Debugging a Dialog 3

[arcfide]

So, I had an irresistible itch to get myself a personal Lamy, not one for one of the family members to use. Not being able to quite convince myself to get a Lamy 2000, I couldn't say no to a Dialog 3, despite the fact that they seem a bit polarizing. 

 

Got it in, and at least from the fit and finish side of things, it's everything I could have hoped for, and I really like the overall ergonomics of the pen. However, the jury is still out on the writing experience. The Medium nib that it came with was writing *really* dry, which I narrowed down to most likely a combination of converter issues along with a dry writing medium nib. I had heard something about this possibility in one comment on a Dialog 3 that said that the tines of the nib were squished far too closed to give good ink flow. I was hoping to get a wet, almost broad but not quite medium nib, whereas I got something that was more like an EF with dry flow. 

 

I spent a long time carefully getting the tines opened up a bit, and that has fixed the majority of the dry writing problems. The line width is currently pretty good and the nib writes wetly and consistently now. I'm still not convinced that the feel of the nib is quite up to my standards at this point, despite looking well aligned. Part of this may have something to do with the way that the section rotates ever so slightly in various directions depending on how tightly it is screwed into the top of the body. This has the effect of changing the sweet spot on the nib, and so I find myself hunting for the sweet spot too often. I think I'm beginning to get this dialed in, but, well, jury still out. 

 

However, even though the nib is writing wetter now and working well, I think that the converter is still leading to an ink starvation situation, to a greater degree than I would like on this pen. I have seen this in my other pens, but the starvation/flow isn't restricted as heavily as on this pen. The whole things has been thoroughly washed and cleaned, and I don't see the same limitations when I use a cartridge, so I am putting the blame for this on the converter. What could be going wrong here, and is it likely that just picking up a replacement converter will fix this issue or is this something that I will have to expect in any of the converters for this pen? 

 

I am finding myself really, really wanting to like this pen enough to use it as my EDC. There is a *lot* to commend it to me, but I do feel like I'll be nothing but frustrated if I can't get it to write the way that I have come to enjoy. I'm almost there, and I think if I can get the converter issue fixed somehow, then I'll be good to go. Obviously I could refill ink cartridges, but I'm not particularly inclined to do that on this pen due to the design of the Lamy cartridges, though I might have to go that route depending on the converter situation. 

 

Has anyone else had a very dry-writing Dialog 3 or other Safari with the same nib/feed design? What did you do to successfully address it? 

[Newton Pens]

If the nib is actually tuned properly, and the whole thing has been washed out like you say, with soapy water, then the only other thing to look at is the ink.  

Try some different ink.  Waterman, Sheaffer, some from Diamine, KWZ are pretty good, uh... some Pilot inks can be pretty wet, de Atramentis, and Callifolio are good, too.  But start with the bright blues from Waterman and Sheaffer.  If you can fit a .002" thick brass shim through the nib and it's really tight, then the nib isn't adjusted properly.  A .002" thick shim should fit through without too much trouble for a nice wet flowing nib.

[arcfide]

24 minutes ago, Newton Pens said:

If the nib is actually tuned properly, and the whole thing has been washed out like you say, with soapy water, then the only other thing to look at is the ink.  

Try some different ink.  Waterman, Sheaffer, some from Diamine, KWZ are pretty good, uh... some Pilot inks can be pretty wet, de Atramentis, and Callifolio are good, too.  But start with the bright blues from Waterman and Sheaffer.  If you can fit a .002" thick brass shim through the nib and it's really tight, then the nib isn't adjusted properly.  A .002" thick shim should fit through without too much trouble for a nice wet flowing nib.

 

Thanks for the suggestion of ink. To be clear, are you saying that the converter is not likely to be a potential source of problems? 

 

When I first got it, it was difficult to get a brass shim through the tines, but now the tines are adjusted pretty well I think and they do allow a 0.002" brass shim through without undue resistance or trouble now, though it won't "drop through". When I let the pen rest for a moment, and then begin writing with it, I'm getting a plenty wet line, and I don't think the nib is at fault anymore, though it definitely was to blame at the beginning. However, now I think it's a matter of ink starvation from the converter, since the pen writes consistently wetter with the cartridge, but you're saying that this isn't likely to be an issue? 

 

I did experiment with some inks, but I still found that even my wet inks got what looks like ink starvation to me. 

[Newton Pens]

Maybe there's some schmutz in the feed from a variety of inks being fed through and not being cleaned out properly?  Mixed inks can create solid sludge.

 

If you have one of those ear syringe squeezy things, force some soapy water through again to get it nice and clean, then water to rinse, then try again.

 

What I was saying, if the converter was actually cleaned out properly, it shouldn't be the problem.  Some inks will stick to the inside of a converter more than others, which is why I recommended the Watermans and Sheaffers.  I'd avoid Noodler's for your experiments.

[TheDutchGuy]

I use pretty wet inks in my D3. Think Blackstone, KWZ. Seems to work well. Never been happy with Lamy converters, somehow they always give me trouble. Re-filling an empty cartridge tends to give me better flow. Rarely been happy with stock Lamy nibs, had a re-grind done to a wonderfully crisp mini-mini-mini-stub. Very appealing.

[arcfide]

Over the course of a few days, I've been trying different things and through that time have been washing out the pen quite a bit. The flow is getting a little more consistent, and so I think whatever is causing the problem is beginning to work itself out, but the medium nib is still just not write for me, in terms of sweet spot and overall feel, though that too is improving. 

 

Well, I picked up a spare converter and a B Z55 nib to swap out for the medium. I could tell just from looking at the nib before assembling that it was going to write too dry for me, so I gave the tines a little widening treatment and ensured that the nib was aligned. I used Lamy Black for the ink, and the original converter that I thought was giving me trouble. Now I am very pleased to report that I am getting a wet line that is comparable to my Sailor KOP B nib with approximately equal flow as well. The polish and alignment on this B nib is, IMO, better than the M nib that I have, and the extra flow and B nib shape has made the pen very smooth, which I expected, but I'm glad to have that confirmed. I have done some preliminary tests so far and I'm not getting any total ink starvation yet, though I'm still cycling a little bit in and out of dryness. Still, it is not nearly as bad as it was at first, so I'm hoping the frequent washes of ink are clearing out something in the pen. 

 

At this point, I feel like I'm finally at a point where I can evaluate the Dialog 3 for my use fairly against my other pens, whereas before I felt like the pen just wasn't getting a fair shake. 

 

On the other hand, this is the first pen among all the pens in my collection that has required this much tinkering to get to write as well as I expect from the pen. I have a few pens that are distinctly less luxurious in their writing experience, but they also have written reliably and consistently, unlike this Dialog. But that's something like one or two pens out of quite a few others of various price points, including Waterman, Pilot, Platinum, Sailor, Montblanc, Visconti, and Monteverde. I would only say that the Monteverde has been consistently worse as a writer out of the box. That's a little disappointing. On the other hand, now that I have made the appropriate adjustments, the pen is as wet, smooth, and good a writer as I have heard of in praise for this pen. In terms of writing, I now feel that at least it can stand respectfully among its peers, rather than lagging distinctly behind. It's not clear to me yet whether it's ahead of them in my personal tastes, yet, and for that I have to take the whole package into consideration, but at least it is in the race. 

 

It's nice that Lamy pens are so easy to tinker with and get working well, but I shouldn't have to tinker with a pen out of the box to get a good, consistent writing experience. 

 

If I continue to have consistent or workable ink flow through the pen for a few more days and a few more fills without incident, then I'm going to call the problem resolved via lots of flushing and ensuring the nibs are tuned the way that I want. If it shows up again, I have one or two more tests to try with this converter, and then I'll try the second converter to see if that makes any difference. Otherwise, so far I think the problem is looking to be solved. 

[arcfide]

Well, ink starvation was back today, and with the wetly adjusted broad nib on relatively absorbent Strathmore paper, I was seeing it probably every 1/2 of an A5 page or so. A flick of the pen got things flowing again in each case after a moment, but I looked at the converter when this happened and I could literally see the ink bubbling up as the air interchange caught up with the writing at one point. This tells me that this is clearly a case of the feed/converter combination not letting the ink flow through the pen properly, and getting air bubbles stuck somewhere. When the ink is finally to about 1/3 or maybe 2/5 of a full converter fill, I notice that the pen settles down and doesn't seem to cause the issue. 

 

I've changed out to the other converter now and I'm seeing what that does. I manage to write out about 1/2 of a converter in rapid form over a few copier paper pages and didn't see any signs of ink starvation, so I'll have to go through another one or two converter's worth of ink before I'm willing to call it fixed, but it's clearly an issue with the ink flow in the pen itself, and not at the nib, now.

[Newton Pens]

don't mess with it too much.  if it's not writing properly, send it in to Lamy warranty service, and get a new one.  I think it's about $9.  That's what mine was.  They just kept the nib and swapped the whole thing out.  Mine works perfectly now.

[arcfide]

Seeing as how the nibs were probably among the problems with the pen, I'm not sure I would have wanted to keep them in their stock form. However, if the pen isn't "fixed up" after this adjustment, then doing a warranty repair is the only thing that I'll be able to do. If they could get me a better performing Medium nib then that might be a good option, though. 

[Estycollector]

Lately there has been a flurry of complaints regarding LAMY pens.

 

Id prefer the dialogue over the 2000 aesthetically.

[arcfide]

Well, it didn't take long, but I started writing on some different paper and I could tell that I was getting some dry writing, and by the second or third page I suffered complete starvation. I even let the pen sit without flicking it to see what would happen, but the pen remained dry the entire time that it sat (minutes), but it wrote right back up after flicking it a couple of times and letting the feed saturate again (a few seconds). That tells me that this isn't a converter issue most likely and it isn't anything else I'm able to fix myself at this point. I'm also still not really happy with the medium nib, so I'm starting the process of getting this pen repaired or replaced to see if I can get something to work. 

 

On the plus side, I can report that the one fear I had regarding the pen drying up while sitting has not happened to me. I have let the pen sit for some hours (half a day to 2/3's of a day) and there was no sign of dry out, so at least on that point the pen doesn't seem to be like some of the older Dialog 3 pens that were reportedly much more sensitive to drying out. Lamy appears to have cleared that older bug out of the pen, at least. 

 

For what it is worth, both of the nibs that I got that were too tight in the tines were Z55 nibs, which according to my reading, are being replaced by Z56 gold nibs? That is, replaced by nibs without the breather hole. I don't know if there is a difference there, but I thought it was worth mentioning. 

 

I still like this pen enough that I'm willing to try to get things worked out either with a replacement or a repair, so that speaks highly of the core identity of the model of pen, if not particularly highly to the particular pen I have. 

[arcfide]

3 hours ago, Estycollector said:

Id prefer the dialogue over the 2000 aesthetically.

 

I couldn't bring myself to go for the Lamy 2000 even though it is quite famous, simply because I didn't think I would actually want to use it more than my other capped pens that I have. The Dialog 3 is a pen that I could see myself actually using instead of some of my other pens, and I wanted to give Lamy a fair shake with a pen that I felt I would actually enjoy, and I think I made the right call in terms of pen model. The design and usability of the pen itself in concept and in actual implementation is really good, and I still like using it even though it has this ink starving problem. I don't think I would have liked the L2K nearly as much. 

[danielfalgerho]

"Every pen tested before it leaves the factory" I'm skeptical. My Dialog 3 was very smooth but wrote between "dry" and "no ink" It many repeated attempts to loosen up the tines. It writes beautifully now but what kind of quality control is that. I own 6 Lamy pens and every one needed work before performing really well. BTW soapy water is not recommended by Lamy distributors. It should be nothing but water. Experts might disagree.

[arcfide]

Mine was certainly tested, and probably would have passed a typical factory test, but that doesn't mean that it is what I was looking for. Anyways, I filed an RMA with the retailor and they took care of me, sending me a new pen after testing it out. This one still had issues of a different kind, and the tines were still too tight from the factory, but the flow from the pen itself is good now, without starvation problems, and putting the Broad Lamy nib on it that I had already adjusted a little bit (widened the tines a bit so that they were not crammed together at the tip) now flows well from page to page without starving. The feed had a nick in the front of the plastic at the tip which was pushing one of the tines of the included Medium nib out of alignment, but I was able to flatten out the nick so that the feed surface was properly flat, and the nick didn't affect or touch any of the feed channels or the like, so it's a tiny cosmetic blemish at the very underside of the feed. Given that the mechanism is smooth and that the feed is work well now, I consider this not ideal, but more than adequate for what I wanted, and the rest of the pen shows good order, and the internal threading is smoother on this pen than on the last Dialog 3 that I had, so overall it's a win for me. 

 

So, after an RMA of the pen, I received a working Dialog 3 that I am happy to have in my collection now and that I believe is worthy of the Lamy name. The gold nibs are still not the most refined experience, and I believe the Sailor KOP nibs are just more competently executed, but the Lamy nib is much "easier" to use, even if it is more brutish in character. 

 

Overall, I feel that I'm satisfied now and am glad to have a "premium" Lamy in my collection. 

[arcfide]

I have a theory on the dryness, other than just the tines. I believe that the factory testing actually results in too much residual ink, and that it might sometimes take a little work and time for the ink to work all the older stuff out of the feed. Combined with their overly conservative tine alignments, with a dry ink (Lamy is a medium to dry ink), it's better suited to absorbent paper than the "fountain pen friendly" paper that most of us would use. That being said, they seem to break in really well and perform consistently well over time, even if the initial experience might leave a little to be desired. 

[Ste_S]

On 4/24/2021 at 2:52 AM, arcfide said:

I have a theory on the dryness, other than just the tines. I believe that the factory testing actually results in too much residual ink, and that it might sometimes take a little work and time for the ink to work all the older stuff out of the feed. Combined with their overly conservative tine alignments, with a dry ink (Lamy is a medium to dry ink), it's better suited to absorbent paper than the "fountain pen friendly" paper that most of us would use. That being said, they seem to break in really well and perform consistently well over time, even if the initial experience might leave a little to be desired. 

 

Yeah, agreed. Every Lamy that I've had an issue with out of the box has either resolved over time, or with some heavy duty repeated flushing.

I wonder if rather than the ink from testing, it's some form of mould release agent they use on the feeds and converter parts that needs flushing out? I think the converters in particular are susceptible to it; my wife uses a bunch of Safari's purely with cartridges, and has never had an ink flow problem.

[arcfide]

7 hours ago, Ste_S said:

 

I wonder if rather than the ink from testing, it's some form of mould release agent they use on the feeds and converter parts that needs flushing out? 

 

I'd say that your guess is as good as mine at this point. 

[Ste_S]

For what it's worth, I bought a Studio the other day and it's running beautifully on a cartridge. Meanwhile an older Al-Star I have is having flow issues with a converter; the classic situation of the pen drying out and skipping in prolonged writing periods.

 

Is there anything that can be done with the Lamy converters to improve flow and ink/air exchange? I do think their converters are the achillies heel for Lamy.

[arcfide]

12 hours ago, Ste_S said:

For what it's worth, I bought a Studio the other day and it's running beautifully on a cartridge. Meanwhile an older Al-Star I have is having flow issues with a converter; the classic situation of the pen drying out and skipping in prolonged writing periods.

 

Is there anything that can be done with the Lamy converters to improve flow and ink/air exchange? I do think their converters are the achillies heel for Lamy.

 

Outside of the above, the most reliable solution I have found at this point is to make sure to pick a good ink that doesn't have a susceptibility to air bubbles. That seems to have been one of the biggest issues with mine, but my new Dialog 3 is definitely "immune" to this issue at this point, so I don't know.