer after polishing with a special charcoal.
We have also prepared a size No .20 pen nib fountain pen."

 

 

Thanks again for the details. I previously thought all lacquer was essentially the same.

[Karmachanic]

47 minutes ago, Nurmister said:

I previously thought all lacquer was essentially the same

 

Take a look at the two links in the second post in this thread.

[GoofyGame]

6 hours ago, Nurmister said:

 

Ah, thank you for the details! There was one term you used that had slipped my mind previously -- "roiro urushi". That's exactly what Pilot uses for their Namiki No 20 and No 50 (the Emperor).  Those pens retail for 1500 and 2000 USD respectively. It thus appears that these pens are lacquered with pure (Japanese) lacquer, and the shininess is imparted not through oils but rather the technique of polishing.  I believe something like 40+ coats are brushed onto the pen over a few months of production, which tallies with what you are describing here. This is from memory though, so I may not be exactly correct about the numbers.

 

As for what you said about the Pilot Custom Urushi (and not the Namikis aforementioned), noted -- and as far as I know, only three layers of lacquer are brushed onto it. So it likely is a matter of cost, and indeed the pen can be purchased for less than a 1000 USD.

 

Edit: from the Namiki website:

 

"The Urushi Collection brings the large size No.50 pen nib fountain pen of the early 1930's, dubbed “No.50 Jumbo”, to the present.
The ink stopping function is also the same as that of the original. The beauty is deepened by using non-oil lacquer
for the final coat and a polishing method called “Roiro Urushi Shiage (Non-oil lacquer finish)”,
where the process of repeatedly rubbing in raw lacquer after polishing with a special charcoal.
We have also prepared a size No .20 pen nib fountain pen."

 

 

Thanks again for the details. I previously thought all lacquer was essentially the same.

 

I was surprised at your knowledge.   Your opinion is very correct about Pilot Custom Urushi-not Namiki-.  Pilot is a very polite and reliable company, but did not give details regarding Custom Urushi.  In other words, not all processes may be handmade or Japanese lacquer(mixed other pure lacquer).  

 

However, I like Pilot custom Urushi because the quality of the nibs and barrels is good for the amount of money.  The feel is also the softness of pure lacquer.  Actually I contacted Pilot directly for more information on this pen. Could I ask how did you understand the details?  Is there an English site that details Pilot Custom Urushi?

 

I need to learn from you.

[GoofyGame]

I will explain the reason why lacquer is expensive from the beginning.

 

First, a professional craftsman collects lacquer liquid from the lacquer tree.  Craftsmen manually collect each tree little by little.  Only 200ml can be collected from a single lacquer tree in a year. This amount is less than a small milk bottle and cannot be collected like maple syrup.The craftsmen are getting older, and there are not 30 of them in Japan.  The method of collecting lacquer liquid in China is completely different.

 

Urushikaki-漆掻き- was registered as an intangible cultural heritage in 2018.

 

what's 漆掻き-Urushi kaki-?

the master craftsman the of act of drawing sap from a lacquer tree

 

漆掻き Urushi-kaki

 

 

 

 

 

The most expensive lacquer in the world is Joboji lacquer.  If a craftsman  make 100% Joboji lacquer without mixing it with other lacquer, all the craftsmans  will actively announce it.

 

浄法寺漆 Joboji Urushi -Iwate prefecture -

Short version 

 

Long version 

 

 

In addition, the lacquer master adjusts the lacquer himself.  Instead of using a machine, use a special wooden box called 舟-Fune-  to continue mixing for a day with dermatitis.  This ultimate lacquer is called "Tenpi Tesugurome Urushi".  I have never met  lacquer pen collectors in Japan who knows this word.  There are only a few masters in Japan who make lacquer this way.

 

Please see the number of views.  Even the Japanese are not interested in the essence of lacquer.

 

天日手素黒目漆 -Tenpitesugurome Urushi-

 

 

 

 

General lacquer is adjusted by machine.  This adjustment is absolutely necessary.  Recently, an increasing number of young craftsmans are using lacquer without adjusting it and removing only impurities.  It will be a messy finish.

 

Urushi Kurome 漆黒目機械精製

 

 

[txomsy]

Really interesting. And a pity if it ever disappears.

[GoofyGame]

5 minutes ago, txomsy said:

Really interesting. And a pity if it ever disappears.

Thank you very much!  I have a friend of an elderly lacquer master who represents Japan.  He was very angry  that I didn't know the Japanese lacquer detail.  Then I looked them up myself.  These are contents that even Japanese people do not know.  That's why I wanted people all over the world to know it in my poor English sentences.

[Nurmister]

7 hours ago, GoofyGame said:

 

I was surprised at your knowledge.   Your opinion is very correct about Pilot Custom Urushi-not Namiki-.  Pilot is a very polite and reliable company, but did not give details regarding Custom Urushi.  In other words, not all processes may be handmade or Japanese lacquer(mixed other pure lacquer).  

 

However, I like Pilot custom Urushi because the quality of the nibs and barrels is good for the amount of money.  The feel is also the softness of pure lacquer.  Actually I contacted Pilot directly for more information on this pen. Could I ask how did you understand the details?  Is there an English site that details Pilot Custom Urushi?

 

I need to learn from you.

 

I'm trying hard to find the source of the information from where I read this, since it's been a few years now. I initially searched in these blogs:

 

1.  https://estilofilos.blogspot.com/search?q=urushi

2. https://kmpn.blogspot.com/search?q=urushi

 

But they don't have this information. Perhaps it was on FPN itself. I'll keep looking, please give me a little while!

[bone215]

This thread is fascinating.

I don't know if everything in this article is true, but it may contribute to the ongoing dialogue .

 

"Urushi: All You Need to Know About Japanese Lacquer"

by Anne Walther & Diccon Sandrey | CRAFT

 

https://japanobjects.com/features/guide-to-masterpieces-of-japanese-lacquer

 

It seems that the subject of lacquer, its history and usage go quite deep, farther back in time than I originally thought.

 

GoofyGame, very good topic, thanks for your insight.

 

 

[Honeybadgers]

I do need to point out, that there IS a true japanese lacquer. It's no better or worse than others, but the tree that produces the lacquer is like saying all camellia sinesis plants produce the same tea. The lacquer will change a bit. I don't know HOW much, but even with in the same subspecies, growing conditions and time will result in differences in the plant's chemical compounds. While urushinol is a key component in the lacquer, there are going to be ten thousand other compounds that also contribute.

 

 

[GoofyGame]

1 hour ago, Honeybadgers said:

I do need to point out, that there IS a true japanese lacquer. It's no better or worse than others, but the tree that produces the lacquer is like saying all camellia sinesis plants produce the same tea. The lacquer will change a bit. I don't know HOW much, but even with in the same subspecies, growing conditions and time will result in differences in the plant's chemical compounds. While urushinol is a key component in the lacquer, there are going to be ten thousand other compounds that also contribute.

 

 

Hi Honeybadgers, Thank you for the additional information. I feel the same way.

 

 For example, let's talk about the finest sandalwood.  There are many types of this tree, but even with the same type of sandalwood, the value of Santalol, a valuable ingredient, varies greatly depending on the environment, and the price also varies.  The same applies to Hawaiian koa curly.  Grain quality varies from island to island and is the same variety, but with different grain grades and quantities.  The oil content depends on the briar birl.  Even if I and your country make the same tomatoes, the detailed composition of the tomatoes at harvest and after management should change.

[GoofyGame]

4 hours ago, bone215 said:

This thread is fascinating.

I don't know if everything in this article is true, but it may contribute to the ongoing dialogue .

 

"Urushi: All You Need to Know About Japanese Lacquer"

by Anne Walther & Diccon Sandrey | CRAFT

 

https://japanobjects.com/features/guide-to-masterpieces-of-japanese-lacquer

 

It seems that the subject of lacquer, its history and usage go quite deep, farther back in time than I originally thought.

 

GoofyGame, very good topic, thanks for your insight.

 

 

Thank you for your interest in this topic!    And thanks for the nice link, bone215.  I will study English and lacquer in English at the same time!

[GoofyGame]

4 hours ago, Nurmister said:

 

I'm trying hard to find the source of the information from where I read this, since it's been a few years now. I initially searched in these blogs:

 

1.  https://estilofilos.blogspot.com/search?q=urushi

2. https://kmpn.blogspot.com/search?q=urushi

 

But they don't have this information. Perhaps it was on FPN itself. I'll keep looking, please give me a little while!

Your research ability is wonderful.  I will also study on this page.  Thanks for the nice link! 🙂

[GoofyGame]

On 4/13/2021 at 2:41 AM, Honeybadgers said:

All I know is that I'm having a PAIN of a time trying to paint a jinhao 992 with urushi right now.

 

It's fun, but getting those brush strokes out is a nightmare. Glad I started out with a disposable pen.

 

 

It's a great challenge!  Is your skin condition okay?

 

 Your skin has an allergic reaction and has lacquer dermatitis.  It lasts 4 to 14 days.  Wash all skin and attached clothing with soap.  Do not touch rashes or blisters.  If you crush it, the allergy will spread again from there.  I hope your skin will heal completely.

[GoofyGame]

22 hours ago, Nurmister said:

 

Ah, thank you for the details! There was one term you used that had slipped my mind previously -- "roiro urushi". That's exactly what Pilot uses for their Namiki No 20 and No 50 (the Emperor).  Those pens retail for 1500 and 2000 USD respectively. It thus appears that these pens are lacquered with pure (Japanese) lacquer, and the shininess is imparted not through oils but rather the technique of polishing.  I believe something like 40+ coats are brushed onto the pen over a few months of production, which tallies with what you are describing here. This is from memory though, so I may not be exactly correct about the numbers.

 

As for what you said about the Pilot Custom Urushi (and not the Namikis aforementioned), noted -- and as far as I know, only three layers of lacquer are brushed onto it. So it likely is a matter of cost, and indeed the pen can be purchased for less than a 1000 USD.

 

Edit: from the Namiki website:

 

"The Urushi Collection brings the large size No.50 pen nib fountain pen of the early 1930's, dubbed “No.50 Jumbo”, to the present.
The ink stopping function is also the same as that of the original. The beauty is deepened by using non-oil lacquer
for the final coat and a polishing method called “Roiro Urushi Shiage (Non-oil lacquer finish)”,
where the process of repeatedly rubbing in raw lacquer after polishing with a special charcoal.
We have also prepared a size No .20 pen nib fountain pen."

 

 

Thanks again for the details. I previously thought all lacquer was essentially the same.

About polished lacquer.  

 

The polished finish is called a mirror finish.  Do you know the difference between a cheap plastic mirror and an ordinary glass mirror?  Cheap mirrors distort reflections.  In the same way, the lacquer mixed with oil distorts the reflection unlike 呂色-Roiro-.  In addition, the reflection of 呂色-Roiro- lacquer ware made by a lacquer artist who lacks skill is also distorted.  If you buy a high price Roiro Urushi-蝋色漆- finish, carefully observe the accuracy of the mirror surface.

 

*呂色-Roiro- and 蝋色-Roiro- have the same meaning.

 

 

[GoofyGame]

On 4/13/2021 at 1:13 AM, Karmachanic said:

 

Natural polished objects will become matte with use over time. Urushi, Ebonite, silver ........ Besides which, some objects were not polished to begin with.

I know the answer to this question.  I'll write later so please wait.

[Nurmister]

On 4/14/2021 at 4:23 PM, GoofyGame said:

About polished lacquer.  

 

The polished finish is called a mirror finish.  Do you know the difference between a cheap plastic mirror and an ordinary glass mirror?  Cheap mirrors distort reflections.  In the same way, the lacquer mixed with oil distorts the reflection unlike 呂色-Roiro-.  In addition, the reflection of 呂色-Roiro- lacquer ware made by a lacquer artist who lacks skill is also distorted.  If you buy a high price Roiro Urushi-蝋色漆- finish, carefully observe the accuracy of the mirror surface.

 

*呂色-Roiro- and 蝋色-Roiro- have the same meaning.

 

 

 

Thank you for this extra detail. This reminds me of Japanese Zaratsu polishing for metals which does not allow for distortion even when applied to curved surfaces. This is in comparison to cheaper Western polishing methods which polish curved objects like they are flat, leading to distortions following the curvature of the metal. I don't quite remember where I first heard about this kind of polishing, perhaps something to do with Japanese blade-polishing.

 

I'm still looking for the source on extra details concerning the number of Urushi layers, by the way. I'll update you when I find it. I remember reading it so clearly, just not where...

 

In any case, your descriptions of the care behind Urushi artistry are tempting me to sell my Montblancs to buy into a Namiki! Montblanc creates wonderful pens, but after years of analyzing their tiny details, I realize they are simply well-designed mass-produced objects, particularly in regards to their modern nibs. Namikis seem different.

 

 

Edit: a picture of what I mean by "Japanese blade polishing":

 

Edit 2; After some research, it seems the term "Zaratsu polishing" itself is specific to a Japanese watchmaker which uses it for their watch cases, although I believe blade black-polishing uses similar principles. Quite beautiful:

[Karmachanic]

16 minutes ago, Nurmister said:

In any case, your descriptions of the care behind urushi artistry are tempting me to sell my Montblancs to buy into a Namiki

 

Michal at Tamenuri Studio has applied urushi to an MB 149

I am very happy with the Kuro-Tamenuri over Kuro-Negoro work he did on an Ebonite pen.

[Nurmister]

22 minutes ago, Karmachanic said:

 

Michal at Tamenuri Studio has applied urushi to an MB 149

I am very happy with the Kuro-Tamenuri over Kuro-Negoro work he did on an Ebonite pen.

 

Funny you mention that, since he was mentioned on this thread I checked out his channel just a few days ago. I did also see the regular 149, it has an interesting "flame-like"/wood finish. There's so much depth:

 

 

My curiosity is: how would it be if one applied black Urushi using the roiro technique on the 149? That would be a great mash-up.