What's wrong with Waterman?

[Jerome Tarshis]

On 1/21/2021 at 10:51 AM, sandy101 said:

The truth is that Waterman & Parker probably outsell most other fountain pen brands. 

(snip)

The Carene/Sonnet/whatever make nice looking pens that people buy as gifts for their son/daughter/nephew/neice who has graduated or is off to University. The folk who buy them remember that they had a nice Parker/Waterman/Cross when they graduated or got that promotion. They want something like what they had 20 years ago - and nothing too oiutlandish - which is why the brands are so conservative. Their target market is probably an older generation buying gifts for a younger generation. 

 

Exactly this. To which I would add that some of the purchasers are younger people for whom it is time to assimilate themselves to the world of older people.

 

FPN represents a small hobbyist market that doesn't add up to many units. When it comes to a large company deciding what to manufacture, victory still goes to the large battalions. As perhaps it should. At least it's an understandable idea, and as I remember business meetings from my long-ago youth, understandability counts for something.

[ivyman]

Historically, Waterman had made great pens. Not any more. I am glad I have acquired in my collection some of their best creations such as #7 pink nib (wet noodle) pens, Patrician (jade green, moss agate and turquoise). I practice fountain pen writing with them daily and am very happy with them. Don't think I will acquire Waterman pens any more going forward because I feel there are none worth getting from them. 

 

All I am looking forward now is to find myself a Montblanc L139 with long window and a flexible OBB nib.

I know it is very difficult to find one, but it is worth the chase.

 

 

[thx1138]

I think that the Carene is a superb pen. Every one I have bought, new or used, works perfectly.  The nibs are wonderful and smooth and the finishes are beautiful. 

The marine green, closely followed by the amber, are two of the most attractive laque finishes i have seen.

Carenes do not dry out or seem to have any other bad habits (at least my half a dozen or so FP's).

[TSherbs]

8 hours ago, thx1138 said:

I think that the Carene is a superb pen. Every one I have bought, new or used, works perfectly.  The nibs are wonderful and smooth and the finishes are beautiful. 

The marine green, closely followed by the amber, are two of the most attractive laque finishes i have seen.

Carenes do not dry out or seem to have any other bad habits (at least my half a dozen or so FP's).

gah!

 

I don't need more enticement....

[agentbug]

the story that I've got from local store, it was waterman is initially pointed a little bit higher than parker in Newell Rubbermaid group, and it's why parker has moved into waterman's factory in st herblain.

 

Then, the group decided to re-image both brands, it's why we saw parker has had renew their image. So Newell planned to re-image waterman just after parker. but it seems delay forever.

 

Now parker represent more than 65% of waterman's factory's production.

 

The reason that waterman stopped exception original line, it because waterman makes the nib for cartier Roadster as well. sadly cartier stopped the fountain pen. 

 

and the retail of waterman told me, waterman's parts are made in poland assembled in France.

 

[Doug C]

The Serenité, the Edson, Carene and a reasonably priced entry level model (yet to be designed). keep them all below $800 and you have a company that would take the pen world by storm.

It has been said before, the corporation doesn't care enough about one of its subsidiaries.

[Mech-for-i]

To be honest, I am not that thrilled with the Edson, a good pen in use but like some of the great names, an over engineering disaster ( especially for repair techs ) , can probably be peer to the Sheaffer Snorkol , the  Carène is a much better replacement and a great pen with very pleasing Aesthetic. But after these two , really there is nothing that the name really brings .. this is pretty much the same with most European / US brands , be it Parker or Cross, Sheaffer or Waterman ; which one must contrast wit Asian names like the Japanese / Chinese who continue to innovate and put innovation and effort into making not just the top end models , but all the way down to workhorse and entry level models. As the world rediscover writing , the market is there but sadly these names just had little to offer.

 

They might be selling ( as a business ) but AFAIK , probably a lot more are buying Lamy Safari , Pilot 74, Platinum Preppy , and Jinhao(s) and to be fair, and honest , those write decent, write well, and in most cases better a pen ( for writing & writing ergonomics ) than trying to wrestle with a heavy Waterman or Parker or Sheaffer or Cross ( pretty much almost all of them metal )

 

And yet they do not had the prestige / fashion appeal as a Montblanc or Pelikan, or the multitude of Italian brands ; so they are kind of stuck in an awkward position. If you want the name to revive and be more receptive to younger, new customers, you had to offer something fresh, something new, and something cheerful , stylish, fashionable and your own. We are witnessing this in the names like Lamy ( with Safari as introduction to the brand and be tie in to their Bauhaus styling roster ) , or the Japanese big 3 , and even many Chinese brands that now start to rise or re-emerge. Branding surely require a lot more than just marketing and a single top end product.

[Mech-for-i]

hitting wrong button , ignore this one

 

[ParkerBeta]

I had a Waterman Preface that put me off Waterman pens for a decade. Thin cheap-feeling lacquered metal body. So the next Waterman I bought was a Charleston (plastic body, screw cap, quite unlike the other Waterman pens in its price class), but that was terribly unengaging too. I even bought an Exception and it failed to do anything for me.

Finally, I struck gold with a Waterman Expert Mk I, then going from strength to strength, two Perspectives, then a Man 100 Opera followed by a Patrician in Coral Red. Each one better than the preceding one, although I cannot choose between the Opera and the Patrician.

 

In short, the only modern Waterman I like is the Perspective. I think the Man 100 is one of the three best pens made in the last 40 years by anyone, ranking right up there with the Duofold Centennial and the M800. Why Waterman discontinued its manufacture is inexplicable to me. Waterman’s stablemate Parker has continued to keep the Duofold fresh, so why did Waterman kill off the Man 100?

[alexwi]

16 hours ago, ParkerBeta said:

the only modern Waterman I like is the Perspective

I was drooling over the Perspective until I got to see it in person and the huge (similar to the Phileas) nib turned me off as soon as I had it in my hand.

 

Other than that, it's a beautiful pen.

 

alex

[jchch1950]

The objective of any company is to make money for the shareholders. It my opinion Waterman managers are trying to do that, so they focus on the pens that increase most  the profits , not those pens that pen collectors want but that are not as profitable . Waterman manufactures some really good working pens for students , office use and general writing. Their new line of Emblem pens are very good writers but there is nothing special in the design. Maybe when it will be more demand for fountain pens new and more innovative models will be offer.

[Ste_S]

I kinda think Waterman (and Parker) aren't aimed at the type of people who post on here. They're aimed at people purchasing their first fountain pen, mostly from a B&M shop. Hence flashey looking finishes that feel cheap when in hand. Nib quality doesn't matter, as well, then pen has already been purchased.

[Misfit]

I would have agreed with most posts. Waterman does seem conservative. 
 

But then, when my brother came to visit in June, we went to The Pen Place. He ended up buying a Waterman Expert in dark red. I was amazed at how gorgeous that pen is. I have one heading my way that I ordered from Cult Pens. 
 

They certainly could innovate more. I’d like more nib choices. And the names of the inks should go back to the names they had before they changed the names to sound like aromatherapy. 

[Misfit]

Here is my dark red Waterman Expert III.

 

[Inkyways]

I have got two waterman  Phileas and they are already vintage.

They write fine just as the other modern  pens do. Quite affordable too but I don't think these line of pen could offer you more than any other pen brands do.

If you want a the best waterman, you must try the antique and very older pens that comes from the golden- era of waterman.

It is true about any other well known brands of pens too. 

[pilotheinrich]

On 7/19/2021 at 6:11 AM, Misfit said:

I would have agreed with most posts. Waterman does seem conservative. 
 

But then, when my brother came to visit in June, we went to The Pen Place. He ended up buying a Waterman Expert in dark red. I was amazed at how gorgeous that pen is. I have one heading my way that I ordered from Cult Pens. 
 

They certainly could innovate more. I’d like more nib choices. And the names of the inks should go back to the names they had before they changed the names to sound like aromatherapy. 

"And the names of the inks should go back to the names they had before they changed the names to sound like aromatherapy.'

 

HEAR HEAR!  Waterman "Serenity" will always be Florida Blue to me, just as the "Willis Tower" will always be the Sears Tower to me. 

[pilotheinrich]

On 7/28/2021 at 11:30 AM, Inkyways said:

I have got two waterman  Phileas and they are already vintage.

They write fine just as the other modern  pens do. Quite affordable too but I don't think these line of pen could offer you more than any other pen brands do.

If you want a the best waterman, you must try the antique and very older pens that comes from the golden- era of waterman.

It is true about any other well known brands of pens too. 

 

Agree on vintage (though I love the current Expert). I just came by a Waterman Commando and it has become instantly one of my favorite pens. Such a history. Such a transitional art deco to modern look. Such a smooth, wet writer. And it sits and sits and sits, then it starts, smooth and wet, right after being uncapped. 

[Misfit]

And sometimes innovation amounts to Visconti making pens named Homo Sapiens. Those new versions will never match the original made with basaltic lava. How about a new name?  

[pilotheinrich]

8 minutes ago, Misfit said:

And sometimes innovation amounts to Visconti making pens named Homo Sapiens. Those new versions will never match the original made with basaltic lava. How about a new name?  

Well,  it is kinda like seeing all the variations of Kraft Macaroni and Cheese, or Oreos, or Colas  . . . .. Success breeds repetition. 

[Lee Dawson]

I suspect many things are the problem, not just one. 

1. Watermans, Parker, Sheaffer, Esterbrrok, etc are no longer owned by their creator or the creator's family that cared. Most have been bought out several times by other companies and are now just a line for bean counters worried about shareholder returns to worry about. 

 

2. People don't use fountain pens much anymore. I love them since I rediscovered my old high school Parker Vector. Now have Snorkels, Parker 51s, a Watermans 513 with a stub nib, and a Watermans Phileas. ( One of my favorites even if it isn't the best. It just is a great workhorse.) I have been amazed at how even older people do not know how to even hold a fountain pen to write with it.