Advice / Wisdom Please - Unhappy With New Sailor Music Nib

[fivedime]

Greetings, all. I recently bought a Sailor 1911L (Pirate’s Life), and opted for the music nib. My general preference is toward fine and even EF points, since I tend to write very small when taking notes (probably most of my writing). I also tend to write pretty fast, and often need to quickly write something down (I have a severely degraded short-term memory, so often it’s write-it-down-or-lose-it). I would also state my handwriting is pretty poor, I have zero interest in fine penmanship or calligraphy (well, at least none in my trying to perform either myself); I just like writing my checkenscratch with nice pens. That said, I recently acquired a Franklin Christoph with a medium stub, which I found fun and nice to write with, even if a bit broader than I preferred; the added expression to the lettering overcame the need to write a little larger, or accept slightly cluttered words. And, it performed as needed in keeping up with my writing speed. So, against my common instincts (go fine!), when I ordered the Pirate’s Life I decided to stretch a bit and try the music nib.

 

It arrived yesterday and I inked it up, and immediately encountered troubles...difficulty starting when put to paper, skips, VERY dry feeling while writing. I was expecting more than a bit more feedback than, say, a Pilot 823 fine, but this was...ridiculous. I couldn’t spend much time on it yesterday since I had a full plate and kind of hoped maybe it was an ink issue (first loaded with J. Herbin Stormy Grey), or the beginning of a learning curve.

 

I was able to sit down and spend a good bit of time with it today, and it still remains a bit...elusive. I ran through all the ink I had at home (most of it is at my desk at work); Mont Blanc Toffee Brown, Diamond Ancient Copper (both WAY too dry, performed even worse), Taccia Cha Brown (Taccia uses Sailor nibs, looks like the ink was made by Sailor, at least based on the jar, maybe it just needed all-Sailor mojo...nope...ok, more than a bit better, but not good enough), and a couple of Pilot Iroshizukus (getting there, but still not quite what I needed). I finally went back to Herbin, this time Caroube de Chypre, shaken then allowed to sit for a minute to let most of the gold settle).  Best results of all inks I tried...but I am still having plenty of issues. I would also say I spent a lot of time writing (or in the case of some of the inks, trying to write), so I got a bit more familiar with the demands of the nib (somewhat particular about angle to the paper, better to write more slowly and deliberately). I would also state that when the ink is flowing, it writes really wet, so I don’t think the feed is the problem. So, I am left with wondering what I have gotten into. In order of severity, perhaps...

 

1) Maybe it’s just all about the ink; I plan to try something really wet by Noodler’s tomorrow, but I am also not so naive as to think there’s much chance that will solve all my problems. 
 

2) maybe I just got a poor performer, and all it needs is a little smoothing and tuning up? Will probably be my next step if the ink isn’t the fix.

 

3) Maybe the problem is me, and despite some review from folks with no indication of the problems I am experiencing, the way I write just doesn’t mesh with this nib. So...a regrind? It may come to that. Another possibility, smoothing and tuning the nib, with the right ink, solves the startup issues and need to write slowly, but it just writes too thick for my everyday note-taking needs...in which case maybe I pick up another 1911L (simple, black) with a F or EF, swap nibs, and use the black/music as a signature pen. Of course, the time, effort, and cost are escalating with each option...

 

So, can anybody offer any insight, suggestions, or similar experiences and how they were rectified, while I work through my list of options?

 

Thank you!

[A Smug Dill]

6 minutes ago, fivedime said:

So, can anybody offer any insight, suggestions, or similar experiences and how they were rectified, while I work through my list of options?

 

Don't forget the option of cutting your losses, selling the pen you have, and use the proceeds to (at least partly) fund the purchase of a pen with a different nib that isn't going to give you all the headache.

 

After hearing so many people wax lyrical about Music nibs on Japanese ‘Big Three’ brands' fountain pens, and even after the disappointment with my Pilot Custom 74, I still didn't fully learn my lesson, and when the opportunity arose to ‘try’ a Sailor steel Music nib on a Young Profit pen for rather less than a gold Music nib on an entry-level Pro Gear Slim or Profit Standard, I took it. Nope, it is never going to write like a Pilot Plumix (i.e. broad-edged, Italic style) F or even M nib, much less the narrow italic nibs Dan Smith customised for me (on Pelikan and Aurora pens). Being a relatively cheap pen, it was neither worth selling nor sending to a nibmeister, so I just ‘fixed’ it myself by regrinding, with all the inherent risk knowing my amateur skills. It's now usable as a ‘fun’ pen, but will never see really heavy duty in journalling, etc.

 

That isn't something I'd recommend doing to a Sailor gold nib with the 1911 imprint, though.

[Wadude]

Dear Fivedime,

 

I would give some consideration to the possibility that the problem lies in whichever filling method you are employing. A few times I had problems with Sailor pens hard-starting or skipping, and they seemed to improve dramatically when I switched from converter to a syringe-filled cartridge.  Amusingly, sometimes the opposite also happens: the pen will write perfectly with converters, but drily with cartridges. In any case, I believe it would be worth the try to switch filling methods before giving up on your pen.

 

Then again it might just be that the character of Sailor pens — being usually drier, but more precise than Pilot’s or Franklin Christoph’s — does not fit your preferences and you would best be served by a different pen.

[Uncial]

From what you have said it sounds like the nib and feed has a fault. I own two Sailor music nibs. One is decently smooth and the other has a bit of feedback and can feel a bit 'grainy' at times, but both are very wet writers. If you check reviews of the music nib you will see that nobody mentions them being specifically very dry. They are essentially quite large stub nibs. Personally, I'd return the pen for a refund or replacement.

 

Edited to add:

Worth noting that the music nib requires a fairly precise angle and although it acts like a stub it tends to be a lot less forgiving of angle and placement than other brands. If you write at a pronounced angle to the right or left or if you tend to 'rock' the nib as you write, the nib will appear to skip.

[Driften]

Maybe you can sent it back to the seller and if they agree it's defective you can change it for what you would like better with out penalty.... worse case you pay a 10-15% restocking fee,

[nm4]

The Sailor music nib is ok but I think the Platinum music nib is far better. It’s incredibly wet with moderate line variation - it’s no cursive italic but does offer some flair. 
 

NF. 

[arcfide]

Based on what you have said, and the combination of the effects that you are seeing, my first inclination is to suspect that you are just very unfamiliar with the type of nib that are Music nibs and Sailor nib grind peculiarities, and that this is causing you trouble. Medium nibs and below, or very blob/ballpointed Broad nibs are relatively insensitive to the rotation of the hand and the angle of writing. If you are used to Pilot nibs, and are just getting into Sailor nibs, the difference in nib grinds is even more pronounced. Stub nibs that are as sharply cut as the Sailor Music nibs appear to be will demand a relatively specific range of angles to get their best, along every axis of rotation of the pen. This is *very* different than fine or EF nibs, especially if you are used to writing quickly and you don't have any interest in calligraphy (which I take to mean you have spent little time cultivating the pen habits that such interests would encourage). Most people with those attributes have a tendency to exhibit relatively extreme pen rotations in their writing even when they are holding the pen at a relatively consistent vertical angle. If you do this with a stub nib that has any degree of sharpness in it, then you will get lots of scratch, lots of feeding and flow issues, and the pen will write like a piece of chipped quartz. The fact that you say there are occasions of wet flow and then times of skipping and dry writing would seem to suggest this even more to me, because you'll hit the proper angle for a moment, which will jet out a flow of ink, but as you rotate away from this, you will dry up what is left on the tip, and eventually starve out the nib. Because the Sailor Music nib is a relatively wide nib with only a single slit, this means that rotations will be even more noticeable and ink flow more affected. 

 

It's also possible that there's just something wrong with the nib/feed, but I assume that you have already checked the obvious candidates such as tine alignment and a proper washing/flushing of the pen? 

 

I think an easy way to diagnose whether the pen rotation in your hand or some other technique problem is the issue vs. whether there is a more technical problem with the pen/ink would be to pick up a Pilot parallel in 1.5mm or the like, and see if you can easily write with that pen while keeping the blade rotation to the page correct. If you can do that easily, and you still get the same issues with the Music nib while replicating the same technique, then there's a fair chance something is wrong with the pen/ink combo, but if not, then it's probably just a matter of technique. 

 

If it is a matter of technique, and you have the style of writing you mentioned and a disinclination towards calligraphic pursuits, then the Music nib might just not be something you care to play with, since writing with it requires a more calligraphically oriented pen orientation and consistency compared to other nibs, which are designed to be tolerant of nib rotations. In that case, exchanging or returning the pen and picking up the same model with a different but equally bold nib might be more fun for you, though maybe no more practical. 🙂 The Broad or Zoom nibs strike me as maybe more likely to be enjoyable for you if you don't like maintaining a consistent nib rotation to the page. The Zoom will let you play with thick and thin lines, but give you a crazy bold line when you want, and the Broad is still interested and bold but a little more forgiving across the board. 

[inkstainedruth]

I recently got a 1911S Wicked Witch pen with a music nib on it.  Inked it up to start with with Sailor Studio #943, because of the guff about non-Sailor inks voiding the warranty on the "special coating on the nib...."

It's a wet nib -- really really really wet.  It makes some of of my Pelikan pens look, well, not *dry* but definitely not AS wet....   That particular ink also made it a bit of a hard starter when I didn't then use the pen on a regular basis.

I may try Sailor Sky High (old formula) in the pen next, to see if it's the ink and not the pen being the problem.

But I *do* have one serious beef.  And that's calling it a "music" nib.  Because it isn't.  Not really.  Sorry, but.  A real music nib has three tines; , and this doesn't (I have some unknown English made -- or German made for the English market -- REAL music nib, harvested from a no-name lever filler and now gracing a very pretty vintage Parker Parkette).  So why the [expletive deleted] can't Sailor call it what it is -- a stub nib?  (IDK -- is the Platinum music nib really a music nib, or just a stub like the Sailor nib is?

And before anyone asks, I'm using the converter, not a cartridge; I use cartridges only under exigent circumstances, or under duress -- and syringe filling cartridges counts as duress in my book: been there done that, bought the t-shirt and lost it in the settlement.  Or maybe spilled ink on the t-shirt.... 

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

[A Smug Dill]

3 minutes ago, inkstainedruth said:

So why the [expletive deleted] can't Sailor call it what it is -- a stub nib?  (IDK -- is the Platinum music nib really a music nib, or just a stub like the Sailor nib is?

 

If you do a Web search for reviews of Music nibs, you'll see that it's well-known that Pilot's and Platinum's Music nibs have three tines while Sailor's only have two.

[arcfide]

2 minutes ago, inkstainedruth said:

But I *do* have one serious beef.  And that's calling it a "music" nib.  Because it isn't.  Not really.  Sorry, but.  A real music nib has three tines; , and this doesn't (I have some unknown English made -- or German made for the English market -- REAL music nib, harvested from a no-name lever filler and now gracing a very pretty vintage Parker Parkette).  So why the [expletive deleted] can't Sailor call it what it is -- a stub nib?  (IDK -- is the Platinum music nib really a music nib, or just a stub like the Sailor nib is?

 

I don't know if it is historically accurate, but I have certainly read on this forum about someone who used to use Music nibs professionally for actual music, and the claim was made that the music nibs absolutely did need to have three tines to be real music nibs, because their original design was to have enough flow to keep up and not clog with the inks they used for music writing as well as keep up with the amount of ink they laid down for the notation. But others like to claim that the distinction isn't as clear, and still others insist that a real music nib has to have flex, which this professional claimed wasn't necessary or even desirable in some cases. 

 

At any rate, as a modern term, there is certainly very little benefit, IMO, to *not* defining a music nib as having three tines, as otherwise it just means "big, wet stub" which isn't as meaningful or helpful, compared to "three tined stub" which is much more distinct. I think Sailor is also the only company that I'm aware of that labels their two tined stub nib as a Music nib. Sailor's advertising of their Music nib makes a subtle jab as Sailor for doing just that. Actually, I've noticed that Platinum likes to take some subtle jabs at both Pilot and Sailor for some of their decisions, and I have to admit that I kind of like them for it. 🙂

[inkstainedruth]

Thanks.  I only have one (semi decent) Platinum pen, a low-end Plaisir, dating from back when Platinum coated the nibs to match the barrel color -- and was sufficiently underwhelmed by the pen overall that I no longer use it (but it also soured me on the brand enough that I haven't really ever found another model I liked well enough to spring for).  Well, that and the Preppies which used to be packed as freebies with some of the 4 oz. bottles of Noodler's ink, but which I have set up with the rollerball heads.

I do really like the MF nib on the 1911S Loch Ness Monster.  Still trying to find the ideal pen/ink/paper combo for the Pro-Gear Slim with the zoom nib (not sure I like the idea of putting a pigmented ink like Souboku in that pen, because the nib seems a little on the dry side).

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

[A Smug Dill]

19 hours ago, arcfide said:

At any rate, as a modern term, there is certainly very little benefit, IMO, to *not* defining a music nib as having three tines,

 

First you need to contend with the fact that nobody is in a position to authoritatively define the specifications of and/or requirements for what constitutes a Music nib, on behalf of the whole industry, either globally or just in Japan. Platinum isn't about to let Sailor make the call and vice versa, and Montblanc isn't going to let Pilot dictate to it what's what. There is no benefit in your, or my, defining Music nibs as having necessarily having three tines independently of what the industry does or doesn't do, when all it does is mislead fellow hobbyists into believing that the same ‘standards’ that aren't recognised by and don't bind pen (or nib) manufacturers apply in the real world.

 

 

Edited March 3, 2021 by A Smug Dill
grammar/clarification

[arcfide]

11 hours ago, A Smug Dill said:

 

First you need to contend with the fact that nobody is in a position to authoritatively define the specifications of and/or requirements for what constitutes a Music nib, on behalf of the whole industry, either globally or just in Japan. Platinum isn't about to let Sailor make the call and vice versa, and Montblanc isn't going to let Pilot dictate to it what's what. There is no benefit in your, or my, defining Music nibs as having necessarily having three tines independently of what the industry does or doesn't do, when all that does is mislead fellow hobbyists into believing the same ‘standards’ that aren't recognised by and don't bind pen (or nib) manufacturers.

 

I'd like to think that we have a little more influence over the pen makers than that. 🙂 Time and social change are pretty effective in altering the meaning of words. It just takes a while. 

[A Smug Dill]

5 minutes ago, arcfide said:

Time and social change are pretty effective in altering the meaning of words. It just takes a while.

 

I prefer to ‘change’ people and give them no option but to ‘accept’ what is here and now, against their grain and contrary to their preferences, just to navigate in the world we all share because that is easier, quicker and more effective in achieving a common understanding, even if the individual is not happier for it.

[fivedime]

Followup...I loaded it up Monday with some good, wet Noodler's and got better results, although at best barely acceptable. With the worst of the inks I tried, I was unable to get any consistent flow (or even any flow at all) no matter how I held the pen. I didn't think returning a pen I had inked and used would be an option, but thanks to that suggestion I looked into the seller's return policy and was pleasantly shocked. A short phone call today confirmed, they will happily accept a return for refund or exchange (Fahrney's if I am allowed to say). So, back it will go for an exchange on the same pen with a more appropriate nib.

 

By way of background, I have written with true italic nibs before just to try them out...not my thing at all but I was able to at least consistently write. And as stated, I have no trouble at all writing with the Franklin Christoph medium stub. So I do suspect it was at very least a sub-par performer for the type. Also, while I expected some learning curve to at least consistently get decent results while writing, what I experienced was WAY beyond that. That said I will happily stipulate when it did write to a decent degree with the Noodler's, it was far more broad than I was expecting based on online writing comparisons, and this was clearly not the nib I should have selected (and never would have if given thr chance to try one first, even one that wrote perfectly for me at first seipe). I suppose those are the pitfalls of buying sight unseen online, in the days where actual brick and mortar pen shops are few and far between (I suppose the closest to me would be Vanness, a mere 5:45 drive away) and pen shows a ever-distant memory. Lessons learned...stick to great retailers with generous customer-forward policies, and maybe when buying something special, that's a better time to stick to tried-and-true rather than stretching your wings and trying the unknown. Based on my experiences (and happiness) with Pilot 823s in F, and a couple of Taccias in both F and EF (stainless Sailor nibs after all), I think I will be going for the glorious 21k nib in EF, and very much less looking forward to trying it. When I again get the urge to broaden my horizons a bit, I'll probably stick to another F-C medium stub, or maybe a fine cursive italic. Or maybe I'll talk a nibsmith into a fine stub over theif objections of "not really worth it."

 

Thanks to all for the advice and they info...

[A Smug Dill]

4 minutes ago, fivedime said:

Or maybe I'll talk a nibsmith into a fine stub over theif objections of "not really worth it."

 

Dan Smith of Nibsmith.com certainly did not object when I requested that:

 

[fivedime]

Wow! Now that's more like it!

 

Thanks to all for the advice, and especially Driften for the suggestion to return it. I wouldn't have thought that possible after inking the pen. My exchange finally arrived, same pen but with an EF nib. It is proving to be everything I expected and hoped for, and then some...

 

My only other experience with Sailor is an older 1911S with a (14k) M nib I've had for years. It's a nice enough pen, writes very nicely (and is butter smooth)...but while I have no trouble holding and writing with it, it just seems too small for me. The 1911L feels just right. But the nib...wow! It writes very smoothly, especially with really light pressure and/or on smoother papers, but does offer a bit of feedback. Toothy would be the right word...not scratchy per se, just a bit of drag. But the 21k nib...while it is marked as a hard ef, there is enough flex to get subtle line variation if pressure is applied. Just a joy to write with!