Pelikan nibs by Montblanc

[stoen]

Hi,

I don’t know if this has been successfully discussed before.

For quite some time I’ve been reading online articles on early Pelikan nibs having been “outsourced”, i.e. manufactured by Montblanc. It was a period that Pelikan still didn’t have in-house nib manufacturing facility. Everybody agrees that the “hearthole” nibs from 1929 belong to that batch, yet it isn’t clear when Pelikan really started its own nib production facility? Is there any clue on signs or imprints by which the MB made Pelikan nibs can be recognized? I’ve read almost everything there is to read on this topic in the Internet, still I have no clue.

If anyone knows more, please be so kind to share the knowledge. Thanks in advance!

[artart]

have you already asked Pelikan or Montblanc ?

they may have some relevant document in their archives 

[dnic]

In the anniversary book of "Günther Wagner 1838-1938" it can be read, that pelikan has been manufacturing gold nibs since 1934.

No evidence, that Montblanc nibs were used for all the previous years, but I'm assuming it.

 

Dominic

[stoen]

On 1/31/2021 at 9:07 AM, dnic said:

pelikan has been manufacturing gold nibs since 1934.

Thanks, Dnic. So it can be presumed that Pelikan may also have had other nib producing parties before 1934. I have read somewhere that those MB outsourced nibs were famous for their outstanding performance, flexibility and durability. I have two pens with such outstanding nibs.

One of those pens dates back to 1931, other to 1933 or 34, but I am not sure if the nibs have been replaced meanwhile. Here they are:

Is there a visual clue for recognizing the nibs made by GW, inhouse between 1934 and 1937? I understand that the “585” sign dates back to 1937.

[Bo Bo Olson]

I've never read about any but MB making Pelikan nibs but it could quite well be possible.

 

Osmia (A top five top of the line pen company....which unfortunately didn't have an office supply company like Soennecken, MB and Pelikan), which had to sell it's nib factory to Degusa (the gold and silver producer).....1932?, but was kept in the same Osmia factory building in none of the workers would move away from family and friends some 50 miles away.....a long way to walk back to see the folks when trains were too expensive for workers. They continued to make the first class Osmia nibs.

 

1922 founded Osmia made nibs for any and all just like MB, and was at least as good if not better.

Osmia also made pens for folks, like Akkermann Department store in Nederlands. All the big boys, Soennecken, Kaweco, MB, and Osmia made parts for the 120 'pen manufactures' to screw together at home or in a tiny work shop.  In 1928 Pelikan was still a 'small boy'.

 

To 1930/31 Kaweco made the best nibs in Germany. The best pens therefor. They started off using Morton nibs from the States @ 1900, but in April of 1914 bought machinery and workers to come to Germany and train Kaweco's workers to make the best nibs in the world. Then came August 1914 and all the American trainers had to go home.Potato's was the trick. Lots and lots of gold hand work with very tiny anvils, annealing and the tip of the nib was placed in a small potato piece to keep the Iridium  compound from burning.

I guess the Kanteen served potato soup every single day.

The owner of Kaweco went bankrupt, from being over extended on the market not because the company was doing badly.

The first thing the new owner did was stop making the worlds best nibs, second best like Soenecken and MB was good enough.....and Kaweco could have sold to Pelikan also after that.....before Kaweco's nibs the best in the world were much too expensive for a start up factory like Pelikan.

 

Rupp made great nibs in Heidelberg from 1922-@1970, for everyone....they didn't make pens. So you have Osmia/Degussa who made nibs with their own mark, Rupp, besides MB that could have made nibs for Pelikan......

[Bo Bo Olson]

On 1/31/2021 at 9:09 PM, stoen said:

I understand that the “585” sign dates back to 1937.

Then you have a year and a half.....Hitler stole the gold in summer of 1938..........no gold nibs made until after the war.

That is new to me, but I don't have any pre-war Pelikans.

[stoen]

Thanks for your elaborate contribution.  Your knowledge of industry history from that period is remarkable. Could you please, perhaps qoute or give some reference to your sources if possible?

 

The “585” year-and-a-half period of Pelikan 100 nib history looks rather clear. It has no secrets thanks to the “585” sign (750 for France).

🙂

 

I’ve started this thread with the idea of sharing knowledge about the in-house made nibs between 1935 and 1936, if they bore signs which could identify them as in-house, as compared to the third party nibs from 1929-1934.

 

I’ve recently heard from an experienced repairperson that those MB made nibs for early Pelikan pens were somewhat narrower, with more rounded profile, more similar in appeaance to a “safety”, than to a broader, later nib profile...

[TitoThePencilPimp]

5 hours ago, stoen said:

Thanks for your elaborate contribution.  Your knowledge of industry history from that period is remarkable. Could you please, perhaps qoute or give some reference to your sources if possible?

 

The “585” year-and-a-half period of Pelikan 100 nib history looks rather clear. It has no secrets thanks to the “585” sign (750 for France).

🙂

 

I’ve started this thread with the idea of sharing knowledge about the in-house made nibs between 1935 and 1936, if they bore signs which could identify them as in-house, as compared to the third party nibs from 1929-1934.

 

I’ve recently heard from an experienced repairperson that those MB made nibs for early Pelikan pens were somewhat narrower, with more rounded profile, more similar in appeaance to a “safety”, than to a broader, later nib profile...

Maybe send the owner of Pelikans Perch website a pm. He may be able to answer or point you in the right direction.

 

I would consider what Bo Bo says as truthful. One of the more knowledgeable members here. I am sure Bo Bo would not mislead you purposely...

 

And Bo Bo loves the flex nibs!! 

[TitoThePencilPimp]

On 2/5/2021 at 2:14 PM, Bo Bo Olson said:

Then you have a year and a half.....Hitler stole the gold in summer of 1938..........no gold nibs made until after the war.

That is new to me, but I don't have any pre-war Pelikans.

Whats not clear to me, is that I recall reading that gold nibs were not made for the domestic market during the war. Sometime during the war palladium nibs were outlawed, and I am under the assumption on nickel? chromium? (insert metal here) were used by Pelikan for the German market. But did gold nib production for overseas market also stop? 

[stoen]

2 hours ago, TitoThePencilPimp said:

I would consider what Bo Bo says as truthful. One of the more knowledgeable members here. I am sure Bo Bo would not mislead you purposely...

Thanks. Would you please be so kind not to put into my words meanings they never had. I truly respect everybody’s knowledge, individual research and reputation, and I have kindly asked for reference not because I would imply someone could “purposly mislead me”

(?!).

🙂

This is not about me. I see FPN as a common forum for all of us, and I’ve simply found to be a good practice mentioning references where we have them, so we can hopefully learn and give each others a chance for sharing the knowledge about pens. Thanks for your understanding.

🙂

 

[Bo Bo Olson]

 

7 hours ago, TitoThePencilPimp said:

And Bo Bo loves the flex nibs!! 

Semi-flex, maxi-semi-flex...yes!.....but flex nibs......superflex are nice but I don't reach for them all that often. There is such a big, huge difference between ...almost....semi-flex and real more than 3 X tine spread superflex. I am a bit AR about that.

Semi-flex are .....flair nibs, natural, with out doing anything fancy, nor is is slower than regular writing. If so you are trying to do something wrong, like nib abuse.

 

The Germans had been making good CN or stainless nibs even before Hitler stole the gold. Osmia(Degussa) matched it's great gold nibs with steel nibs. It had to, in gold was expensive and they were always broke, so made a cheaper nibbed pen.

 

In March of '43, the pen companies were told that in May would be the month they changed 100% over to making war goods, no more pens.

 

I'm sure Hitler took all the gold. Pelikan had other factories in Poland, Spain/Portugal and I think Czechoslovakia/Yugoslavia, and could be Denmark, that could make gold nib pens.They would have made gold nibs. The place where the gold ribbon wheels and any other gold was made was sold only by Degussa which was making nibs itself.

The Bohler(sp) brothers split Osmia in 1938, so the Bohler pens had gold plated Czechoslovakia or Italian nibs. He needed something gold looking to break into the market. Osmia was absorbed and erased by the second tier Faber-Castel pen company in the '50's. Bohler lasted into the '70's.

 

One must not forget, German pens were not all that Big back then. Virtually unknown in the States. (Still that way in the '60's.The only reason I even knew about them ugly Pelikans and clunky MB's was as an Army brat I ended up in Germany......Pelikan 4001 ink was cheaper even imported to the States than Parker and Sheaffer in '60-64, before leaving the States I of course bought the cheaper foreign stuff. Could buy a comic book, or a nickle snickers with the left over money. ) The Snorkel was King of Pens, P-51 the prince....the P-75 hadn't been invented yet.

Hell, we didn't even know of the sleekest most fancy nibbed, great balanced classic Geha 725....which was stomping MB into a mud puddle.  JC on a crutch they were asking $90 for it(360DM), when I thought the P-75's $22 in silver money was a fortune in '71-72.

 

Ignorance was so prevalent before the net....why we didn't even know about cleaning pens back in the day.

 

In the '30's each country outside of perhaps Spain, had their own Big Three national pen companies. Germany was still fighting having started WW1....so was at a disadvantage. Then add customs.

 

Big export areas was South America, the middle east and far east. The German Luxor and Reform were real big there; so big there that the local market share was small.  Top of the line, Reform was so good and big in the import/export market, right after the war, import companies would send him cash in advance to buy pen making supplies. Great pens top class. In the mid '50's he closed down his factory instead of making cheap pens; second tier pens because of the ball points*. Some time later he sold his factory to Mutschler, who did make may types of cheap pens....there for the cheap 1745 Both were Heidelberg  factories. Luxor had to be a north German in the Germans had bombed out the British pen factories, in  mid 1945 a British supply officer ordered 50,000 Luxor pens for the army, which got them back into the export market faster than anyone else.

* Soennecken got into the ball point market too late, so died in the '60's.

 

13 hours ago, stoen said:

Could you please, perhaps qoute or give some reference to your sources if possible?

Not really, some info was from KAWACO/Thomas on our com; whom I talk too at flea markets an hour at a time. He is a scholar on German fountain pens, especially of the once, Fountain Pen Capital of the World Heidelberg. He has a small pen museum; small only because the city would let him put in industrial gitter second floor of an art nouveau fire station. (Some drunk tourist climbed up on a high fountain in town and fell down killing himself...being idiots the city didn't want drunken climbers to visit a fountain pen museum. So he only has 2/5ths of his collection's shown. He had an Uncle that worked in the Kaweco Factory when it was the best pen in the world because of it's Morton nib made by Kaweco. Before 1930....

I would assume Morton went broke making the best nibs in the world, when there were too few who could tell the difference between the best and second best............I don't think Morton made it's own pens.

I don't know when, when they sold the machinery to Kaweco in April of '14 or after?

 

 

So many pens he don't know where to put them....and other machinery.

 

Other info was absorbed here on the com.....being pre-link, don't have a  file of my sources as matter of course....in the old days we called it 'memory'...................every once in a while between memory, or even more assumptions I find I was wrong, and loud about it.

 

However you need, Adreas Lambrou's Fountain pens, Vintage and Modern....100% need that. I didn't know I had an A much less 2 E's, before I got that book. Even that book don't get into this detail.

 

I have 3 more books that don't get into this detail.... all are look at the pretty pen, maybe from early '50's or '30's but nothing like the detail we get into here.

There is a book on Nib Geometry that I was going to get ....been saying that for a decade...

[dnic]

5 minutes ago, Bo Bo Olson said:

I'm sure Hitler took all the gold. Pelikan had other factories in Poland, Spain/Portugal and I think Czechoslovakia/Yugoslavia, and could be Denmark, that could make gold nib pens.They would have made gold nibs.

 

Pelikan had departments for trade and some of these departments have produced colors and something else, too. I don't know any evidence, that Pelikan pens were made in these departments. 

There is even disagreement about the Gdansk (Danzing) Pelikan fountain pens as to whether it was produced in Gdansk or whether this was only claimed for tax reasons.

 

The article on my website is all I can contribute to this discussion:

https://www.pelikan-collectibles.com/en/Pelikan/Nibs/Nib-units-since-1929/index.html

 

PS: At WWII in Germany; if you need a nib repair, you had the option to bring 2 gold nibs for one new or you got a CN nib.

[Bo Bo Olson]

""""""""""There is in principle no difference in the quality of the writing experience of these nibs compared to the gold nibs.""""""""""

 

True for Osmia's great stainless steel nibs that were before Hitler screwed around vs their great gold nibs.

 

My only CN nib is only regular flex, not the semi-flex or superflex so many folks lucked out with.

It is a bare nib, and not worth me taking a section apart to put it on one of my semi-flex pens.....even if I could. I don't know if it will fit a later 400.

 

Nice info about two gold nibs to get one.....very fine blog.

I'd ignored due to LOM the Ibis pen, until I got one that was part of a live auction lot..............at most I expected only a regular flex nib, not the semi-flex one..........and having totally ignored the 'second tier' pen was surprised the nib was gold not steel.

Suggest getting one, could be cheaper than other semi-flex nibbed pens.

 

My Ibis and 100N are post war (they were made to '54...........and the 100N has a superflex nib, that goes out to 5 X...........so I strive when I do ink it, not to take it past 4X, in one should read Richard Binder's fine article on metal fatigue and nibs.

[Christopher Godfrey]

Bo Bo wrote: 

<I'd ignored due to LOM the Ibis pen, until I got one that was part of a live auction lot..............at most I expected only a <regular flex nib, not the semi-flex one..........and having totally ignored the 'second tier' pen was surprised the nib was gold <not steel.

<Suggest getting one, could be cheaper than other semi-flex nibbed pens>

 

Oh, yes!  I have a 1937 Ibis which has a <wonderfully> flexible gold nib (it is the correct Ibis version)  😉

 

Thanks, dnic for the great link!

[stoen]

On 2/7/2021 at 1:02 PM, dnic said:

The article on my website is all I can contribute to this discussion

Fantastic site and very relevant content. Very nicely organized. I did not know it was yours. Congratulations!

BTW, in my “primary” pen (a red tortoise 100N) I have exactly the nib you’ve described in your site as 

“100N nib special imprint, year unknown”

 

I can confirm the year is 1937 - it’s the year my pen was originally bought - it belonged to my family estate. It is the most versatile nib I’ve ever written with.

🙂

 

As for Pelikan 100, I like it not because Pelikan was a major or even reputed pen company at that time, but because of a good engineering idea. I know they were “nothing” in terms of market share, just an ink company. In order to enter the pen market they needed a good idea. Part of that idea was also in outsourcing and modular design, so pens could be assembled from pre-fabricated parts made up to 0.02mm tolerance, in several countries. Why?

Quote

There is even disagreement about the Gdansk (Danzing) Pelikan fountain pens as to whether it was produced in Gdansk or whether this was only claimed for tax reasons.

Let’s bear in mind there was no EU or WTO at that time, so it was more competitive assembling pens from highly standardized imported parts locally than paying higher import taxes for ready made products. 

 

In this view I am tring to investigate this successful concept of having a product without having the most important part of its production: 

-the nib (1929-1933).

 

I still cannot distinguish the “heartless” 1930-33 outsourced nibs from the 1934-36 in-house made nibs. Maybe I haven’t had enough of them in my hands to come to valid conclusions. Sharing any clue is always

welcome.

🙂

[tacitus]

Hello all

I happened to find the description in Pelikan fountain pen (1929) , saying "1929 nib ...- in fact nib geometry is 100% like a no. 4 MB safety nib".

https://www.penboard.de/shop/hlist/PE/VIPW/0

Do you think so? I do not own MB no.4 safety pen.

 

According to Japanese seller, MB no.4 safety pen were manufactured from 1922 to 1929. 

https://pencluster.com/pen/montbranc/montbranc_gallery/montblanc-no-4-safety-octagonal-short/

Dose it have anything to do with the fact that in 1930 the MB-outsourced nib got “heartless”?

 

 

 

[Bo Bo Olson]

I don't know if the old MB Safety pen I had in my hand for a live auction was a #4, but it had by far the most flexible, superflex nib, I've tried by thumbnail, on a fountain pen, and I have two 7 X tine spread superflex nibs, one on a Waterman 52 (the other waterman 52 only goes 6X) and a Soennecken nib that goes 7 X; which is rarer than what is shown in Youtube and Ebay; showing wide spread nibs pre-sprung for your convenience.***

 

Also remember it's the quick snapback that is wished, by those who can write (not me).

I do have a superflex nib, that has a slower snapback, than it once had (perhaps) ...not real bad but slower than my snappier superflex nibs. (After getting a couple superflex nibs the rest, perhaps 4 more; just fell into my hands with out they being  called superflex at all.)

My Hand is still a bit heavy for superflex. I have to sweat to get XXF, think to get EF; so scribble merrily in F.

 

 

***It could be that we all over spread our superflex nibs.

A very good poster found something from Waterman's 30's superflex nibs.....where the Waterman factory was saying they wanted a 3X tine spread and very easy to get it.............so we may be abusing our nibs.

Sigh....the Fabled Pink.........designed for Only 3 X tine spread?

 

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

I'm not sure which other companies used a heart form hole, (I think others did) but I could see Pelikan distancing themselves from MB, going with the round hole.....and if they paid the new die, it wouldn't bother MB to make it for them.

Rupp 1922-1970 made great nibs. No pens.

Osmia '1922 till  mid-late 50's, made nibs for them selves and any other. Having a first class pen. They also made pens for others, like Akkerman Department store in Holland, with Akkerman's brand.

Degussa took over Osmai's nib factory for debt, in 1932....Same great nib for Osmia, and later also made nibs with their brand mark. But Dugussa falls out in it's '32 and later. 

I could be wrong.....perhaps Pelikan sourced their nibs from Rupp or Osmia....I wouldn't doubt that  Kaweco sold nibs.....and after the original owner of Kaweco went bankrupt ...from the market...not the factory.

The new owner did away with all the expensive work, Kaweco did on nibs. From 1900 to April 1914, Kaweco used the worlds best nibs, Morton from the States. April 1914 Kaweco bought up machines and imported American Morton nib experts to train the Germans. August 1914 came and the Americans left.

One of the American tricks was to put a piece of potato on the tip of the nib when doing the fancy work. So by end of 1930 under a new owner, Kaweco no longer made the best and most expensive nibs in the world, having fallen to the level of Soennecken and MB.

 

Any of those five could have made nibs for Pelikan after the heart shape era ended........until Pelikan had it's own nib factory up and running.

[stoen]

Hi,

Trying to contribute to the thread. 

Thanks @tacitus for the find about MB 4 nib geometry (1922-29) conforming the 1929 “Urpelikan” nib. To me the information of the end-of-production coinciding with the Pelikan nibs going heartless sounds very convincing. One extra argument:

Alyhough I’ve never had neither a MB4 nor a Urpelikan (1929 Pelikan transparent fountain pen’s nickname) in my hands, a colleague who had many of either and is expert in restoring, says the 1929 hearthole nibs looked like safety pen nibs indeed. 

 

Thanks @Bo Bo Olson for your research!

 

How to tell the 30-33 outsourced nibs from the later 34-36 in-house nibs is still a question. I’ve never seen heartless Pelikan nibs looking as if made for a safety pen, but I’ve seen some later nibs having survived some rather modern “re-heartholing” attempts.

🙂

[tacitus]

I'd like to ask you several questions.

 

According to A History of Pelikan, "Beginning in 1924, Montblanc relied on Pelikan for ink, and Pelikan, which did not have its own metal working facilities before 1935, relied on Montblanc for nibs".

 

Does it mean Pelikan started to produce its in house nibs in 1935? or in 1934?

 

According to Pelikan Schreibgeräte (green book), however, "The exact time when Pelikan started to produce its own nibs can no longer be dated accurately."

 

Are there any other references that mention the year of in-house nib production?

 

Moreover, according to Gopens, "In 1935 the nib stamped “14K” (used since 1929) is now stamped “585.”

 

Is that possible? If so, Pelikan introduced “585” inscription in line with its in house nib production.

 

Pelikan-collectibles says "With the introduction of the model 100N, the embossing of 14 KARAT was changed to the additional specification 585 - 14 KARAT."

 

I am a little bit confused about it.

 

[stoen]

It is up to the point, having articulated that contradiction. Thanks, @tacitus.

Here’s one more argument that Pelikan couldn’t have started with “585” and “750” as early as 1934 or 1935 when they allegedly started their in-house nib production.

 

This is the point that I’ve repeted several times already: There must be a two-year gap between this start of in-house production and “585 script”. The nibs from these first two years are almost impossible to tell from the earlier “outdourced” nibs. (1930-34)

 

Proof of this are the “magnum” pens, first batch of 1600 having been delivered in late 1935. This batch of pens had nibs with no “585”:

 

https://www.pelikan-collectibles.com/en/Pelikan/Models/Historic-Pens/100N/index.html

 

So one can conclude that those inscriptions could have started with 100N, in 1937. The “magnum” nibs, with the triangle signs are among those which can be positively identified as belonging to that period.

 

Hope my point is clear now.

 

This “585 busines”, officially called millesimal fineness was implemented in Europe some time in early/mid 20th century, AFAIK. To me it looks a bit like implementation of an international regulation covering gold trade and taxation. With a bit of history data mining one could possibly come to a more exact conclusion.

 

I’ve also come across a Pelikan nib with the following script, exactly in this order and layout:

 

 Pelikan

  • 14 •

  KARAT

    585

 

It looked like a very early nib, on which the “585” might have been stamped additionally, when ready-made. Possibly a transitional...