Nibs Pre-Tuned

[MoriartyR]

I think there’s an additional point to be made here about what should be the requirement for a good online sales business. Dill’s example with Parker is a good example where their business is not currently fit to service remote sales. They provided a functioning nib, but the line width was not acceptable to a reasonable customer even though it presumably satisfied Parker’s manufacturing tolerances. So Parker failed because their business only works acceptably for customers who can test the pens in-store.

 

The point is that if you are buying remotely you cannot dip-test the nib and the seller therefore needs to build into their service a way to address this.

 

Many online clothes stores long ago realised that customers need a fuss-free returns process in order to buy with confidence without trying the clothes on. And the customers need reliable advice on the fit of each garment (e.g. shoes fit slightly larger than size so order a half-size larger than usual). These companies, like Pret a Porter / Mr Porter have worked this out beautifully and their business model works. Anyone who sells fountain pens online needs to address this issue of the customer not being able to try the nib before buying, otherwise they will (and should) be put out of business by vendors who can address this.

 

[Detman101]

1 hour ago, MoriartyR said:

I think there’s an additional point to be made here about what should be the requirement for a good online sales business. Dill’s example with Parker is a good example where their business is not currently fit to service remote sales. They provided a functioning nib, but the line width was not acceptable to a reasonable customer even though it presumably satisfied Parker’s manufacturing tolerances. So Parker failed because their business only works acceptably for customers who can test the pens in-store.

 

The point is that if you are buying remotely you cannot dip-test the nib and the seller therefore needs to build into their service a way to address this.

 

Many online clothes stores long ago realised that customers need a fuss-free returns process in order to buy with confidence without trying the clothes on. And the customers need reliable advice on the fit of each garment (e.g. shoes fit slightly larger than size so order a half-size larger than usual). These companies, like Pret a Porter / Mr Porter have worked this out beautifully and their business model works. Anyone who sells fountain pens online needs to address this issue of the customer not being able to try the nib before buying, otherwise they will (and should) be put out of business by vendors who can address this.

 

"Customer Service" is such a rare find these days.
From fountain pens...to online gaming...to storefront retail.
Everyone seems to have a "Buy/use my product and don't you dare complain!" attitude...
Then they complain when their business/company/gaming server goes down in flames.
Is the world really that ignorant and angry? Why not just take care of the customer??
That WAS the original point of starting the business....wasn't it??

 

[MoriartyR]

Detman, I think people have pen stores and they decide to expand into online sales without really understanding that online is a different business than brick & mortar. Most of the really successful online businesses in different industries have reinvented the traditional business model to redefine what service means. Some of them - Amazon, Uber, etc. provide really great customer service - streets ahead of traditional businesses. There is much more to it than just building a website.

 

I actually think that service is even more important for online businesses. When you, as a customer, do not see who you are dealing with, creating trust is essential otherwise there is no brand, no customer experience, no customer loyalty.

 

 

[Detman101]

7 hours ago, MoriartyR said:

Detman, I think people have pen stores and they decide to expand into online sales without really understanding that online is a different business than brick & mortar. Most of the really successful online businesses in different industries have reinvented the traditional business model to redefine what service means. Some of them - Amazon, Uber, etc. provide really great customer service - streets ahead of traditional businesses. There is much more to it than just building a website.

 

I actually think that service is even more important for online businesses. When you, as a customer, do not see who you are dealing with, creating trust is essential otherwise there is no brand, no customer experience, no customer loyalty.

 

 

That is a great explanation of the foundation of their shortcomings. Such a shame that they aren't flexible/adaptable enough to transition. And as always, it's the customers that suffer first.
Thank you.

[Writing Uphill]

An update on Nibsmith: After a month of waiting, still no response. Really unbelievable. I’m wondering how much longer he’ll be able to stay in business. 

[silverlifter]

Worth bearing in mind that Dan is in Iowa, and they are currently sitting on around >1000 cases a day of coronavirus, with more than 4500 deaths. From where I sit, both of those numbers are terrifying. 

[Writing Uphill]

3 hours ago, silverlifter said:

Worth bearing in mind that Dan is in Iowa, and they are currently sitting on around >1000 cases a day of coronavirus, with more than 4500 deaths. From where I sit, both of those numbers are terrifying. 

Yes, we definitely don’t know how it is effecting him, but he seemed to have no problem shipping out and it sounds like some of these issues are more long-standing. I was able to remedy the issue with a $12 purchase from Jetpens. With all going on the world right now, I’m quite OK with that resolution. Just want to help others not make the same mistake I made, especially if they have more money on the line. 

[Detman101]

8 hours ago, Writing Uphill said:

Yes, we definitely don’t know how it is effecting him, but he seemed to have no problem shipping out and it sounds like some of these issues are more long-standing. I was able to remedy the issue with a $12 purchase from Jetpens. With all going on the world right now, I’m quite OK with that resolution. Just want to help others not make the same mistake I made, especially if they have more money on the line. 

Thank you!
The more we know, the better off we are. 😉

I let go of the $140 I spent to send my nib off to la-la land to have it worked on.
Moving forward with an FPR Ultra-Flex like I have in my primary pen and detaching from the loss.
The less I think about it...the better off I am, and if it does come back...yay.
If not, I've already let it go and moved on.

 

[ginx]

Unfortunately from my experience in this region of the world many online stores beside the fact they lack the competent personal (their salesman never used or held a fountain pen in their lives and have no ideea what it is exactly or how it works) they are selling this writting instrumets like a person would sell vevetables at thr market. I was asking for the pen to be cheked before it will be send and made it clear that if a non complying item will be send for sure  it will be followed by a return but nobody seems to care. So a fountainpen pen with s bad nib or a scratched body is send and when naturaly I ask for refound they are very noisy and tray to put the blame on me. When I have encounter this type of situations I made a habbit firstly not to use that store any more and to speak and tell my stories so others may not have to deal with similar situations. 

A defect, scratchy, scratched new pen or an used pen must not be sold. If the buyer get a bad pen must not accept it and must take measures. Because many people are accepting to be treated badly while they are paying in full the service or product the stores' and factories' behaviour will not change. 

We as customers are responsable to ensure the stores and factories are treating us fair. 

I find unacceptable that an 400 Euro brand new Pelikan M805 was not able put ink on paper after I cleaned it and inked for the first time. The customers service changed the nib but their so called "expert" maneged to scratch the nib on the half of it's face and sent to me anyway. Sent it back again and this time after 2 months of waiting came a new pen from the factory but it was even worst. After they get anoyed that I complained again for what they did they cut the comumication at all. I had to lose time and money and energy to "repair" a broken new pen. I was stupid I should have writed to Pelikan Germany or I do not know to whom but I should not let the situation like that.

1 euro second hand Chinese Rainbow 202 fountain pen bought from a second hand marked found throwed in a box not just wrote after I ink it for the first time but beets the hell of the up mentioned Pelikan. Why shell I buy in the future a Pelikan if they did whay they did. After reading on forums I saw that there are other people unsatisfied by Pelikan's QC. We must not buy until they solve their problems. "A bad deal is worst then no deal" 

[Detman101]

20 minutes ago, ginx said:

Unfortunately from my experience in this region of the world many online stores beside the fact they lack the competent personal (their salesman never used or held a fountain pen in their lives and have no ideea what it is exactly or how it works) they are selling this writting instrumets like a person would sell vevetables at thr market. I was asking for the pen to be cheked before it will be send and made it clear that if a non complying item will be send for sure  it will be followed by a return but nobody seems to care. So a fountainpen pen with s bad nib or a scratched body is send and when naturaly I ask for refound they are very noisy and tray to put the blame on me. When I have encounter this type of situations I made a habbit firstly not to use that store any more and to speak and tell my stories so others may not have to deal with similar situations. 

A defect, scratchy, scratched new pen or an used pen must not be sold. If the buyer get a bad pen must not accept it and must take measures. Because many people are accepting to be treated badly while they are paying in full the service or product the stores' and factories' behaviour will not change. 

We as customers are responsable to ensure the stores and factories are treating us fair. 

I find unacceptable that an 400 Euro brand new Pelikan M805 was not able put ink on paper after I cleaned it and inked for the first time. The customers service changed the nib but their so called "expert" maneged to scratch the nib on the half of it's face and sent to me anyway. Sent it back again and this time after 2 months of waiting came a new pen from the factory but it was even worst. After they get anoyed that I complained again for what they did they cut the comumication at all. I had to lose time and money and energy to "repair" a broken new pen. I was stupid I should have writed to Pelikan Germany or I do not know to whom but I should not let the situation like that.

1 euro second hand Chinese Rainbow 202 fountain pen bought from a second hand marked found throwed in a box not just wrote after I ink it for the first time but beets the hell of the up mentioned Pelikan. Why shell I buy in the future a Pelikan if they did whay they did. After reading on forums I saw that there are other people unsatisfied by Pelikan's QC. We must not buy until they solve their problems. "A bad deal is worst then no deal" 

I agree! These companies hiring employees that have no interest, knowledge, emotional investment or attachment to "Fountain Pens" ruins the entire experience. The companies become worse...and the experience is worse for the buyer/end-user. Unfortunately, as these companies attempt to capitalize on a shrinking section of the market...they hire people that have less and less experience so that they can pay them less money.
The only ones that suffer are us...the end users.
I do not have faith in the large companies that have lost their way...they have lost their connection to the joy of fountain pens and only see "MONEY".
They aren't in it for the right reason anymore.

[ginx]

2 hours ago, Detman101 said:

I agree! These companies hiring employees that have no interest, knowledge, emotional investment or attachment to "Fountain Pens" ruins the entire experience. The companies become worse...and the experience is worse for the buyer/end-user. Unfortunately, as these companies attempt to capitalize on a shrinking section of the market...they hire people that have less and less experience so that they can pay them less money.
The only ones that suffer are us...the end users.
I do not have faith in the large companies that have lost their way...they have lost their connection to the joy of fountain pens and only see "MONEY".
They aren't in it for the right reason anymore.

Yes most of them looks only for money. A company to stay alive must make money but again must not be gready, must stay behind their products and try to keep their customers happy so they could come back. Many of these companies live because of their past and because of their name charge premium prices. I was of the opinion that if the price is high the quality is at the same level. I understood that I was wrong. Not all the expensive pens writes bad and not all the cheap pens writes good, that is true. But I have found some gems in the dirt too. Anyhow with the price the expectations too are different. I am more oppened to the ideea to play and fix a cheap pen, and take in consideration a posibility to brake it, then an expensive one. When I pay the asked price I expect to get the right value for my money. No buts here. With these kind of experiences they are cutting their brach from under their feet. I had bad experiences with modern pens like Parker Premier, Parker Sonnet, Pelikan M805, M800, M1000, Sheaffer Legacy Heritage, Waterman Carene, Pilot Custom 74. These pens came with nib problems, ink flow problems and a few I was able to send for refound. It was not that I could not solve the problem by myself but why do it? They do not pay me for it. Nowhere was written on the site that they sell pens are not useble or had dents on the nibs or the lines are not alignet. I will start to look more and more to the old used but in good condition pens that I can buy for a faire price and in this way maybe contribue to the income of some persone that try to make a living too and not fatten the pokets of the companies that do not give the respect and value back at least to some of their customers. Until recently I was againt Chinese fountain pens because some of them are just copy the models created by these big companies but why must I pay premium for a pen that do not writes or gets to me in a non satisfaying condition when I can pay less and get something that at least writes. An unexpensive pen can be ussed with love, be of the quality even without overpice pecious plastic and unnecesary precius metals and can be left to to your kids to be used by them too. Many times a cheap pen gave me more joy then a flagship one. I will look more for this joy and less to gather precy pens that stay in boxes because need a nibmeister. 

[A Smug Dill]

5 hours ago, ginx said:

Unfortunately from my experience in this region of the world many online stores beside the fact they lack the competent personal (their salesman never used or held a fountain pen in their lives and have no ideea what it is exactly or how it works) they are selling this writting instrumets like a person would sell vevetables at thr market.

 

I personally think there is nothing wrong with that. Consumers — including hobbyists like us, no matter how sophisticated or discerning we like to think of ourselves as knowledgeable and/or seasoned fountain pen users — are already better off for the existence of such retail channels, which put more product from all over the world within easier reach, and possibly at lower prices than if the we're-only-middle-men-moving-merchandise online stores weren't there.

 

5 hours ago, Detman101 said:

These companies hiring employees that have no interest, knowledge, emotional investment or attachment to "Fountain Pens" ruins the entire experience.

 

So, just like some buyers have the mantra of “buy the seller”, you could focus on “buying the experience” and expect to pay some part of your total expense in return for good service that contribute to a positive experience for which you have nothing to hold or show after it's over.

 

5 hours ago, Detman101 said:

The only ones that suffer are us...the end users.

 

I suspect you speak of suffering the way some Buddhists think suffering is rooted in irrational attachment to what is, and to what could be, in an impermanent and ever-changing world. If you know there's the possibility of a 100% perfect solution to your wants, but no matter what you do you could only get to a 85% compromise solution at best, and that 15% gap bothers you and makes you ‘suffer’, that's all on you, and not a case of the retailers or industry doing wrong by you in not closing the gap even if you imagine it's in their power to do so if only they had the ‘right’ priorities in commercial enterprise.

[Detman101]

1 hour ago, A Smug Dill said:

I suspect you speak of suffering the way some Buddhists think suffering is rooted in irrational attachment to what is, and to what could be, in an impermanent and ever-changing world. If you know there's the possibility of a 100% perfect solution to your wants, but no matter what you do you could only get to a 85% compromise solution at best, and that 15% gap bothers you and makes you ‘suffer’, that's all on you, and not a case of the retailers or industry doing wrong by you in not closing the gap even if you imagine it's in their power to do so if only they had the ‘right’ priorities in commercial enterprise.

Regardless of my involvement and expectations throughout the process, businesses are failing their customers by doing a lackluster job of providing quality service.
If they perform that way long enough...they won't perform any more.
Problem solved for all.
Then everyone uses ballpoints.

[TitoThePencilPimp]

8 hours ago, ginx said:

Unfortunately from my experience in this region of the world many online stores beside the fact they lack the competent personal (their salesman never used or held a fountain pen in their lives and have no ideea what it is exactly or how it works) they are selling this writting instrumets like a person would sell vevetables at thr market. I was asking for the pen to be cheked before it will be send and made it clear that if a non complying item will be send for sure  it will be followed by a return but nobody seems to care. So a fountainpen pen with s bad nib or a scratched body is send and when naturaly I ask for refound they are very noisy and tray to put the blame on me. When I have encounter this type of situations I made a habbit firstly not to use that store any more and to speak and tell my stories so others may not have to deal with similar situations. 

A defect, scratchy, scratched new pen or an used pen must not be sold. If the buyer get a bad pen must not accept it and must take measures. Because many people are accepting to be treated badly while they are paying in full the service or product the stores' and factories' behaviour will not change. 

We as customers are responsable to ensure the stores and factories are treating us fair. 

I find unacceptable that an 400 Euro brand new Pelikan M805 was not able put ink on paper after I cleaned it and inked for the first time. The customers service changed the nib but their so called "expert" maneged to scratch the nib on the half of it's face and sent to me anyway. Sent it back again and this time after 2 months of waiting came a new pen from the factory but it was even worst. After they get anoyed that I complained again for what they did they cut the comumication at all. I had to lose time and money and energy to "repair" a broken new pen. I was stupid I should have writed to Pelikan Germany or I do not know to whom but I should not let the situation like that.

1 euro second hand Chinese Rainbow 202 fountain pen bought from a second hand marked found throwed in a box not just wrote after I ink it for the first time but beets the hell of the up mentioned Pelikan. Why shell I buy in the future a Pelikan if they did whay they did. After reading on forums I saw that there are other people unsatisfied by Pelikan's QC. We must not buy until they solve their problems. "A bad deal is worst then no deal" 

If you do not mind sharing. What company did you purchase this Pelikan from? I have 27 Pelikans now, and multiple nib units and never got a bad stock nib. I may have got a nib which wrote larger than the designated size (even by Pelikan Standards). But no stinkers yet. I did have an issue with a m200 Blue Marble (the marbling was horrible). The nib wrote extremely well, so I ordered another m200 Blue for myself, and gave the one with cosmetic issues to my nephew.

 

It could have been that the company you purchased from either sold you a pen whose nib was a floor model, the company does not store or ship its pen properly ( tine issues), or maybe your expectations of Pelikan nibs was too high. Did you check to see if the nib unit was attached? It may become loose during transport. What inks did you use?

 

Please share the seller. It seems to be an issue with the seller...

[lionelc]

lucky to have a store here in australia where pelikans are sent out only after nibs are checked, like tito so far so good -  no shockers yet.

[ginx]

7 hours ago, TitoThePencilPimp said:

If you do not mind sharing. What company did you purchase this Pelikan from? I have 27 Pelikans now, and multiple nib units and never got a bad stock nib. I may have got a nib which wrote larger than the designated size (even by Pelikan Standards). But no stinkers yet. I did have an issue with a m200 Blue Marble (the marbling was horrible). The nib wrote extremely well, so I ordered another m200 Blue for myself, and gave the one with cosmetic issues to my nephew.

 

It could have been that the company you purchased from either sold you a pen whose nib was a floor model, the company does not store or ship its pen properly ( tine issues), or maybe your expectations of Pelikan nibs was too high. Did you check to see if the nib unit was attached? It may become loose during transport. What inks did you use?

 

Please share the seller. It seems to be an issue with the seller...

The first seller was https://www.bnb.ro/. Since it was their last pen and could't exchange with another one I was thinking to ask for a reninbursment but I said to solve the problem so I called the oficial distributor of Pelikan brand, Herlitz Romania. After I saw that it had a lemon of a nib, lines to tight one to another, I did not dispare because it was a situation that it could be solved quickly and easy. If so many people are happy with their products my case had to be an exception. In my first discutions everything was ok and encouraging. I saw a good intention from their part and I was happy. But I was speaking on the phone something and it was happening something else and my ping pong matches wirh Herlitz Romania started. I had to solve it quickly because I was leaving the country. I was there for a bussines but lost time and energy with a damn pen. Anyhow they sent the pen with another nib which was badly scratched and sent it back againd and after 2 months they send again the pen to a friend and the pen arrived to me after a few other months when she came here. I opened, cleaned, inked and the pen was not writing. Briliant. Again the lines problem. I wrote to them since I was not able to call anymore but no answer and finaly solved here the problem. I was looking to buy a Pelikan since 2003 and when I finaly pushed the trigger and broke my piggy bank I started to wish that I've never did it. Since I belived that I just had bad luck I bought from here an Epoch that writes very dry from https://www.hemen.com.tr/mobile/ and now it stay in it's box, and from Amazon Turkey an M800 and M1000. The M800 had the lines badly misaligned. The M1000 is so wet that the Rhodia is bleading. From https://www.dacris.net/ ofical distributor of Pilot in Romanya I bought a Custom 74. Like the M805 has the lines so presed together that the ink was not able to pass. Unfortunately was not able to send it back. 

With https://www.panelkirtasiye.com/ I hade some ping pong pen matches because of two Waterman Carene that had estetical problems with their nibs. 

The Parker pens even if I bought from a B&M store I was not allowed to test them because the seller was afraid he said that I will break them but was more afraid that I will not buy them if I was able to see how they perform and back home I found that they hade their own problems too. 

So this was my bumpy journey in the land of expensive pens. 

[inkstainedruth]

On 1/15/2021 at 10:58 AM, MoriartyR said:

I think there’s an additional point to be made here about what should be the requirement for a good online sales business. Dill’s example with Parker is a good example where their business is not currently fit to service remote sales. They provided a functioning nib, but the line width was not acceptable to a reasonable customer even though it presumably satisfied Parker’s manufacturing tolerances. So Parker failed because their business only works acceptably for customers who can test the pens in-store.

 

I had a bad experience with Parker a few years ago with "the Urban from Hell" (which was still under the extended warranty at the time).  I'm in the Eastern US and had to jump through hoops to send the pen back to them in Wisconsin, only for them to be snotty about it; when the "replacement" converter they sent me got stuck in the barrel, the chick I'd dealt with in France the first time got it with BOTH barrels (metaphorically speaking).  They were EXCEEDINGLY nice to me after that (I don't speak French, but I speak "outraged consumer with access to an internationally read pen forum" extremely well).  But the pen they sent as a replacement the second go round?  It leaked like a sieve from the collar around the nib unit no matter how many times I flushed and soaked it.  And of course the extended warranty did NOT reset with the new pen back to zero.  So that pen ended up in the trash, and I have very little good to say about modern Parkers at this point (other of course than the Vectors -- and most of mine were UK production, the reissued French-production was is okay, and I have one or two US-made ones as well -- well, I HAD two but seem to have lost one of them, which is a bummer -- it was NOS still in the blister pack when I got it, and would dearly love to get another one of that design/color).

Because five miles from Downtown Pittsburgh is NOT a "remote location".  Even if you ARE in France.  Sorry, but....

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

[slowdown]

On 1/6/2021 at 8:56 PM, TitoThePencilPimp said:

Sailor nibs are known for their high quality control and reliability. Now, some may not like the feedback that is built into a Sailor nib (that is how they are designed). I would dare say the quality control of SAILOR pens is higher than that of Pelikan. So if a pen has high percentage of q/c issues, then the Pen should not be purchased....

 

Now, why would somebody not purchase from nibs.com?

 

Most of his offerings are over priced. He relies on his tuning service for pen sales. But the same pen, the majority of times, can be purchased from another vendor at more than half off. I do not believe his tuning service is worth the extra $200++. Heck with this, you can a few custom grinds with the extra $$$ spent on nibs.com

 

Personally, I think his tuning service is a gimmick...

I’ve purchased many pens from Nibs.com, at various price points. I have shopped around first, and always found that they had the BEST price of all the vendors I checked in the USA and Canada. I have been thrilled with all my purchases from Nibs.com. I’d love to hear where you are finding those pens at less than half off.

[A Smug Dill]

16 minutes ago, slowdown said:

I have shopped around first, and always found that they had the BEST price of all the vendors I checked in the USA and Canada.

 

In the age of global online commerce, consumers in Australia, Europe and North America alike can easily buy from authorised retailers on other continents. Even though it's oddly not common practice with USA-based retailers to offer free international shipping (although Nibs.com does), I've found European and UK retailers are likely to offer it at fairly reasonable spend thresholds, and so even Canadians and Americans can enjoy free delivery (by DHL, too, which in my experience takes less than a week to be delivered) and not be limited to choosing from retailers in the USA and Canada.

 

23 minutes ago, slowdown said:

I’d love to hear where you are finding those pens at less than half off.

 

I don't know about “half off”, but Florida-based EndlessPens often offer Sailor Professional Gear Slim pens in this colourway or that for between US$92 and US$99 in their week-long sales campaigns. I got my pair of Professional Gear and Professional Gear Slim pens in the Ocean special edition from La Couronne du Comte in the Netherlands for just on €250 all up including delivery. I've ordered Sailor pens from Amazon.co.jp, and sellers on (the now defunct) Rakuten Global Market, and even on eBay and they've all arrived still factory-sealed in their plastic sleeves; I don't doubt the authenticity of the items one bit. All those channels can help you get your hands on Sailor pens more cheaply, and I've never received a Sailor gold nib that didn't write well for the nib type or width grade right out of the box (and the heat-sealed plastic sleeve), so I don't see the value of nib tuning for new Sailor pens, assuming that the buyer understands exactly what he/she is choosing from the available nib options.

[slowdown]

17 hours ago, A Smug Dill said:

 

In the age of global online commerce, consumers in Australia, Europe and North America alike can easily buy from authorised retailers on other continents. Even though it's oddly not common practice with USA-based retailers to offer free international shipping (although Nibs.com does), I've found European and UK retailers are likely to offer it at fairly reasonable spend thresholds, and so even Canadians and Americans can enjoy free delivery (by DHL, too, which in my experience takes less than a week to be delivered) and not be limited to choosing from retailers in the USA and Canada.

 

 

I don't know about “half off”, but Florida-based EndlessPens often offer Sailor Professional Gear Slim pens in this colourway or that for between US$92 and US$99 in their week-long sales campaigns. I got my pair of Professional Gear and Professional Gear Slim pens in the Ocean special edition from La Couronne du Comte in the Netherlands for just on €250 all up including delivery. I've ordered Sailor pens from Amazon.co.jp, and sellers on (the now defunct) Rakuten Global Market, and even on eBay and they've all arrived still factory-sealed in their plastic sleeves; I don't doubt the authenticity of the items one bit. All those channels can help you get your hands on Sailor pens more cheaply, and I've never received a Sailor gold nib that didn't write well for the nib type or width grade right out of the box (and the heat-sealed plastic sleeve), so I don't see the value of nib tuning for new Sailor pens, assuming that the buyer understands exactly what he/she is choosing from the available nib options.

Thank you for all your excellent advice! It’s true that I’m hesitant to shop online outside of North America. I will spend some time looking at some of these sites!

Nicole