Sellers and flexmania

[pearlfox]

With the increased interest in flex nibs these days I've noticed sellers on an auction site eagerly demoing the abilities of their goods--with some concern on my part that things might be going too far.  I was willing to concede that perhaps I was overreacting until I came across this:

 

This was a new Pelikan M300, no mention of mods, sold as being flexy.  Is anyone else uncomfortable seeing stuff like this?

[MoriartyR]

It hurts to look. Please make it stop.

 

[mizgeorge]

This has reached horrendous proportions on UK ebay, with sellers claiming at least semi-flex for just about anything older than about 10 years, and torturing the poor nibs (quite possibly to death) to demonstrate it. Every time I see a nib on a thumbnail, I cringe, and some of the writing 'samples' are just gut wrenching.

 

Some of these sellers have huge followings and are driving prices to ridiculous levels for really quite pedestrian pens, which will ultimately disappoint those buying them. They're also causing some perfectly nice pens to become unaffordable for people who will genuinely love them regardless of what circus tricks they're being made to perform. 

 

I've noticed a similar trend with a recently reissued classic hooded nibbed pen...

 

That poor little Pelikan...

[A Smug Dill]

8 hours ago, pearlfox said:

This was a new Pelikan M300, no mention of mods, sold as being flexy.  Is anyone else uncomfortable seeing stuff like this?

 

Uncomfortable because it looks like deliberate misrepresentation by the seller, or uncomfortable because one feels bad for the nib? 

 

I personally couldn't care less who abuses or breaks which nibs, however old or new, however cheap or expensive; they are soulless, non-sentient objects that can't suffer, and their (mis?)treatment at the hands of their current rightful owners is not exactly an affront to civilised society or the idea of justice.

 

If a seller sets out to intentional deceive prospective buyers who don't know better, that's a different thing. However, if a particular nib could repeatedly do what is shown — say, for fifty times before it is permanently damaged, and three out of those fifty ‘Get Out of Jail free passes’ have been spent in demonstrating the capability of the nib to attract sales — and then someone buys the pen expecting to acquire that capability, and in fact receives it in exchange for the agreed price, and keep exercising that capability until the nib fails, then I don't think the fault lies with the seller, because it isn't the seller's job to educate prospective buyers on how to care for the pen so that it'll last longer in the hands of whoever ends up with it.

[Aether]

Agree with @mizgeorge  There are sellers on the auction place what have a followship of people which jack prices up for quite normal pens.  Maybe shills who can say?  It's bad for the hobby in opinion of mine.  Yes i think some of sellers are purposely misrepresenting the pens to push price, but it is an auction place and no argument can be made for stupidity of some buyers.  Same for sellers who put very high start price pens - let us have auction and let the market determine price... oh, yeah, that's not going to be happen because seller knows they will get less than they want.  It is all a game and all players must be aware.  If seller not reputable, avoid with the ten feet pole.

[Grayspoole]

I find many of the sellers’ attempts to produce calligraphy painful to the eyes as well.

[Aether]

19 minutes ago, Grayspoole said:

I find many of the sellers’ attempts to produce calligraphy painful to the eyes as well.

 

Use of fountain pens not mean handwriting any better. Most reviewers on the youtube and other places have terrible hand writing, yet still clearly enjoy use the pens. Go figure I think the Americans would be saying.

 

[Grayspoole]

10 minutes ago, Aether said:

 

Use of fountain pens not mean handwriting any better. Most reviewers on the youtube and other places have terrible hand writing, yet still clearly enjoy use the pens. Go figure I think the Americans would be saying.

 

 

Not so much the quality of the writing per se but the attempts to produce a kind of italic script by mashing down on a flexible nib instead of using a broad edge nib (aka crisp italic).

[pearlfox]

10 hours ago, A Smug Dill said:

I personally couldn't care less who abuses or breaks which nibs, however old

So you condone wanton wastefulness and destruction of a limited resource.

[como]

Ouch! It would be at least more convincing if there were ink in between these painfully stretched tines!

[OMASsimo]

It always needs two for this to work, a reckless seller and an ignorant buyer. I think the whole flex thing is mostly a fancy fashion. And by the way, I really enjoy flexy vintage nibs for what they are, pleasant writers with a bit of character. Not in my wildest dreams would I stress any of my vintage flex nibs that much as shown above despite them offering much more flex that the shown nib. But to each their own.

[Bo Bo Olson]

More Nib Abuse...and I rant about it, using these pictures as an example.

For years I had wondered why so many posters said they couldn't write fast with semi-flex when I just scribbled along like any other pen....until these pictures showed up.....and I found out they were Nib Abusers.................perhaps unknowingly.

The small writing and the curlicue is ok....the big fat letters from an over stressed nib is not.

Almost = semi.......instead of semi-flex they read it as semi-flex.

Then there is all those Nib Abusers on YouTube and Ebay; showing this crud off...and then willingly selling you the per-sprung for your convenience nib.

 

[da vinci]

I wince when I see nibs flexed like the OPs photo, whether they are manufactured to perform that way or not. But in any event I am probably in the minority of users who prefer even vintage pens with stiff/ non- flex nibs 😊

[A Smug Dill]

6 hours ago, pearlfox said:

So you condone wanton wastefulness and destruction of a limited resource.

 

When it's privately owned property, not mine at that, and it's not something protected by the state's laws as national treasures or heritage items, what's there to not condone? Of course I condone it. Their owners' rights matter infinitely more than anyone else's sentiments, as far as I'm concerned as a bystander and fellow citizen (of the whatever); and as someone who staunchly belief in rights (that can only be granted by someone or something bigger than those who have those rights) and entitlements, I certainly think the exercise of the rights, without regard for the preferences and feelings of others who have no standing or even specifically to antagonise them, is something with which they must not be allowed to interfere. That's living in lawful and civilised society; rules governing behaviour trump the emotional reactions they may elicit from one's fellows.

[pearlfox]

On 4/7/2021 at 5:09 PM, OMASsimo said:

It always needs two for this to work, a reckless seller and an ignorant buyer.

Of course, and educating the ignorant is part of the solution.  Hopefully threads like this one will help to some degree.  I also have a slowly growing list of such sellers with whom I refuse to do business--I figure I don't want anything they've used anyway.

 

On 4/7/2021 at 6:15 PM, Bo Bo Olson said:

More Nib Abuse...and I rant about it

Had a feeling you'd show up.  Keep up the good work.

[Christopher Godfrey]

<Some of these sellers have huge followings and are driving prices to ridiculous levels for really quite pedestrian pens, which will ultimately disappoint those buying them. They're also causing some perfectly nice pens to become unaffordable...>

 

Yes, I do agree -- I remember when I could buy a perfectly functioning Waterman 52 with a wonderful nib for less than a hundred dollars (probably less than fifty, actually!); but I doubt that all this is a fashion, as someone suggested.  I daresay that all our talk here about "flexy" nibs and "nails" has made people want to investigate and thus we have partly been the cause of our own perceived "problem".  I suppose, also, that the art of <making> flexy nibs has become less common -- and hence more expensive?

 

I don't know why you would cringe whenever you see the "thumbnail test" undertaken: I myself do that when I want to know something about a pen I pick up at a show -- but I do it with some sensitivity!  And I am mildly perturbed at Bo Bo's example (above) of the Pelikan with broad nib which comes from the advertising of someone I consider a friend -- and he is <very> knowledgeable on the subject of Pelikans and flex (you're not the <only> one, Bo Bo, friend!)  I have bought several pens and several spare nibs (flexible, of course) from him and been delighted with my purchase every time.  He does not over-stress nibs: I know that!  So come on, everyone: Pelikans, especially, are rugged pens with tough nibs that, in the case of vintage, will mete out what you demand of them.

 

I <do> understand the OP's concerns; but don't let's get carried away...

[Bo Bo Olson]

Christopher ... The peicture came to be by way of a noobie so I don't know who nor care, and I still consider that Nib Abuse.

 

The next step up is Olympic Splits and a visit to a $$$ good nib master, who won't be able to (I think) be able to return the nib to as good as it once was......close I think is possible.

 

I keep ranting almost=semi. and it's semi-flex, not semi-flex.

I kept wondering why folks were saying writing with a semi-flex took so long.....until I found out they were/could be using it as a calligraphy nib, instead of a nartural flair nib.

Yes, a nice decender, or a fancy crossed T is part and parcil of semi-flex.

 

But after springing the nib, it's sold pre-sprung for the buyer's convenience....and many of those buyers will be noobies, and think that sprung nib is how a semi-flex should write and shy away from the simple pleasure of having that old fashioned foundation pen script with out doing anything.

 

IMO as I said, the middle of the page is ok, the thick lines not so, but opinions are what makes the world go round.

[Uncial]

It's sad to see this because antics from unscrupulous sellers like this have no love of fountain pens whatsoever. They're only in it for a quick buck. Some poor fool will overpay for it and get a nib that's already buckled, a pen that skips and a seller who insists they're just doing it wrong and so another person who could have enjoyed the hobby and helped to keep fountain pens alive, evaporates.

[A Smug Dill]

10 minutes ago, Uncial said:

It's sad to see this because antics from unscrupulous sellers like this have no love of fountain pens whatsoever.

 

There will always be others, in the world we all share, who don't love what we love, and are prepared to treat those (objects, people, countries, deities, ideals, etc.) what we may feel is  disregard and lack of due respect, and do what we wouldn't want to or dream of with such. Sharing a love of something is not an inherent requirement for engaging in commerce or competition in some area of it.

 

I think it'd be a sadder day when our personal values and sentiments are basis enough to stop such behaviour by way of draconian rules and/or use of force (or at least intimidation tactics), instead of learning to accept that's part of coexistence as equals, who simply don't have to agree with or accommodate each other, while still fulfilling all the obligations society can reasonably expect of individual members.

 

23 minutes ago, Uncial said:

Some poor fool will overpay for it and get a nib that's already buckled, a pen that skips and a seller who insists they're just doing it wrong and so another person who could have enjoyed the hobby and helped to keep fountain pens alive, evaporates.

 

I say don't worry, there are plenty of new pens and nibs that are fit for purpose of writing (and even all types and styles of calligraphy, not limited to English and Spencerian) being made. If the newcomers form the opinion that ‘flex’ nibs are junk, it still wouldn't mean they give up on fountain pens, calligraphy, or writing with expressiveness (perhaps in a different style) as pursuits, even if what they then favour — which then steers the market and industry to respond commercially — is different from yours, and changes the landscape of the hobby as you/we know it today.

[mizgeorge]

My issue isn't so much about the question of whether a nib flexes or not (and the rather brutal efforts to demonstrate that it does) so much as the implication that unless it does, it's in some way unworthy.  I can't really blame the sellers - the vast majority are not pen lovers themselves (though a few are) and they're in it to make a buck - and where there's a demand to satisfy...

 

I couldn't care less about what a nib's characteristics are - I use and love them all (without needing to use silly names to describe them) - but I would love to see more people enjoying their pens, especially vintage ones, without needing them to perform fashionable tricks. These are lovely, serviceable, hard working tools that have written many words, be they clever, loving, informative or just fun and they deserve a chance to write some more. 

 

Much of it is sheer laziness on the part of the buyers - they think that by spending lots of lockdown money on these small objects of desire, they will suddenly be transformed into calligraphers, without any need for them to master any penmanship skills or put any effort into learning how to write with something other than a ballpoint. Sadly, many of them discover the hard way that it doesn't make the blindest bit of difference and the poor little pens end up discarded along with the baking equipment, crochet hooks, power tools and stringed instruments. 

 

My lament is that those of us that genuinely want to have and use them, can't afford to do so any more. 

 

I'm sure, that like all fads, this will pass. If today's news is anything to go by, they're all back to queuing outside the cheap fashion outlets as of this morning, and by the end of the month they'll be too busy going to the hairdresser / nail salon / gym / beer garden or booking the next holiday and things will start to get back to normal. 

 

And who knows, perhaps in a few months there'll be a whole slew of good old pens in the charity shops - right up there with with the cake moulds and banjos.