Something to think about. Topic for discussion

[ParramattaPaul]

I think it is safe to say that we tend to focus almost myopically on pens and inks for themselves, and not necessarily for what they give us.  At least that is the thought that came to mind when I read the following:

'Ink is always the trace of though, of the spirit in the largest sense of the term. ... The text that you're reading is simply black marks on a page.  The text that derives from it takes shape in the mind.'*

 

The thoughts that subsequently crossed my feeble mind included:

Do we love the instrument -- ink or pen -- more for their inherent aesthetics than for what and how we can use them?

Does that ink and pen allow us to record or express our thoughts give them each more value?

Does a fountain pen or a particular ink allow us more, for want of a better word, 'significance' to our writings?

 

I have my own conclusions, and I would like to hear -- more correctly -- read yours.

 

 

* Ink; Culture, Wonder, and Our Relationship with the Written Word, Ted Bishop, 2014, Penguin,  Page 287

[A Smug Dill]

16 minutes ago, ParramattaPaul said:

Do we love the instrument -- ink or pen -- more for their inherent aesthetics than for what and how we can use them?

 

I love particular pens for what they (can) do for me, in terms of eliciting a state of mind — which could be due the pens' aesthetics and ‘hand feel’, or for sentimental reasons — and how they enable me and perform functionally as instruments, but not for what I actually do with them, wielding them, using them, or the tangible or observable outcomes produced by such.

 

28 minutes ago, ParramattaPaul said:

Does that ink and pen allow us to record or express our thoughts give them each more value?

 

No more than a keyboard and data storage facility (which could be a sheet of paper, if I was typing on an old-fashioned typewriter, or something intangible ‘in the cloud’) does, in that respect.

 

30 minutes ago, ParramattaPaul said:

Does a fountain pen or a particular ink allow us more, for want of a better word, 'significance' to our writings?

 

Not for me. Back when I was still training heavily in martial arts, the significance of (winning) a particular fight is neither enhanced by the techniques used or the manner in which the fight was won, nor in the immediate outcome of the fight as opposed to the changes to one's situation, relationships and standing that the victory brings (e.g. eliminating some sort of risk, or getting one step closer to the championship).

[LizEF]

1 hour ago, ParramattaPaul said:

I think it is safe to say that we tend to focus almost myopically on pens and inks for themselves, and not necessarily for what they give us.  At least that is the thought that came to mind when I read the following:

'Ink is always the trace of though, of the spirit in the largest sense of the term. ... The text that you're reading is simply black marks on a page.  The text that derives from it takes shape in the mind.'*

 

The thoughts that subsequently crossed my feeble mind included:

Do we love the instrument -- ink or pen -- more for their inherent aesthetics than for what and how we can use them?

It seems like, in the above, "what they give us" has been defined as "text on the paper and what it communicates".  Am I wrong in that?  Because I would assert that the pleasure that comes from their use is part of "what they give us".  Whether it's the beauty of the instrument, or the joy of watching that little puddle of ink under the nib, it seems like all this is part of what FPs give us.

 

I might also assert that at least for some and some of the time, a pen and ink that are a joy to use are the impetus for something with greater meaning - such as a journal entry or a letter that might never have been written except that the author discovered FPs and inks and wanted to find ways to use them.  (Sure, they could use another recording method, but the tool came first and the use second, in at least some cases.)

 

1 hour ago, ParramattaPaul said:

Does that ink and pen allow us to record or express our thoughts give them each more value?

I agree with @A Smug Dill, that they're no more valuable than any other tool that can accomplish the same end (if slightly differently), at least in terms of financial and functional value.  But they may take on more personal or emotional value as they become associated with events or people significant to the user (Dad's pen, or the pen I used to sign my marriage certificate, etc.).

 

Also, I value things my parents wrote by hand more than, say, their emails to me.  Sure, it's emotional, but one tends to express oneself more intimately in pen and ink, and seeing another person's handwriting seems more personal than typed text, and that gives the tools a certain value that other tools may lack.

 

1 hour ago, ParramattaPaul said:

Does a fountain pen or a particular ink allow us more, for want of a better word, 'significance' to our writings?

See above.  If so, it's an emotional / psychological reaction to the tool more than anything inherent in the tool itself.  With the exception, perhaps, of the handwriting issue - that is inherent in the tool and, logical or not, seems to me to create a personal sense of connection with the writer.

 

(I was going to start exploring what is and is not inherent in a tool, or able to be produced by multiple tools, and decided that would just be a rabbit hole of its own, so I'll quit there, at least for now.)

[BigBlot]

1 hour ago, ParramattaPaul said:

I think it is safe to say that we tend to focus almost myopically on pens and inks for themselves, and not necessarily for what they give us.  At least that is the thought that came to mind when I read the following:

'Ink is always the trace of though, of the spirit in the largest sense of the term. ... The text that you're reading is simply black marks on a page.  The text that derives from it takes shape in the mind.'*

 

The thoughts that subsequently crossed my feeble mind included:

Do we love the instrument -- ink or pen -- more for their inherent aesthetics than for what and how we can use them?

Does that ink and pen allow us to record or express our thoughts give them each more value?

Does a fountain pen or a particular ink allow us more, for want of a better word, 'significance' to our writings?

 

I have my own conclusions, and I would like to hear -- more correctly -- read yours.

 

 

* Ink; Culture, Wonder, and Our Relationship with the Written Word, Ted Bishop, 2014, Penguin,  Page 287

Keep in mind that I have a Sons of Martha outlook. I appreciate the asthetics of a pen and a shade of ink, but at the end of the day both are merely tools. Even objects of art are tools of a sort, their purpose to evoke feeling or thought.

[willl]

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Do we love the instrument -- ink or pen -- more for their inherent aesthetics than for what and how we can use them?

 

In a strictly literal sense, I think the answer here is likely to be a "yes" for most on here. Let's be honest -- in the modern day you don't opt for a FP simply because you need to write. If it was simply about "what and how we use" we would all exclusively use digital devices, or at best a basic Bic and a generic note pad (both are inexpensive and ubiquitous). The use of a FP is very much an aesthetic experience, and also a nod to nostalgia and pining for "the old ways". It's no different than baking your own bread, or using a straight razor to shave. You do them precisely because of their aesthetic value and how it makes you feel; you don't do it because it's "functional" (rigidly defined as "for what and how we use them"; communication for pens, sustenance in the case of bread, and not looking like a wolf-man for shaving).

 

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Does that ink and pen allow us to record or express our thoughts give them each more value?

 

I don't think that the simple use of "recording and expressing our thoughts" gives them more value; I think instead the addition value comes from the effort of thought required to effectively use them (vs. say a digital medium like a computer). It's VERY easy to just let thoughts flow in the digital realm without truly thinking about them or diving into details -- we can go back at any time, so being precise from the get-go isn't the necessity that it is when you put pen to paper. There is (generally) no "edit" ability when using pen and ink, thus one must be clear in thought and detail LONG before beginning a venture such as a letter, or even a mere thank-you card.

 

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Does a fountain pen or a particular ink allow us more, for want of a better word, 'significance' to our writings?

 

Given the above, I would submit that it indeed does. These are ALL deliberate actions; it takes work to select an ink, fill a fountain pen, and then have the presence of mind and thought to put pen to paper without a myriad of scratches and edits. That's not to say that items written with a 20-for-$1 generic office pen on generic paper are worth less, but the additional level of effort that the act of writing with a fountain pen requires certainly indicates that to the writer, those written words are much more significant (at the very least, in their mind).

[A Smug Dill]

3 hours ago, willl said:

… the additional level of effort that the act of writing with a fountain pen requires certainly indicates that to the writer, those written words are much more significant (at the very least, in their mind).

 

That is at best misguided, or outright presumptuously incorrect, when you apply it to me as a ‘writer’ of words using fountain pens, even when my choice of a particular pen and/or ink for a given instance is deliberate.

 

Together, my wife and I have roughly 200 currently inked fountain pens around the house, so chances are that when we ‘randomly’ reach for a pen to take a note while on the phone, or copying down from a screen onto a scrap of paper, it'd be with a fountain pen.

 

The pen that is attached to the shopping list pad on our fridge is a fountain pen, filled (deliberately) with a pigmented black ink that is largely waterproof. The choice of ink is such that the ink marks will not wash right off, or smear and stain fingers or fabric in contact with the sheet; we often take a shopping list with us on our way out to the park for a sweaty run, and such things are apt to get damp in the supermarket when we're handling frozen foods. However, there is nothing particularly meaningful about “milk”, “maple syrup” or “tea-flavour mouthwash, only if discounted” written with such on a list.

 

When I used to fill in customs declarations — specifically, CN22 forms to be stuck onto the outside of envelopes and cardboard mailers — I made sure to use a Japanese fountain pen with a EF or UEF nib, and filled with waterproof ink, because of how much I have to write in a tiny area and what conditions the forms could be subjected to in the articles' long international journeys. Again, there is no special significance in writing, “Six 2ml fountain ink samples” beyond stating the factual.

[Ron Z]

I got my first fountain pen 55 years ago.   Then, and now, I would and do use one because I like them, like the feel of a pen on paper, like the balance, like the clean line that it produces.  I don't have to wrestle the pen across the page, the tip doesn't leave blobs of ink on the page.    It is a tool that I enjoy.  It has no impact in any way on what I write,  other than not distracting me by making my hand or wrist hurt. 

[willl]

2 hours ago, A Smug Dill said:

 

That is at best misguided, or outright presumptuously incorrect, when you apply it to me as a ‘writer’ of words using fountain pens, even when my choice of a particular pen and/or ink for a given instance is deliberate.

 

Together, my wife and I have roughly 200 currently inked fountain pens around the house, so chances are that when we ‘randomly’ reach for a pen to take a note while on the phone, or copying down from a screen onto a scrap of paper, it'd be with a fountain pen.

 

The pen that is attached to the shopping list pad on our fridge is a fountain pen, filled (deliberately) with a pigmented black ink that is largely waterproof. The choice of ink is such that the ink marks will not wash right off, or smear and stain fingers or fabric in contact with the sheet; we often take a shopping list with us on our way out to the park for a sweaty run, and such things are apt to get damp in the supermarket when we're handling frozen foods. However, there is nothing particularly meaningful about “milk”, “maple syrup” or “tea-flavour mouthwash, only if discounted” written with such on a list.

 

When I used to fill in customs declarations — specifically, CN22 forms to be stuck onto the outside of envelopes and cardboard mailers — I made sure to use a Japanese fountain pen with a EF or UEF nib, and filled with waterproof ink, because of how much I have to write in a tiny area and what conditions the forms could be subjected to in the articles' long international journeys. Again, there is no special significance in writing, “Six 2ml fountain ink samples” beyond stating the factual.

I agree that it's on the presumptuous side -- it didn't quite capture what I meant, but I couldn't think of a better phrasing at the time. In retrospect I should have said "the additional level of effort that the act of writing with a fountain pen requires certainly indicates that to the writer, those written words are worth "more" in the sense of the added "extra" effort to use a fountain pen (at the very least, in their mind)." You might use a fountain pen for everything, but lets be honest -- keeping 200 inked FP's around the house requires more effort and intention than scattering some Bic's or sharpies around the house to always have something handy.

[ParramattaPaul]

9 minutes ago, willl said:

You might use a fountain pen for everything, but lets be honest -- keeping 200 inked FP's around the house requires more effort and intention than scattering some Bic's or sharpies around the house to always have something handy.

I'll be presumptuous and suggest that 200 ink pens at the same time, even for two people, is excessive.  I'll also suggest that it hints at the possibility of a phobic or obsessive disorder.

[A Smug Dill]

17 minutes ago, willl said:

You might use a fountain pen for everything, but lets be honest -- keeping 200 inked FP's around the house requires more effort and intention than scattering some Bic's or sharpies around the house to always have something handy.

 

Yes and no. It takes effort to fill a fountain pen in the first place with a carefully selected ink, either to match the pen's look and/or characteristics, or to suit the application; but it takes even more effort and cause more wastage of ink to keep fewer pens inked, i.e. clean each pen out once I'm done playing with a different ink colour “for now”. My wife is already yelling at me often for leaving fifty pens scattered over tables and desks, without keeping them neatly packed together/away after use; and it'd only be more trouble to keep ballpoint pens around as well.

 

Anyway, my point is not that the act of choosing and/or preparing to write with a pen is thoughtless or unenjoyable, when it is clearly premeditated; but the words I write with a fountain pen do not have any special significance or sentimental value on account of it, any more than jotting something down on fountain pen friendly, not-exactly-the-cheapest notepaper means the content of what is written is particularly meaningful. The logical separation is between the process (or act of writing) and its output.

 

2 minutes ago, ParramattaPaul said:

I'll be presumptuous and suggest that 200 ink pens at the same time, even for two people, is excessive.

 

It happens when one tries to experience hundreds of different inks. I have >320 different inks here at the moment, after having given some away in the past completely.

 

[dstahlberg]

As a real "newbie" to fountain pens I would like to connect the use of them to correspondence. Using a fountain pen connects me to the history of writing and corresponding by letters; something that dominated our world until "email" came around. It also gives me a more rich and expanded experience of communicating - the paper, the ink, the stamp, the envelop (where/how has it traveled?). Lastly, using a fountain pen shows that I care more of the recipient as I spend more time and care (and more money🙂) in creating the letter.