I just going to say it... I personally hate the look of the Lamy Safari and All TWSBIs.

[Paganini]

I don't have any TWSBI pens; I don't find them to be remarkably beautiful objects, but neither are they notably hideous. It's just that they have a pretty high price point for pens starring in so many stories about how they fell apart! 

 

I do have two Safaris, an Al Star, and a Joy. I agree with OP that they look ugly. That's not the main reason I don't write with them though. It's all the little design annoyances. Some are personal (I don't like the shaped section, although it works for some), and some are failures of utility (the Z80 converters tend to be leaky, wear out quickly, and don't hold much ink). But mainly it's the nib inconsistency. The F and M nibs are indistinguishable from each other, and the EF nib is broader than both of them. In addition, some of the nibs are loose enough on the feed to wobble while writing which constantly puts them out of alignment. I might, now, be able to tighten up the securing clips, but by the time I got deep enough into pen-tuning to feel comfortable taking pliers to a nib I had accumulated a number of pens that I like much better, both aesthetically and for their performance. As a result, the Safaris just never get inked up anymore.

 

All that being said, I did just order a LAMY Studio in brushed steel. I really like the look of the Studio, and the Brushed Steel version seems to avoid all the issues that are sometimes associated with that pen (grippy section, instead of slippery chrome, e.g.). It has the same kind of nib as the Safaris do, so I suppose it's a risk that the EF I ordered will be too broad. 

 

 

[Vulpy]

On 4/9/2021 at 9:42 PM, Mercian said:

I always found the Safari to be very ugly.
I disliked the shape of the solid-coloured shiny-plastic Safari, and I disliked the appearance of its huge, bright, 'paperclip'-shaped clip.

 

But I was intrigued by how very many people on FPN sang the pen's praises - so I bought myself a Vista.

I think that all the 'brightware' actually looks quite nice against the transparent plastic, and I also like that the transparency disguises the ugly shape of the grip-section.

 

After using my Vista for a couple of years I also bought the Safari in its 'Charcoal' (aka 'Umbra') textured matte plastic version, with the black (as opposed to bright 'silver') clip.

Somehow, the Safari's plastic body looks less 'ugly' when it has that textured matte finish than when it has a smooth and shiny finish.

I then bought the 'Dark Violet' edition of the Safari when that came out. It too has a matte texture on its body, and a black clip.
The year after that I also found that I 'had to' buy the 'Petrol' edition of the Safari - again with the textured matte plastic body, and black clip and black nib.

They really are well-designed and well-made pens.
They are reliable, and sturdy, and the clip is also reliable and sturdy. I like the ink-window, and I love the fact that LAMY has designed the converter for the Safari so that it clips in to the body of the pen. No worries about one becoming loose inside the pen. And I like the fact that their nibs are so easily interchangeable.
I can now carry a set of 'the same' pen, but with EF, F, & M nibs on my different coloured pens.
LAMY also make the same nibs in B, 1.1mm italic, 1.5mm italic, and 1.9mm italic, so one has a good range of options available.

I still don't like the look of the Safaris that have smooth, shiny plastic bodies and silver clips - except for the 2011 LE 'Aquamarine' one.
Which I am still kicking myself for NOT buying when I saw it in a store in 2012, because they cost a fortune now! 🤦‍♂️

I'm not huge on the shiny plastic ones either, but I do like the matte ones. I've got all three of the 2020 special edition colours: aquamarine, mango and the violet. They really are just very sturdy pens. I know the grip can be an issue for some, but I don't mind it that much.

[Bo Bo Olson]

 Skinny M can be just as wide as a Fat F....both are with in 'tolerance'

 

Don't know why your EF is so Fat....but it costs @ $7-8 for a new one or complain to Lamy; perhaps they will send you a new nib, or have you send your pen so they can put a better EF on it; the pen is guaranteed for your life.

Don't expect a quick turnaround but that would be free, if one wanted to spend a fortune using US mail.

It would not hurt to complain to Lamy, perhaps they will have you send just the nib.....lots cheaper than sending the pen.

 

Unlike Ron Zorn's visit to the Shaffer factory as it closed down, no people are used in Lamy nib size sorting, just robots/machine' perhaps the nib making machine. I didn't have time to grill the machine operator when I visited the Lamy Factory some 7 years ago. Since then they have a smaller (half size from what I saw) nib machine according to Goulet's factory filming.

Here we have robots/ a machine doing nib size sorting, and still getting it wrong.

Back at Shaffer, they had humans with experienced eyeballs.

 

However Ron's chart shows a great example of the normal range of tolerance in grading nib widths.

 

So this addresses your Skinny M and Fat F = Same.....which then and now are 'normal'.

I made a mistake when swapping nibs on my brand new Virginia Woolf. I wanted a B nib, and heard MB wrote wide. In the B&M the M wrote to a B on poor paper.  At home on better paper, I'd found the M to actually write like a M.

In the nib swap, I did not say I wanted it in the middle of tolerance so got the fat end of B.....which writes like a BB.

 

"""Ron Zorn tolerance

Sheaffer used a dial indicator nib gauge for measuring nib sizes. The nib was inserted into the gauge, and the size read off of the dial. A given size being nibs that fell within a given range. What is listed below were the ranges given on a gauge that I saw in the Sheaffer service center prior to being closed in March 2008.

Measurements are in thousandths of an inch.

XXF = 0.010 - 0.013
XF = 0.013 - 0.018
F = 0.018 - 0.025
M = 0.025 - 0.031
Broad* = 0.031 - 0.050
Stub = 0.038 - 0.050

*there was some overlap on the gauge. May be 0.035 - 0.050"""

[collectorofmanythings]

On 4/25/2021 at 1:40 PM, Carrau said:

To the OP:  forgive my curiosity, however, after some 80 odd posts in your thread, what did you  learn about the attributes of these pens?

I’m not sure what “OP” is, but I created this post so I think I may be that?

 

I have loved looking at all of these posts, and read every single one within hours of its posting. 

In terms of the whole brand of TWSBI, I have actually learned to like certain models from their brand. I still cannot stand the ECO though. The 580 is interesting, but I am not willing to commit that much money. The GO model though, I am actually considering purchasing as I am a student and it seems very practical for me, though I am not a huge fan of the looks.

 

In terms of the Safari, I still can’t stand the looks. Everything about it is just everything I don’t like. But, I have heard a lot about the nib, and how it’s a great beginner pen (especially in places where Pilot is not readily available for good prices, as I always will prefer the Metro) so I do appreciate it more.

 

And that is what I really made this post to do. I wanted to appreciate TWSBI and the Safari more. I always heard so much praise for them when I didn’t like them. I wanted to see if there were other people like me out there who agreed, and I also wanted to hear people who disagree with me to make me appreciate the models more. I want to thank everyone that posted, and everyone who posts in the future as well. I loved this whole discussion and hope it continues!

 

And thank you for your question @Carrau!

[inkstainedruth]

You're welcome.  

And yes, "OP" means "original poster" (i.e., the person who started the thread).

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

[Ergative]

I have a TWSBI 580. I like it because it holds a huge amount of ink, it can be taken apart and greased if the piston starts sticking, and it writes reliably: Even after being capped on my desk for weeks it will start right up. After a month or two I might need to dunk it in a dish of water, but then it's perfect again. It is as reliable as any old ballpoint lying around, and it behaves well with any ink I put in in.

 

I agree that the visuals of Lamy Safari/Al-Star are not pleasing, but I've considered getting one because it is cheap and apparently unbreakable and reliable. The only reason I haven't yet is because I have several Pilot Metropolitans, which are also cheap, unbreakable, and reliable, and their aesthetics are much more to my taste. 

[Arkanabar]

On 4/17/2021 at 11:30 AM, collectorofmanythings said:

Thank you for your response. I didn’t mean to criticize anyone for liking the Safari, I just wanted to appreciate it more. In fact, I wish I liked the Safari, because then I would get any color I could get my hands on! (Like I did with the Kaweco Sport)

Everyone's an individual.  I used to razz on MontBlanc for their marketing, until a fan pointed out that people who are down on MB usually are down on their current marketing practices, while the fans appreciate how they write.  I realized that person was right, so I changed my ways.  I don't recommend MBs, but echo consensus impressions of those who like them, pointing out that first, it isn't really my opinion (though I do really like the MB 72 that eventually wound up in my collection), and second, that it's only what I gather, not what I know.

On 4/27/2021 at 4:47 PM, collectorofmanythings said:

I’m not sure what “OP” is, but I created this post so I think I may be that?

<snip>

I wanted to appreciate TWSBI and the Safari more. I always heard so much praise for them when I didn’t like them. I wanted to see if there were other people like me out there who agreed, and I also wanted to hear people who disagree with me to make me appreciate the models more. I want to thank everyone that posted, and everyone who posts in the future as well. I loved this whole discussion and hope it continues!

 

And thank you for your question @Carrau!

That's not a bad thing.  I have fair appreciation for the Safari, even though I dislike it.  And when I warn people that they, like me, might find themselves disliking the Safari (or the Pilot MR), perhaps for the same reasons I do, I also freely admit that they are good pens with lots of fans, and cite what they tell me they like.

[dragondazd]

I like the look of the safari because it is simple yet distinctive. Having different colors is important to me. I use it because it is cheap but sturdy.

 

I do not especially like the look of TWSBI in general, but I like the demonstrator aspect. I like some of the translucent colors. I like the diamond faceting on the 580. I use them because they hold a lot of ink. The large and visible ink capacity is a huge draw.

[Misfit]

For TWSBI, considering most, though not all, are demonstrators, you have to like demonstrators. It’s neat to see the ink, and they hold a lot. Lots of us mention liking to see the ink sloshing. 
 

The Eco (short for Economical) is not as refined as the Diamond versions. They have really good nibs, they write right away if neglected for several days. It’s more affordable than a Diamond version. 
 

The Diamond 580 and the Diamond Mini are the only other TWSBIs I own. They look nicer, cost more because there are more metal parts. Same good nibs, with the Mini and Eco using the same nib. 
 

I like Safari pens too. Some of it is the colors, so many Special Editions. I love the range of nib sizes, and the ease of swapping nibs. Like the Eco, they aren’t the most refined looking pens. 

[Bo Bo Olson]

Twsbi started with Bock nibs then went to JoWo. When it was the thing to do on the Com; I found a hole in my wallet.

I haven't been able to find the Wallet Repair section on the Com......I've heard liquid gold does the trick; but don't use lead, in that's unhealthy.

[McBaneG]

At some point I went into a local pen shop and said "I've had several nice fountain pens, but somehow I always end up putting them in my pants pocket with my keys and they get all beat up.  I need an indestructible fountain pen."  The guy sold me a charcoal (matte) Safari. 

 

It is in fact nearly indestructible.  I happen to like the modernist design and the stout wire-bail clip, but I grant this is entirely a matter of taste.  I also like the snap-in converter and the triangular section and the moderate price (though the price has doubled since my first purchase nearly 30 years ago!)   The most important thing I like, though, is those black-oxide, reliably smooth, very sturdy steel nibs.  On half a dozen Safaris I have never had to adjust, floss, polish, or otherwise futz with them.  They start immediately and glide smoothly on any paper I've used.  There's no flex, but I'm not a calligrapher. 

 

I have made very modest use of the nib interchangeability.  I mostly use M nibs but have a couple F (for grading papers) and a 1.1 mm italic for variety.  The bright-steel italic is not as smooth as the others, as expected.  I have had no problems with inconsistent sizing that others have reported here.

 

My most frequent EDC pen is now a petrol-green Safari.  I agree that I prefer the matte to the shiny finish, and I think it probably is better in the "indestructible" column too.  

 

Weaknesses:

 

The cap retention mechanism can become loose.  I have a couple of Safaris whose caps became so lightly held that I no longer trusted the cap to hold the pen in my shirt pocket.  

 

I did have one pen where the clip-attachment peg at the top of the cap broke so the clip came off.  I got a replacement cap from Lamy service.

 

As someone else pointed out, the converter capacity is modest, though better than an international-short.  I have not found this to be a problem, especially with the well-designed ink window.

 

On lighter-colored matte finishes, you can end up with ink stains at the front of the section from filling the pen.  

 

-G.

 

[Bo Bo Olson]

9 minutes ago, McBaneG said:

The cap retention mechanism can become loose.  I have a couple of Safaris whose caps became so lightly held that I no longer trusted the cap to hold the pen in my shirt pocket.  

 

Send them back to Lamy...for a free fix.

[N1003U]

17 hours ago, McBaneG said:

At some point I went into a local pen shop and said "I've had several nice fountain pens, but somehow I always end up putting them in my pants pocket with my keys and they get all beat up.  I need an indestructible fountain pen."  The guy sold me a charcoal (matte) Safari. 

 

It is in fact nearly indestructible.  I happen to like the modernist design and the stout wire-bail clip, but I grant this is entirely a matter of taste.  I also like the snap-in converter and the triangular section and the moderate price (though the price has doubled since my first purchase nearly 30 years ago!)   The most important thing I like, though, is those black-oxide, reliably smooth, very sturdy steel nibs.  On half a dozen Safaris I have never had to adjust, floss, polish, or otherwise futz with them.  They start immediately and glide smoothly on any paper I've used.  There's no flex, but I'm not a calligrapher. 

 

I have made very modest use of the nib interchangeability.  I mostly use M nibs but have a couple F (for grading papers) and a 1.1 mm italic for variety.  The bright-steel italic is not as smooth as the others, as expected.  I have had no problems with inconsistent sizing that others have reported here.

 

My most frequent EDC pen is now a petrol-green Safari.  I agree that I prefer the matte to the shiny finish, and I think it probably is better in the "indestructible" column too.  

 

Weaknesses:

 

The cap retention mechanism can become loose.  I have a couple of Safaris whose caps became so lightly held that I no longer trusted the cap to hold the pen in my shirt pocket.  

 

I did have one pen where the clip-attachment peg at the top of the cap broke so the clip came off.  I got a replacement cap from Lamy service.

 

As someone else pointed out, the converter capacity is modest, though better than an international-short.  I have not found this to be a problem, especially with the well-designed ink window.

 

On lighter-colored matte finishes, you can end up with ink stains at the front of the section from filling the pen.  

 

-G.

 

 

Thank you for that excellent description of some key characteristics of the Safari. I concur with the descriptions.

 

One thing I would point out: if you are in the United States, general retail prices have roughly doubled in the past 30(ish) years or so (even low inflation adds up with enough time), so if the price of the Safari has only doubled, at least in real terms, it has not gotten more expensive...perhaps a good benchmark.

 

[Carloa]

If you don't mind me asking: How can you hate the look of a fountain pen, indeed, how can you hate a fountain pen?
Such a fountain pen is a dead thing. It's completely harmless. It never insults me, it doesn't write me a ticket, it doesn't take away my parking space, it never cuts in front of me at the checkout, it never cheats me, and it doesn't salt my food, and it's neither politically correct nor incorrect. 
Where does the hate come from?
A Lamy Safari, for example, probably doesn't care whether it is loved or hated. 
He probably doesn't even care if people write with him or not. 
Such a Lamy Safari will never hate me back.
Twsbis are a different story. I had two of them. Both broke on me without my doing, just lying around. 
Here I could say the other way around, Twsbis hate me. They don't want me to write with them.

That's why I only have Lamy Safaris and no more Twsbis. 
There you can see what hate can do.

 

[N1003U]

31 minutes ago, Carloa said:

If you don't mind me asking: How can you hate the look of a fountain pen, indeed, how can you hate a fountain pen?
Such a fountain pen is a dead thing. It's completely harmless. It never insults me, it doesn't write me a ticket, it doesn't take away my parking space, it never cuts in front of me at the checkout, it never cheats me, and it doesn't salt my food, and it's neither politically correct nor incorrect. 
Where does the hate come from?
A Lamy Safari, for example, probably doesn't care whether it is loved or hated. 
He probably doesn't even care if people write with him or not. 
Such a Lamy Safari will never hate me back.
Twsbis are a different story. I had two of them. Both broke on me without my doing, just lying around. 
Here I could say the other way around, Twsbis hate me. They don't want me to write with them.

That's why I only have Lamy Safaris and no more Twsbis. 
There you can see what hate can do.

 

 

I agree with your general line of reasoning.

 

However, I think the OP is using the term "hate" in less of the classic philosophical sense, and more in the modern popular sense of "dislike," and was looking to understand better what people see in them. I don't think anyone is proposing the rounding up of innocent Safaris and having them summarily executed (though I have still not ruled out such a fate for my old MB 144 with a seditious cap).

 

 

[collectorofmanythings]

On 5/28/2021 at 5:12 AM, Carloa said:

If you don't mind me asking: How can you hate the look of a fountain pen, indeed, how can you hate a fountain pen?
Such a fountain pen is a dead thing. It's completely harmless. It never insults me, it doesn't write me a ticket, it doesn't take away my parking space, it never cuts in front of me at the checkout, it never cheats me, and it doesn't salt my food, and it's neither politically correct nor incorrect. 
Where does the hate come from?
A Lamy Safari, for example, probably doesn't care whether it is loved or hated. 
He probably doesn't even care if people write with him or not. 
Such a Lamy Safari will never hate me back.
Twsbis are a different story. I had two of them. Both broke on me without my doing, just lying around. 
Here I could say the other way around, Twsbis hate me. They don't want me to write with them.

That's why I only have Lamy Safaris and no more Twsbis. 
There you can see what hate can do.

 

Hello!

 

I think I’m the OP (does it mean original poster?) and I just want to say that I am not saying that I hate it like that, I just really strongly dislike the design. I wanted to know why it is desirable to so many.

[Carloa]

The liking of one is the disliking of the other. 
Therefore, liking is always also not liking.
If there were only liking, there would be no liking at all. Nothing would matter.

I personally don't like Montblanc. I have never held a Montblanc in my hand and have never written with one. Yes, I have never even seen one in the flesh. But I have been to Chamonix. I have seen the Montblanc. I know that a Montblanc is not a Montblanc. So many lies.

The question of design is another: How is it possible that people like something I don't like. What kind of people are they? 
The question of design is the question of strangeness. How am I supposed to understand a person who likes what I dislike? How am I supposed to understand myself among so many others.
The question of design is the question of human loneliness. How can I live in a world, among people who behave as if there were a second one.

It needs a completely different answer here. It needs a safari of the mind. An understanding of the jungle of vanities, of likes and dislikes and all the conflicts that come with them.
Hate is a wise beginning. Everything begins with hatred. Adam and Eve, Cain and Abel. 
The question is: Can it end in love? 

 

[N1003U]

1 hour ago, Carloa said:

The liking of one is the disliking of the other. 
Therefore, liking is always also not liking.
If there were only liking, there would be no liking at all. Nothing would matter.

I personally don't like Montblanc. I have never held a Montblanc in my hand and have never written with one. Yes, I have never even seen one in the flesh. But I have been to Chamonix. I have seen the Montblanc. I know that a Montblanc is not a Montblanc. So many lies.

The question of design is another: How is it possible that people like something I don't like. What kind of people are they? 
The question of design is the question of strangeness. How am I supposed to understand a person who likes what I dislike? How am I supposed to understand myself among so many others.
The question of design is the question of human loneliness. How can I live in a world, among people who behave as if there were a second one.

It needs a completely different answer here. It needs a safari of the mind. An understanding of the jungle of vanities, of likes and dislikes and all the conflicts that come with them.
Hate is a wise beginning. Everything begins with hatred. Adam and Eve, Cain and Abel. 
The question is: Can it end in love? 

 

 

An excellent question!

 

(and an interesting line of argument)

[A Smug Dill]

2 hours ago, Carloa said:

The question of design is another: How is it possible that people like something I don't like. What kind of people are they?

 

They are my peers and equals, and presumably your peers and equals, all categorically joined by a (collectively) broad interest in writing with fountain pens using inks suitable for such, but otherwise different as people — and people all have some part of themselves that is irrational (and not to be personally blamed or shamed for it), especially when it comes to emotional responses such as liking and hating.

 

It's only one's misguided attachment and/or fancy to want, or presume, to be representative of either ‘good taste’ or what the cashed-up market wants. I tend to think that users of black ink do not form an absolute majority among fountain pen hobbyists, and thus cannot reasonably claim to be representative of the interests of “the community”. Blue and blue-black ink, separately, too for that matter. Chinese fountain pen users are a (large) minority, just as American fountain pen users are a minority, and of course Australians arguably more so; and so manufacturers continue to cater to different groups and segments as long as each has spending power to offer.

[N1003U]

2 hours ago, Carloa said:

The liking of one is the disliking of the other. 
Therefore, liking is always also not liking.
If there were only liking, there would be no liking at all. Nothing would matter.

I personally don't like Montblanc. I have never held a Montblanc in my hand and have never written with one. Yes, I have never even seen one in the flesh. But I have been to Chamonix. I have seen the Montblanc. I know that a Montblanc is not a Montblanc. So many lies.

The question of design is another: How is it possible that people like something I don't like. What kind of people are they? 
The question of design is the question of strangeness. How am I supposed to understand a person who likes what I dislike? How am I supposed to understand myself among so many others.
The question of design is the question of human loneliness. How can I live in a world, among people who behave as if there were a second one.

It needs a completely different answer here. It needs a safari of the mind. An understanding of the jungle of vanities, of likes and dislikes and all the conflicts that come with them.
Hate is a wise beginning. Everything begins with hatred. Adam and Eve, Cain and Abel. 
The question is: Can it end in love? 

 

 

20 minutes ago, A Smug Dill said:

 

They are my peers and equals, and presumably your peers and equals, all categorically joined by a (collectively) broad interest in writing with fountain pens using inks suitable for such, but otherwise different as people — and people all have some part of themselves that is irrational (and not to be personally blamed or shamed for it), especially when it comes to emotional responses such as liking and hating.

 

It's only one's misguided attachment and/or fancy to want, or presume, to be representative of either ‘good taste’ or what the cashed-up market wants. I tend to think that users of black ink do not form an absolute majority among fountain pen hobbyists, and thus cannot reasonably claim to be representative of the interests of “the community”. Blue and blue-black ink, separately, too for that matter. Chinese fountain pen users are a (large) minority, just as American fountain pen users are a minority, and of course Australians arguably more so; and so manufacturers continue to cater to different groups and segments as long as each have spending power to offer.

 

I read Carloa's question as a largely rhetorical/philosophical one, but I enjoyed this answer also.