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KWZ IG Blue-black and R&K Salix fading and aging...and other blues.


Dimy

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I wonder what you mean that Salix doesn't oxidize. Of the 3 "modern" IG blue-blacks I use regularly (Platinum, Pelikan 4001, and Salix), Salix is the only one that does anything like the historical blue-to-black color transformation. Isn't that oxidation? 

 

I'm sure that it is wimpy, compared to the steel-eating inks of old, though! 

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3 hours ago, Paganini said:

I wonder what you mean that Salix doesn't oxidize. Of the 3 "modern" IG blue-blacks I use regularly (Platinum, Pelikan 4001, and Salix), Salix is the only one that does anything like the historical blue-to-black color transformation. Isn't that oxidation? 

 

I'm sure that it is wimpy, compared to the steel-eating inks of old, though! 

I was being lazy. My apologies. 

Salix as a stand alone ink, is truly a lovely ink. With wide nibs, dramatic shading etc. 

However, compared to more substantial iron gall inks (Essri, Akkerman #10, Registrars and I believe KWZ blue black) it doesn't feel like an IG ink. It doesn't oxide as dramatically as said inks. At least in my experience. Some of my writing with one of the above has almost turned black.... 

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  • 2 weeks later...

So I did a blunder and posted it in wrong thread.........what was I doing when I did that seriously thinking right now..........sorry for the mess.

 

swabs are in and I will let pic do the talking. The images of swabs are quite different and the dark in KWZ far exceed Sallix.....Sallix feels muted down in comparison, well aside from that swabs are in....finally.

 

The images were taken on 15th.....again sorry for mess up here.

 

 

large.967698746_Swab1months.jpg.3e7291a74c1e1c3ab8a9469b86a78469.jpg

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  • 2 weeks later...

2nd month results for write ups are in. The difference now is starting to show in real life quite easily with Sallix starting to get lighter in shade and losing black shade, tilting to light blue side. This phenomena is best seen in pics of Nightingale 70GSM paper but is starting to show in all other papers as well to small degree. Rest of ink have not shown any significant change to be mentioned (which is to be expected as there will be something wrong if they stated to change in closed notebook just lying outside). I do expect them to show some result eventually though. I must make it clear that I am comparing a dry KWZ sample of ink VS wet Sallix and a wet KWZ ink test is waste as the ink remains quite like true blue-black (frankly I like it this way and wish more inks retained this colour.......Yazeh's bible ink review comes to mind for me with this blue black with wet pen, its conditional generation of this colour but easily possible.....I think).

 

The difference in paper used seems to have not shown enough change but from what I see there is some signs and this will require further investigation so I will keep my observation to myself until I can give some certain reply regarding this (a couple of months should make things clear so not too long to get complete picture I hope)

 

On side note I have ordered Endless notebook, so a tomoe river paper is now available and I intend to keep few sheets for experimentation, if anyone is interested then can mention and I will add the result by 15 (I hope) along with swabs results.

 

large.972139428_Classmate50GSM2Mon.jpg.c2ed4d28f0183976cfcf747a159048d3.jpg

 

Classmate 50 approx GSM notebook

 

large.872400043_Navneetyuuva60GSM2mon.jpg.fe98ca552b6982f2f6f0983eeb40678c.jpg

 

Navneet youva 60 approx GSM notbook.

 

large.1565490710_Tajwhite60GSM2mon.jpg.8852fbccb1e2dbb9d19afe1cb6b5e862.jpg

 

Taj white 60 or 70 approx GSM notebook. One can observe if seen closely that sallix is tilting to blue side while losing its black shade of blue black.

large.760399159_Nightingale70GSM2mon.jpg.9441b894acc7f1759b0aaa088cb80dab.jpg

 

Nightingale 70GSM paper. Here the phenomena mentioned is very easily visible. On slight cream colour paper the Sallix seems to be on blue side compared to KWZ.

large.2046671400_JKcedar100GSM2mon.jpg.8a782ae46efd849182885f85e472a6c9.jpg

 

JK cedar 100 GSM Paper.

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I love these sort of experiments. I've added them to the list of tests. If you see any more, please let me know.

 

 

 

Fountain pens are my preferred COLOR DELIVERY SYSTEM (in part because crayons melt in Las Vegas).

Create a Ghostly Avatar and I'll send you a letter. Check out some Ink comparisons: The Great PPS Comparison 

Don't know where to start?  Look at the Inky Topics O'day.  Then, see inks sorted by color: Blue Purple Brown Red Green Dark Green Orange Black Pinks Yellows Blue-Blacks Grey/Gray UVInks Turquoise/Teal MURKY

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Dimy, Keep up the good work. 

I'm not sure, if I got what you mean by a dry KWZ blue black. From what I read it's very wet ink. Can you clarify?

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1 hour ago, yazeh said:

Dimy, Keep up the good work. 

I'm not sure, if I got what you mean by a dry KWZ blue black. From what I read it's very wet ink. Can you clarify?

 

Ah my bad here. What I ment was KWZ used in a dry pen (the preppy used was tuned to dry running), KWZ is wet ink thats true.

 

KWZ in dry pen seemed to give same colour as sallix initially (even same aging in first month), this made comparison between 2 a lot more relevant as opposed to putting KWZ in wet pen where it becomes almost black/ true blue-black if one asks me or even a normal flowing pen where it becomes same or near same(camlin Trinity elegante used in this case is wet pen, not as wet as some others but still wet compared to average pens).

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Ok. Make sense :)

A friend suggested that if Salix/ Scabiosa was used on Cotton/ Linen paper, maybe they would be light fast. He posited that there might be an ingredient in the paper making process, which dislodges the ink. I'm not well versed in chemistry so I won't venture further but I'm doing a light test with Scabiosa and see how it goes.... :)

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8 minutes ago, yazeh said:

Ok. Make sense :)

A friend suggested that if Salix/ Scabiosa was used on Cotton/ Linen paper, maybe they would be light fast. He posited that there might be an ingredient in the paper making process, which dislodges the ink. I'm not well versed in chemistry so I won't venture further but I'm doing a light test with Scabiosa and see how it goes.... :)

 

Thats an interesting suggestion, in my case this is aging test so not really exposing to light, but paper does seems to play role here as well, I will wait for couple of months before reporting since I need to make sure what exactly is happening.

 

For scabiosa test, I will be eagerly waiting for results here.

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Many papers use calcium carbonate as a cheap way to make bright paper while keeping costs down. It also keeps the pH in the alkaline range. Either ground limestone, for cheaper papers, or precipitated calcium carbonate for more upscale papers.  There are other types of common mineral fillers which may be alkaline as well. I imagine such an alkali will react with the delicate chemistry of inks, and particularly with iron gall inks. I read that archivists believe dye transfer prints and cyanotypes are harmed by contact with buffered materials because the susceptibility of the dyes.

 

This would apply to acid free papers, but archival papers would be neutral.

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58 minutes ago, OleJuul said:

Many papers use calcium carbonate as a cheap way to make bright paper while keeping costs down. It also keeps the pH in the alkaline range. Either ground limestone, for cheaper papers, or precipitated calcium carbonate for more upscale papers.  There are other types of common mineral fillers which may be alkaline as well. I imagine such an alkali will react with the delicate chemistry of inks, and particularly with iron gall inks. I read that archivists believe dye transfer prints and cyanotypes are harmed by contact with buffered materials because the susceptibility of the dyes.

 

This would apply to acid free papers, but archival papers would be neutral.

Thanks Ole for clearing that up :thumbup:

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I'd really like to hear some resources discussion the use of calcium carbonate and its effect on fountain pen ink longevity, because I can't find any information out there. I did however find some information on IG inks in general and paper related to calcium carbonate:

 

Nanotechnologies for Conservation of Cultural Heritage:  Paper and Canvas Deacidification | Langmuir (acs.org)

18 (d1wqtxts1xzle7.cloudfront.net)

 

These two papers seem to suggest that calcium carbonate actually improves the longevity and color of the IG inks compared to other deacidification techniques, but there are obvious limitations in comparing those techniques to our fountain pen paper. The 18 paper does point out that excess alkalinity appears to be a detriment, but that is a different treatment process that resulted in excess coating, compared to more neutral or slightly alkaline buffered results.

 

I guess I'm still not yet seeing in the scans above what people seem to be reporting about Salix and the "magically fading" ink or the like. It looks perfectly normal to me at this point. I suppose we'll need wait longer for things to show. 

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3 hours ago, arcfide said:

 

I guess I'm still not yet seeing in the scans above what people seem to be reporting about Salix and the "magically fading" ink or the like. It looks perfectly normal to me at this point. I suppose we'll need wait longer for things to show. 

 

Na its definitely not fading, nope. Its lighter then KWZ thats all (KWZ just moves to black end of blue-black while sallix to blue end). I say its just different nature and nothing is wrong with that.

 

We will have to see later how both actually compare...I mean 2 month is nothing in timeframe of inks, especially these ones and even more in this test.

 

For calcium discussion, that does sound very curious, don't know much personally so eager to see what info is out there. Thanks for sharing them.

 

5 hours ago, OleJuul said:

Many papers use calcium carbonate as a cheap way to make bright paper while keeping costs down. It also keeps the pH in the alkaline range. Either ground limestone, for cheaper papers, or precipitated calcium carbonate for more upscale papers.  There are other types of common mineral fillers which may be alkaline as well. I imagine such an alkali will react with the delicate chemistry of inks, and particularly with iron gall inks. I read that archivists believe dye transfer prints and cyanotypes are harmed by contact with buffered materials because the susceptibility of the dyes.

 

This would apply to acid free papers, but archival papers would be neutral.

 

Thanks for info, looks like something to look into. Again personally no knowledge so always eager to see opinions.

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5 hours ago, Dimy said:

 

Na its definitely not fading, nope. Its lighter then KWZ thats all (KWZ just moves to black end of blue-black while sallix to blue end). I say its just different nature and nothing is wrong with that....

 

Salix's tendency to move toward that weak blue is why I don't like it. I prefer the KWZ, Registrar's, and others.

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23 hours ago, TSherbs said:

 

Salix's tendency to move toward that weak blue is why I don't like it. I prefer the KWZ, Registrar's, and others.

Agreed with you on this, it gets too dull for my taste on some page, will see how it goes on multiple samples.

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1 hour ago, RJS said:

Lovely looking pen... what is it, please?

ASA Maya with jowo nib in black matte finish.

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Thanks. It's the kind of shape of pen I like the most. I have pretty big hands I like straighter pens that are fairly wide.

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9 hours ago, RJS said:

13mm diameter section, huh? Wow, that pen is huge! 

Not a small pen, but quite comfortable, for me at least. Some level of changes can be done during order as per need.

 

I won't call it jumbo or huge either though. Just a large pen.

 

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