Signature Pen

[A Smug Dill]

19 hours ago, eclectic2316 said:

Am searching for a fountain pen to be used mostly for signature that is distinctive but not pretentious.

 

4 minutes ago, Uncial said:

I guess what I'm getting at is this - the OP could walk into anywhere with a Pilot Metropolitan and you'll probably find someone somewhere who might think it's a bit pretentious

 

Sure. Being mindful of being/seeming “not pretentious” implies expecting to be seen using the pen in the presence of others and judged by them for doing so; but at the same time wanting the pen to be “distinctive”, then, means it is recognisably so to others, and not just the wielder of the pen himself. One could argue that in itself is pretentious in a way, when the O.P. obviously desires to make a particular impression on others and strike a delicate balance, instead of just doing what he wants with a pen when he privately knows its “distinction”, virtue or (financial, functional or sentimental) value.

 

Some of us are just playing along in this thread, and trying to help him select a pen that strikes the desired balance; as such, our opinion and/or perception of Montblanc pens and their users matter, if the O.P. decides to include that as relevant data points.

[carola]

[carola]

5 minutes ago, A Smug Dill said:

 

...but at the same time wanting the pen to be “distinctive”, then, means it is recognisably so to others, and not just the wielder of the pen himself...

I wouldn´t define "distinctive" necessarily as "recognizable", maybe rather as "other than the ubiquitous black with gold trim look".

[A Smug Dill]

1 minute ago, carola said:

I wouldn´t define "distinctive" necessarily as "recognizable", maybe rather as "other than the ubiquitous black with gold trim look".

 

I took it to mean, “not looking like just any pen that would easily pass beneath notice,” inclusive of ballpoint and rollerball pens and whatever else people use to sign documents; thus, it has to be recognisable as something different, and not even just a fountain pen (which, as a class, includes such members as the $4 Jinhao 51A and $15 Platinum Plaisir ‘Black Mist’ pens), but one that conveys refinement and good taste (cf. “not pretentious”) to others.

[carola]

6 minutes ago, A Smug Dill said:

 

I took it to mean, “not looking like just any pen that would easily pass beneath notice,” inclusive of ballpoint and rollerball pens and whatever else people use to sign documents; thus, it has to be recognisable as something different, and not even just a fountain pen (which, as a class, includes such members as the $4 Jinhao 51A and $15 Platinum Plaisir ‘Black Mist’ pens), but one that conveys refinement and good taste (cf. “not pretentious”) to others.

That´s a yes for me, adding that the pen´s looks should do it, even if the brand or the category isn´t identifyable without taking a closer look.

[N1003U]

1 minute ago, Uncial said:

But if it's a question of our perception surely that says something (rather more pathetically) about us as the person looking and making the assumptions?

(I understand this discussion is getting WAY off topic here, but, I suppose with the nature of the OP, it isn't so surprising)

 

Perceptions are what they are. Some are accurate, some less so. Some not at all.  To me the real question who brings what behaviors and preconceptions to the event where those perceptions are formed. But I digress.

 

To avoid doubt where I stand here, let me put it this way: anyone who says that they buy a Montblanc purely for the quality and writing experience, I will assume is, at least a little bit, either lying, unaware, delusional, or some linear combination of thereof. If one tells me they are in love with the MB design (which is distinctive), I would generally give them the benefit of the doubt, but I don't hear that very often as a primary reason why people choose Montblanc.

 

I chose Montblanc the first time because a friend had one and recommended it as a good "upscale" brand to try out for a milestone (celebratory) purchase (and I went back for more despite my first MB, a mid-1980s 144, being a disappointment), and later because I wanted to experience the brand more broadly, as it were... (MB is, overall, in my perception, a good brand).

 

I have enough Montblancs to get a decent statistical sample, and I can say with fairly high confidence that for most production models of MB out there are competitive models (independent of price) that have similar size, balance and writing feel, and that MB quality is probably not objectively better or worse than a lot of other top-end fountain pens. Maybe what I can say at least somewhat objectively about Montblanc pens is that they are unique, and generally good performers.

 

The point being made (at least by me, but I was really responding to another post) in all this is that there are, indeed people in this world, who, for whatever reason, seem to have an unusually large need to show-off. These people are also sometimes quite annoying with their transparent narcissism. Pride is often a polarizing thing. Not unlike in this discussion.

 

I would propose there is a difference between someone who enjoys using luxury items in daily life (I suspect there are many here in that category), and one who makes an obvious show of using luxury items in their daily lives, regardless of their ability to utilize/appreciate the advantages (I suspect there are also some of those here in that category, too). Where one of those behaviors transitions to the other, is not always easy to see, and indeed, depending on one's predispositions, one can see elements of both in many instances, but at the extreme fringes, both behaviors are not that difficult to identify.

 

To try and pull this back in to the topic at hand, I would also say, I see no particular problem in buying having a pen specifically for signatures. We humans have a very long tradition of sanctifying (or at least setting apart as special) objects that represent important aspects of our lives.

[carola]

3 minutes ago, N1003U said:

(I understand this discussion is getting WAY off topic here, but, I suppose with the nature of the OP, it isn't so surprising)

 

Perceptions are what they are. Some are accurate, some less so. Some not at all.  To me the real question who brings what behaviors and preconceptions to the event where those perceptions are formed. But I digress.

 

To avoid doubt where I stand here, let me put it this way: anyone who says that they buy a Montblanc purely for the quality and writing experience, I will assume is, at least a little bit, either lying, unaware, delusional, or some linear combination of thereof. If one tells me they are in love with the MB design (which is distinctive), I would generally give them the benefit of the doubt, but I don't hear that very often as a primary reason why people choose Montblanc.

 

I chose Montblanc the first time because a friend had one and recommended it as a good "upscale" brand to try out for a milestone (celebratory) purchase (and I went back for more despite my first MB, a mid-1980s 144, being a disappointment), and later because I wanted to experience the brand more broadly, as it were... (MB is, overall, in my perception, a good brand).

 

I have enough Montblancs to get a decent statistical sample, and I can say with fairly high confidence that for most production models of MB out there are competitive models (independent of price) that have similar size, balance and writing feel, and that MB quality is probably not objectively better or worse than a lot of other top-end fountain pens. Maybe what I can say at least somewhat objectively about Montblanc pens is that they are unique, and generally good performers.

 

The point being made (at least by me, but I was really responding to another post) in all this is that there are, indeed people in this world, who, for whatever reason, seem to have an unusually large need to show-off. These people are also sometimes quite annoying with their transparent narcissism. Pride is often a polarizing thing. Not unlike in this discussion.

 

I would propose there is a difference between someone who enjoys using luxury items in daily life (I suspect there are many here in that category), and one who makes an obvious show of using luxury items in their daily lives, regardless of their ability to utilize/appreciate the advantages (I suspect there are also some of those here in that category, too). Where one of those behaviors transitions to the other, is not always easy to see, and indeed, depending on one's predispositions, one can see elements of both in many instances, but at the extreme fringes, both behaviors are not that difficult to identify.

 

To try and pull this back in to the topic at hand, I would also say, I see no particular problem in buying having a pen specifically for signatures. We humans have a very long tradition of sanctifying (or at least setting apart as special) objects that represent important aspects of our lives.

+1

[A Smug Dill]

5 minutes ago, N1003U said:

I would propose there is a difference between someone who enjoys using luxury items in daily life (I suspect there are many here in that category), and one who makes an obvious show of using luxury items in their daily lives, regardless of their ability to utilize/appreciate the advantages (I suspect there are also some of those here in that category, too).

 

One has to wonder, when the focus of the O.P.'s line of questioning is about how the pen is perceived, but with no mention of either what his/her signature is like or how he/she wants it to look on paper, whether the actual payload is in being seen signing with the pen as opposed to how to beautify or dignify one's autograph on documents.

[sgphototn]

 If your idea is to impress others, you've shown your character. If your idea is to impress yourself, you've shown your character.

 

Too many of the former, and unfortunately, too few of the latter.

[N1003U]

33 minutes ago, sgphototn said:

 If your idea is to impress others, you've shown your character. If your idea is to impress yourself, you've shown your character.

 

Too many of the former, and unfortunately, too few of the latter.

Well put: succinct and on-point.

 

I believe (or at least observe) that fortunately there are fewer of the former than the latter, but I agree, even though fewer, the former still seem to punch above their weight in terms of ability to annoy.

[bunnspecial]

Funny how quickly a thread devolves into MB-bashing with the predictable repetition of tired clichés and the like.

 

BTW, it's certainly not the only brand that does this, but B and larger nibs on MBs are stubby-not overly so(at least not until you get to a BB or 3B) and still fairly forgiving to use, but they do impart a very distinctive look to a signature with them. The Lamy 2K B is stubby in a similar vein, although not as much as a Montblanc B. I even see it a bit in the B on my Pelikan M800.

[N1003U]

And to put my 2-cents-worth into the mid-thread discussion about pretentiousness: sometimes pretentious is exactly what I am after with (some of) my pens, for example as a prop support a major celebration or event.

 

Why else would I bother with pen that is 215mm long posted and has a cap that is 24mm in diameter and weighs almost 50g? With a nib that is almost as large as the blade of pocket knife? It sure as hell is not to write a novel (at least not for me), or stick in a notebook as an EDC. What justification is there for a pen that costs well into four figures, is illustrated on the barrel with gold leaf, and is sealed with some horrendously rare and difficult to use, hand-applied lacquer? None, really, other that it is unique, considered by some attractive, I can sort of appreciate the skill that went into creating it, it does work as a fountain pen, and it IS fun to be pretentious, ONCE IN A WHILE.

**************

 

Perhaps illustrative example from just the other day: my 96-year-old office landlord came into my office to present me with one of his 10 author's copies of a book he just published (my wife and I helped him quite a bit with editing and proofreading), and he wanted to inscribe the book with a few words and sign the book for us. This book is on a topic that describes some of his key life work as a geologist.

 

So what do I do?

 

Hand him the beat-up Lamy ballpoint that was sitting on the corner of my desk (yes, I do keep ballpoints around, and they work just fine),

 

OR

 

do I make a big show of going over to the cabinet where I store my "good" pens, pull out a tray of my "best" pens , and ask him which pen he would like to use sign? Is it inappropriate to recognize the honor being bestowed upon me by offering up to the person doing the honor, with all of the "pretentious" pomp and circumstance I can muster, the very finest tools I have available to him to perform the honor?

 

Sometimes it is fun to do things that are a little ridiculous. It might even be a nice way to show someone how much they are appreciated. The question then to me is then, for what occasion, and to what end? sgphototn I think captured the essence well above.

 

Epilogue: My landlord picked a Pelikan M605 Stresemann, which I had just cleaned out, so of course he was then invited to choose an ink, which turned out to be 4001 blue-black, filled the pen himself, and signed the book, after which I was invited down into his private residence to drink sparking wine. This is a case where I would argue a special pen, the more pretentious the better, selected solely for the purpose of a signature, is EXACTLY what the situation called for. 

[ParramattaPaul]

2 hours ago, carola said:

No, waggling it around would be too obvious. It just demonstratively sits on the table so everybody can see it and especially the snowy cap. They don´t really take it out to write with as they mainly don´t write anything. Most of them aren´t even pen people, I think, it´s rather a thing like wearing the right clothes, the right shoes, the right tie. Seems to be part of the peer code.

 

Cell phones were a similar thing in the early/middle 90s when they weren´t as common. They were taken out of the pocket and placed on the table for everyone to see. I remember there even was a service to make the phone ring without a call coming in, so people could fake being called on their cell phone to seem more important.

 

I can understand people liking and writing MBs. It´s not my kind of pen altogether but that´s a personal thing. Using a fountain pen is a common basis. For that species of MB guys it´s not using a fountain pen, it´s carrying an expensive business and career accessory and the attitude that goes with it, I am not in the least interested in.

 

Just saw N1003U´s post and yes, that´s what I´m talking about.

 

And I fully agree with Uncial´s last post: Buy what you like and what you want to use. The point is that exactly that isn´t the point for that species of MB guys. They "carry" MB because there seems to be that weird notion that carrying somewhat uniform MBs says anything about them that might propel their career. At least, that´s my impression.

 

 

Carola, your assessment is spot on, and you've explained the behaviour perfectly.

[N1003U]

18 minutes ago, bunnspecial said:

Funny how quickly a thread devolves into MB-bashing with the predictable repetition of tired clichés and the like.

???

 

This comment sent me back through the thread, and I have to say again.  ???

 

I saw one unidentified (other than by personality type) Montblanc OWNER being bashed, but I struggle to see anywhere here where anyone is bashing Montblanc products themselves. Did I miss something somewhere? If I did, please let me know.

 

I think a few here are actually Montblanc owners, and of those I know, happy owners at that. I know mine are joy (except that damn 144 whose cap never did work correctly, but even that pen is a joy to write with--it just isn't always a joy to carry  )

[N1003U]

15 minutes ago, ParramattaPaul said:

 

 

Carola, your assessment is spot on, and you've explained the behaviour perfectly.

+1

[ParramattaPaul]

39 minutes ago, N1003U said:

Well put: succinct and on-point.

 

I believe (or at least observe) that fortunately there are fewer of the former than the latter, but I agree, even though fewer, the former still seem to punch above their weight in terms of ability to annoy.

There are a few things that I believe need to be added to this discussion. 

 

First of all, stereotyping behavoius is dangerous and unjust.  I suggest that it is a behaviour that one should avoid. 

 

Secondly, psychologists have demonstrated that all of us form a first opinion in a very few seconds of meeting someone.  We all do it.  It is a natural consequence of our primordial survival mechanism. 

 

Knowing the above, rehabilitation specialists preparing disabled clients returning to the workplace commonly advise their clients to dress better than (a scale above) their able-bodied peers since a physical disability, as is true of a number of 'differences' are perceived negatively and affects that important first impression.

 

Others,  those confronting class or social barriers having experienced the effects of judgmentalism will often a dress better.  Is it a pretense? Or, is it saying 'I am a person of worth, a person who wants to achieve, and want to move forward and upward.?

[BaronWulfraed]

16 hours ago, Mr.Rene said:

Really? A fountain pen to be used for signature

 is always pretentious...I think...😂🤣👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻

Well... If it is also one's daily use pen, probably not.

 

My preference for "signature pens" is a B or large stub (<1.0mm -- above that I consider calligraphic nibs), and seldom matters what the pen itself is. Pilot Vanishing Point with 0.6mm stub; a Platinum 3776 Century with C nib, currently a Ranga matte finish ebonite Bamboo with 18K Bock B nib (which sits next to a polished finish Bamboo with 18K Bock M nib, next to a matte finish Mini Sugarcane with 18K Bock F nib)

[Manofadventure]

16 hours ago, Mr.Rene said:

Really? A fountain pen to be used for signature

 is always pretentious...I think...😂🤣👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻

Hahaha! ☝️

[sgphototn]

As to Montblanc black pens, when I see one the first question I ask myself "Is it a fake?" The same when I see someone sporting a Rolex.

[Manofadventure]

8 hours ago, Karmachanic said:

 

Well, if that's the way your gonna be - a Soennecken S26, B nib.

 

I would take the Soennecken 510/ 510S and that's only because I have yet to acquire myself a Soennecken 111 or 222 Extra. Soennecken made some of the most amazing pens!