Sailor Naginata Togi vs Sailor Zoom

[aimi]

While FPN was down I acquired a Sailor Zoom nib and despite my fondness for vintage flex and for XXF nibs, I find myself extremely pleased with the pencil-like feedback and even the broadness.

 

I partly purchased this pen knowing the fat blob of tipping might come in use later. I once tried a Naginata Togi MF briefly and really enjoyed it, but after some research as soon as I realized FPN was back up, there are many comment stating these nibs are actually very similar.

 

A lot of sources seem to be from a while ago, possibly when Zoom nibs were not easily accessible in the west? Could anyone in 2020 elaborate on the differences between these two nibs and if it’s worth to even consider a grind?

Thank you for your time, and I apologize in advance for the longwinded-ness- I was just super excited to see the forum back up. 

[A Smug Dill]

 I'd love to share your enthusiasm for the fineness/broadness of the Sailor Zoom nib (when ‘reverse-writing’?), but I don't love mine for it. Nor do I my Sailor Naginata Concord nib, really.

 

Nevertheless, I have ordered another Sailor Professional Gear Slim with a Zoom nib — from a ‘Western’ source, which is an online retailer based in Florida — to pad an order so as to qualify for ‘free’ international shipping, and it's in transit right now on its way to me in Australia, having bought in in Black Friday sales.

 

You can also get a lot of different line widths out of a Sailor ‘medium-sized’ 14K gold H-M nib:

https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/topic/348419-sailor-nib-sweet-spot/?do=findComment&comment=4237480

 

I don't know how any of them will fare if you want to get different line widths for downstrokes and cross-strokes without varying the incident angle between nib and page, though.

 

[aimi]

Thank you, Smug, for the links! I’ve read your comments, but I’ll go through the rest of the threads shortly.

Truthfully I didn’t expect any line variation while writing English- I fully expected to use the Zoom as a B or BB nib because writing at different angles seems to be rather uncomfortable even when done slowly and deliberately. My Zoom somehow doesn’t reverse write- or at least it was so dry nothing came out when I tried (I may try again). I was surprised because my Pilot PO reverse writes spectacularly, and I adore that nib. I am rather poor at writing xiaokai Chinese, but I was hoping having this nib would force me to improve my awful writing since it seems like the line variation is for Japanese (and so I was hoping by extension for Chinese as well since I disliked the fude I owned).

 

Let me know if you change your mind when you receive your new Zoom nib or have a different opinion on it after!

 

Hopefully someone can also chime in on if there’s any sensory changes while using the NT and Z. 

[A Smug Dill]

Alas, I don't have a Naginata Togi nib myself, or a Aurora Goccia nib that has the same design goal, because the idea of broader cross-strokes than downstrokes seem counter-productive to writing hanzi, at least in kaishu; and especially since the NT nibs were no longer offered in width grades below MF, and the Goccia EF's expected line widths are possibly too broad for my requirements ("CE at 30°: horizontal stroke = 0.61mm, vertical stroke = 0.47mm; CE at 90°: horizontal stroke = 0.31mm, vertical stroke = 0.32mm", according to Nibsmith.com's Aurora product listings).

 

If you have a cheap Sailor Fude de Mannen pen (with or without clip) with a steel nib, they truly suck out-of-the-box, and are among the worse fountain pens I've used. I can't comment on the Naginata Fude de Mannen nib, which is more than an order of magnitude more expensive, although I'd imagine they're much better quality and more usable like the Naginata Concord. Nevertheless, I now use one of the cheap Sailor FdM pens as my main ink review writing instrument. @AmandaW put one into the Aussie FPN pass-around box for surplus pens and inks, because she didn't like hers out-of-the-box; I had a look and saw that it was bent at the wrong angle, and given it was unwanted, I didn't think it would be too much of a risk to try to ‘fix’ it ham-fistedly myself. She asked me to keep the pen, after I got it writing just OK, so I thought I'd put it to good use; but, to make it more usable, I had to regrind the nib's tipping-less tip so that it would reverse-write without shredding paper, and also ground down (to shorten) the front of the feed, because I know from experience it gets in the way when writing broad lines with the nib at a shallow angle.

 

If you want to get a cheap Fude nib that's usable, I'd recommend the bent nibs on HongDian pens (starting from less than US$7, for the model 1850, on AliExpress).

[aimi]

Good to know about the Sailor Fude de Mannen, and your writing is beautiful. The fude I had was a Hero fude (not sure what model- my uncle in China gave it to me), and I could never really get used to it so I passed it to my mum, who I hope will enjoy it more.

[TitoThePencilPimp]

I recently acquired a sailor 1911 standard with 21k zoom nib. I transplanted the nib onto a Sailor Koshu (red), and put the medium on the standard. Anyways, its very easy to write with at different angles. Nib is smooth. At my regular angle, I get a pelikan medium, but with more crisp letters. I think this is the Sailor Feedback which allows well defined letters for someone with poor handwriting. When writing  almost perpendicular to the plane of the paper,  I get about a f to mf (Sailor Size). reverse writing is a scratchy, but it is comparable to a ef sailor line. I think the reverse side of the nib will smoothen out with more use. I was going to smooth it myself, but I think I will get a double custom grind on the nib, so don't want to play with the nib.

 

 

I am happy with my purchase. It is mainly used for note taking. Now I can write definitions/lemmas/corollaries in bold, then explanations or worked examples in fine.

[25_15_3]

Curious about the same thing. I've never used a Zoom nib but have tried a few Naginata-togi nibs over the years. I did recently cave and purchase a Zoom nib (albeit of the older generation). I'll chime in my thoughts on the two compared when the pen arrives.

[aimi]

15 hours ago, 25_15_3 said:

Curious about the same thing. I've never used a Zoom nib but have tried a few Naginata-togi nibs over the years. I did recently cave and purchase a Zoom nib (albeit of the older generation). I'll chime in my thoughts on the two compared when the pen arrives.

That would be great Looking forward to hearing your thoughts!

 

16 hours ago, TitoThePencilPimp said:

I am happy with my purchase. It is mainly used for note taking. Now I can write definitions/lemmas/corollaries in bold, then explanations or worked examples in fine.

I'm glad you like your purchase! It seems like you're getting the full range of use out of your Zoom nib.

[sakshi__reddy]

I have a Pro Gear Slim Zoom and a 1911 standard with one of the longer Naginata Togi nibs (probably ground by Nagahara Sr. I believe the nib profile changed once Nagahara Jr took over, with the tine length reducing. This is not confirmed and is based entirely on internet photos). 

 

The two writing experiences could not be more different. The Naginata is almost like a vintage nib in the feel it offers while writing. It's bouncy and has a slight feedback with subtle line variation. Vertical strokes are definitely thinner and it makes the writing look and feel unique. It's also a wetter writer than the Zoom is. It really does feel a little like wielding a sword to write with. I cannot really express how much I adore the Naginata, picking it up and uncapping it just gives me a thrill of pleasure. 

 

The Zoom is mostly a fat nib, which is very enjoyable in its own right. It has the signature Sailor pencil-like feedback, but zero line variation. 

 

It could be that the differences I see are because the Zoom is the smaller 14k nib, while the Naginata is the 21k nib. At any rate, I would say that they are definitely very different writing instruments, at least for me. If asked to choose one, my Naginata would win every time. I would also say that if you have the chance to get the Zoom ground down by someone who knows what they are doing, go for it! 

[aimi]

20 hours ago, sakshi__reddy said:

I have a Pro Gear Slim Zoom and a 1911 standard with one of the longer Naginata Togi nibs (probably ground by Nagahara Sr. I believe the nib profile changed once Nagahara Jr took over, with the tine length reducing. This is not confirmed and is based entirely on internet photos). 

 

The two writing experiences could not be more different. The Naginata is almost like a vintage nib in the feel it offers while writing. It's bouncy and has a slight feedback with subtle line variation. Vertical strokes are definitely thinner and it makes the writing look and feel unique. It's also a wetter writer than the Zoom is. It really does feel a little like wielding a sword to write with. I cannot really express how much I adore the Naginata, picking it up and uncapping it just gives me a thrill of pleasure. 

 

The Zoom is mostly a fat nib, which is very enjoyable in its own right. It has the signature Sailor pencil-like feedback, but zero line variation. 

 

It could be that the differences I see are because the Zoom is the smaller 14k nib, while the Naginata is the 21k nib. At any rate, I would say that they are definitely very different writing instruments, at least for me. If asked to choose one, my Naginata would win every time. I would also say that if you have the chance to get the Zoom ground down by someone who knows what they are doing, go for it! 

 
Thank you so much for your informative response! I honestly thought I was gonna be okay with a Zoom, but after reading this the Naginata Togi seems truly unique.

 

So far I’m happy with my fat Zoom nib (it seems like it has some shape to its tip compared to say, modern Pelikan), and I absolutely ADORE the feedback. I was thinking of sending it to Mike Masuyama if I got a custom grind because I’ve had really good experiences with him before, and I heard he used to work for Sailor so maybe he could keep some of that feedback. Again, thanks so much for your comment. I’ll really have to deliberate a bit more!

[TitoThePencilPimp]

46 minutes ago, aimi said:

 
Thank you so much for your informative response! I honestly thought I was gonna be okay with a Zoom, but after reading this the Naginata Togi seems truly unique.

 

So far I’m happy with my fat Zoom nib (it seems like it has some shape to its tip compared to say, modern Pelikan), and I absolutely ADORE the feedback. I was thinking of sending it to Mike Masuyama if I got a custom grind because I’ve had really good experiences with him before, and I heard he used to work for Sailor so maybe he could keep some of that feedback. Again, thanks so much for your comment. I’ll really have to deliberate a bit more!

He would be the best person for the job. Have you considered getting two different grinds on the zoom?

[aimi]

15 hours ago, TitoThePencilPimp said:

He would be the best person for the job. Have you considered getting two different grinds on the zoom?

Do you mean like a reverse grind for upside down writing? If so, I did not, but I’m open to suggestions ! Reverse writing is one of my favourite things on my PO nib. 

[sakshi__reddy]

On 12/9/2020 at 9:30 AM, aimi said:

 
Thank you so much for your informative response! I honestly thought I was gonna be okay with a Zoom, but after reading this the Naginata Togi seems truly unique.

 

So far I’m happy with my fat Zoom nib (it seems like it has some shape to its tip compared to say, modern Pelikan), and I absolutely ADORE the feedback. I was thinking of sending it to Mike Masuyama if I got a custom grind because I’ve had really good experiences with him before, and I heard he used to work for Sailor so maybe he could keep some of that feedback. Again, thanks so much for your comment. I’ll really have to deliberate a bit more!

My pleasure! Mike Masuyama should be a good choice. I've used a Sailor M that he ground into a stub, and that definitely retained the feedback. 

[zaddick]

The Naginata Togi and Zoom grinds are quite different. I think of it like carving a statue from stone - the Zoom is the rough cut with the basic shape and can be quite impactful but the Togi is the final, polished result that is far more expressive.

 

I found a few shots in my Instagram feed to illustrate my point. Hopefully they load from my phone. Togi on top and Zoom on bottom.

[zaddick]

I like Mike's work, and he can make a nice Togi nib, but you need to start with enough tipping for good results. A Zoom or Platinum C nib would be a good starting point. Below is a Togi grind he did for me on an Oldwin pen with an M nib.

[zaddick]

Tried to zoom a bit more on Mike's work...

[A Smug Dill]

1 hour ago, zaddick said:

I think of it like carving a statue from stone - the Zoom is the rough cut with the basic shape and can be quite impactful but the Togi is the final, polished result

 

I really, really like that metaphor! Thank you. 😀

[aimi]

10 hours ago, zaddick said:

Tried to zoom a bit more on Mike's work...

[picture]

 

The pictures you show do seem more chiselled for the Naginata Togi. How would you describe the writing sensation between the two? Thank you for your input & I'm going to check out your IG now!

[zaddick]

It has been a while since I had a zoom nib. I remember it being fairly wet for a Sailor nib. Line variation in Western writing was more difficult. The tipping was like a slightly rounded triangle with a fairly wise base, like the side of a pyramid. 

 

The Togi surface is more like the bottom third of a banana. It is a far more gradual curve and starts narrower but does not get as wide. For me the MF width is best at showing off line variation in Western writing whereas the B is like European B or BB compared to a typical narrowish Sailor B. With MF I can tell the difference between writing line width at say 80, 50, and 30 degrees much more so than a Zoom, which is already a fair bit broader.

 

I prefer the Togi nibs.

 

I tried to get a zoomed in photo to show the shape better. This is one of the older Togi nibs when the elder Nagahara was running the specialty nibs group.

 

[25_15_3]

Here's some pics I took comparing the tipping shape: https://imgur.com/a/Ip9ByRe. The Zoom nib is from the older generation of nibs (monotone 1911L 14k) and the NM is from last years Sailor KOP Blue Wave. Not the fairest comparison but should suffice as a general viewpoint...

 

The Zoom is definitely smoother of the two (as in less feedback). The Zoom doesn't have any variation between the cross and vertical strokes unlike the NM which has a slight architect grind.