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Script Vs Cursive


Mysterious Mose

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What is the relation between "script" and "cursive"?

 

A long, long time ago, I learned how to write in script. That must have been the in first few grades in Elementary School. 65 or so years later, I still write in script.

 

I see a lot of discussion in the fountain pen enthusiasts community about "cursive" writing and see very little discussion about "script." Are they the same? I've read somewhere that in cursive writing, you don't lift the pen between letters. Is that the only difference?

 

As many members of the board do, I'd like to improve my handwriting. However, I'm not yet ready to take on an entirely different way of writing, such as Spencer..

 

One step that might help is using lined or dot-grid paper instead of blank paper.

 

Can you recommend a book for re-learning the basics of script?

Dan Kalish

 

Fountain Pens: Pelikan Souveran M805, Pelikan Petrol-Marble M205, Santini Libra Cumberland, Waterman Expert II, Waterman Phileas, Waterman Kultur, Stipula Splash, Sheaffer Sagaris, Sheaffer Prelude, Osmiroid 65

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As far as I understand it cursive is technically print and script is joined up writing but just to confuse matters today we tend to use the word cursive to mean joined up writing.

 

I wouldn't shy away from learning Spencerian. It's surprisingly simple, only being made up of eight types of strokes, so once you master the strokes it becomes very enjoyable. Copperplate is much harder to master.

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I see a lot of discussion in the fountain pen enthusiasts community about "cursive" writing and see very little discussion about "script." Are they the same?

Yes, and no. People mean what they (individually) mean, even when they're misusing words.

 

Script fundamentally means a distinct style of lettering. Some people use "script" as a shorthand (or misnomer) for some particular cursive handwriting script (and there are many such scripts), but they don't get to control the narrative of what "script" means in calligraphy; it isn't inherently, or by definition, or exclusively cursive.

 

See https://www.iampeth.com/lesson/business-handwriting/styles-script

 

I've read somewhere that in cursive writing, you don't lift the pen between letters. Is that the only difference?

A cursive script can be written so that the letters of the alphabet are joined in their presentation, but each stroke (and it may take multiple strokes of the pen to write — or draw — the minuscule 'a') is made distinctly. Cursive handwriting, as an activity, would be inclined towards using continuous strokes of the pen to form a single sequence of letters; but that does not dictate which script is used.

I endeavour to be frank and truthful in what I write, show or otherwise present, when I relate my first-hand experiences that are not independently verifiable; and link to third-party content where I can, when I make a claim or refute a statement of fact in a thread. If there is something you can verify for yourself, I entreat you to do so, and judge for yourself what is right, correct for valid. I may be wrong, and my position or say-so is no more authoritative and carries no more weight than anyone else's here.

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What is the relation between "script" and "cursive"?

 

A long, long time ago, I learned how to write in script. That must have been the in first few grades in Elementary School. 65 or so years later, I still write in script.

 

I see a lot of discussion in the fountain pen enthusiasts community about "cursive" writing and see very little discussion about "script." Are they the same? I've read somewhere that in cursive writing, you don't lift the pen between letters. Is that the only difference?

 

As many members of the board do, I'd like to improve my handwriting. However, I'm not yet ready to take on an entirely different way of writing, such as Spencer..

 

One step that might help is using lined or dot-grid paper instead of blank paper.

 

Can you recommend a book for re-learning the basics of script?

If you don’t want to have to re-learn a new script/cursive from scratch, you will need to know/find out the name of the ‘writing system’/‘script’ that was taught by your Elementary School when you were a pupil, and then try to look for copies of the books that were (are still?) used to teach it.

 

Alternatively, if you would like to learn a ‘handwriting system’ that is the same for ‘printing’, cursive, and italic handwriting, I’ve seen a good few mentions on here of ‘Write Now’ by Getty & Dubay.

It teaches the ‘script’ that the authors have created to be easy to learn, and the book includes practice sheets etc

 

Getty & Dubay’s own website (which is one of the places that sells their books) can be found here.

 

Good luck :thumbup:

Edited by Mercian

Foul in clear conditions, but handsome in the fog.

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Basically, as I (mis)understand it:

 

a ) Formally

 

Script: any specific style of writing, so you may have "cursive" script, "italic" script, "copperplate" script...

 

Cursive: a writing style adapted for speed, which, considering that most people learn a formal script, then develop a "cursive" version to write it faster, then that version becomes the new formal script of next generation, which people learn and develop a new faster, "cursive" version... practically applies to any script or writing style designed for "casual" handwriting in general, with the cursive of one generation becoming the formal of next. Cursive actually should be considered the opposite of "formal" or calligraphic writing (i.e. informal, practical writing).

 

b ) Informally

 

Script: to many people refers to Copperplate or a derivative style (Engrosser's, Spencerian, Palmer...), and thus, often has joint letters, and is written with a pointed (maybe flexible if you aim for calligraphic quality) pen (though it originally was written with a flat tip pen).

 

Cursive: to many people, Italic, which initially had separate letters, but soon developed ligatures and letter-joining and hence can be written with joint letters, typically written with a flat-tipped (italic/stub) pen, and which since it is the basis for Copperplate and has been influenced by it, did end up evolving to look much alike.

 

 

So, basically, any of the two terms may refer to almost any writing. Informally, Script may be more often associated with "Copperplate/Engrosser's" styles and derivatives, Cursive may be more often associated to Italic and derivatives, but given the large cross-breeding of styles, any of them may mean anything in the end when used informally as well.

 

Edited for typos and minor corrections.

 

Further edited to add:

 

And please, do also note that this appreciation may also be heavily influenced by cultural factors. Script and Cursive may be informally used to refer to either Italic-derived or Copperplate-derived hands depending on the cultural legacy of the speaker. I understand that in the States, Cursive may also be a synonym of Copperplate-derived.

Edited by txomsy
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Mercian: "Alternatively, if you would like to learn a ‘handwriting system’ that is the same for ‘printing’, cursive, and italic handwriting, I’ve seen a good few mentions on here of ‘Write Now’ by Getty & Dubay.
It teaches the ‘script’ that the authors have created to be easy to learn, and the book includes practice sheets etc"

 

Their system seems to be based on italic. ??? Admittedly, my writing often fluctuates between printing and what I call script.

 

Italic, cursive, copperplate, Spencerian, Engrosser's, Palmer, ... .

 

I want a style that is fluid, easy to write, legible and uses an F or M nib. Way back in high school, my handwriting was atrocious. Over the years, it's improved, mostly by writing bigger and slower. I've noticed that using lined paper or dot-grid paper helps. I'll try to get an image of my writing.

Dan Kalish

 

Fountain Pens: Pelikan Souveran M805, Pelikan Petrol-Marble M205, Santini Libra Cumberland, Waterman Expert II, Waterman Phileas, Waterman Kultur, Stipula Splash, Sheaffer Sagaris, Sheaffer Prelude, Osmiroid 65

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Italic, cursive, copperplate, Spencerian, Engrosser's, Palmer, ... .

 

I'd like samples of writing in each of these styles. If you could summarize them, that would be good, also.

Dan Kalish

 

Fountain Pens: Pelikan Souveran M805, Pelikan Petrol-Marble M205, Santini Libra Cumberland, Waterman Expert II, Waterman Phileas, Waterman Kultur, Stipula Splash, Sheaffer Sagaris, Sheaffer Prelude, Osmiroid 65

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That's a toughie. As I mentioned, nomenclature gets blurry when one speaks of these hands. I think it is better to think of families of handwriting.

 

For instance, some make a distinction between English Roundhand, Copperplate, Engrosser's and Roundhand, while others don't or use them interchangeably, inconsistently or in different ways to refer to different letter shapes. Italic, as well is rather a family of hands. Anyway, there are many sources to see them (and learn them) on the Internet, for instance

 

https://www.iampeth.com/lesson/script-copperplate-style-engrosser%E2%80%99s-script

 

http://operina,com

 

http://pennavolans.com

 

The IAMPETH page, for example, mentions that originally, what today are considered pointed pen scripts were written with flat edge pens. Flex pens were developed to simulate engravers' efforts to incompletely simulate the aspect of "actual" flat pen scripts.

 

To give you a more confusing sample, this book in the Internet Archive covers various hands, from the English hand (evolution of Roundhand/Copperplate) to a vertically slanted round hand and italian hand, dated 1929 gets to show how the different hands evolved and how they converged.

 

Edit:

 

Sorry, forgot the link

 

https://archive.org/details/modelli_di_caligrahia

 

Note that the italian is done with a flat edge nib but has evolved from italic chancelleresca to look similar to English script

Edited by txomsy
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sounds complex and variable depending on your origin...

 

where I live, the everyday meaning of script and cursive, also as used by schools to distinguish and teach the two different types of writing means essentially this (whether the definition is formally correct or not)

(sorry for the ugly photo but just to get the point across)

fpn_1603827853__scipt_and_cursive.jpg

 

most children today are unable to write cursive, because it is no longer mandatory to learn it at school and script is accepted as an alternative.

When I was young, cursive (as intended in the above example) was compulsory, and any form of script (as intended in the above example) was not allowed at school.

 

Cursive was to be written obligatorily on ruled paper, and the size of ruling depended on the class you were in.

Non ruled paper was not admitted at school for any form of writing.

(Maths was compulsory on squared paper, btw).

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That's a toughie. As I mentioned, nomenclature gets blurry when one speaks of these hands. I think it is better to think of families of handwriting.

 

For instance, some make a distinction between English Roundhand, Copperplate, Engrosser's and Roundhand, while others don't or use them interchangeably, inconsistently or in different ways to refer to different letter shapes. Italic, as well is rather a family of hands. Anyway, there are many sources to see them (and learn them) on the Internet, for instance

 

https://www.iampeth.com/lesson/script-copperplate-style-engrosser%E2%80%99s-script

 

http://operina,com

 

http://pennavolans.com

 

The IAMPETH page, for example, mentions that originally, what today are considered pointed pen scripts were written with flat edge pens. Flex pens were developed to simulate engravers' efforts to incompletely simulate the aspect of "actual" flat pen scripts.

 

To give you a more confusing sample, this book in the Internet Archive covers various hands, from the English hand (evolution of Roundhand/Copperplate) to a vertically slanted round hand and italian hand, dated 1929 gets to show how the different hands evolved and how they converged.

 

Edit:

 

Sorry, forgot the link

 

https://archive.org/details/modelli_di_caligrahia

 

Note that the italian is done with a flat edge nib but has evolved from italic chancelleresca to look similar to English script

Wow! This should keep me busy for a while.

 

Engrosser's script is out because I want to use nibs that write the same width regardless of direction. Copperplate - English Round Hand has too many flourishes.

 

I want to write so as to express my ideas. I don't want to spend a lot of time embellishing the letters. That's calligraphy, which I'm not interested in now. I want to focus on the letters.

Dan Kalish

 

Fountain Pens: Pelikan Souveran M805, Pelikan Petrol-Marble M205, Santini Libra Cumberland, Waterman Expert II, Waterman Phileas, Waterman Kultur, Stipula Splash, Sheaffer Sagaris, Sheaffer Prelude, Osmiroid 65

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sounds complex and variable depending on your origin...

 

where I live, the everyday meaning of script and cursive, also as used by schools to distinguish and teach the two different types of writing means essentially this (whether the definition is formally correct or not)

(sorry for the ugly photo but just to get the point across)

 

My use of "script" and "cursive" is different. What you call "script" I call "print." What you call "cursive" I call script. :lol:

Dan Kalish

 

Fountain Pens: Pelikan Souveran M805, Pelikan Petrol-Marble M205, Santini Libra Cumberland, Waterman Expert II, Waterman Phileas, Waterman Kultur, Stipula Splash, Sheaffer Sagaris, Sheaffer Prelude, Osmiroid 65

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I want to write so others and myself can read what I wrote....lol!

"Respect science, respect nature, respect all people (s),"

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And what you call "script" is what I'd call "print".

 

To me, at least, "script" refers to a style/shape of letters being used -- sort of the handwritten equivalent to a computer "font" (family). The Getty-Dubay system is an italic "script" with both "print" and "cursive" variations. Individual letters are the same, the difference is the rules for moving from one letter to the next; that is, "print" is all disjoint letters, "cursive" has some defined joins (though some letter pairs have no joins).

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My use of "script" and "cursive" is different. What you call "script" I call "print." What you call "cursive" I call script. :lol:

:lol: That is why I said it probably depends... (and may be far from the formal definition)

 

in Italy the equivalent word to print is STAMPATELLO which however means capitals letters ... :wacko:

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And what you call "script" is what I'd call "print".

 

To me, at least, "script" refers to a style/shape of letters being used -- sort of the handwritten equivalent to a computer "font" (family). The Getty-Dubay system is an italic "script" with both "print" and "cursive" variations. Individual letters are the same, the difference is the rules for moving from one letter to the next; that is, "print" is all disjoint letters, "cursive" has some defined joins (though some letter pairs have no joins).

what you say, I do understand, as clearly reading FPN I am aware of the most widely used meanings,

do understand the fact that a script is a type of writing (font)

and that we here are probably using the script definition incorrectly, vs formal meaning, (meaning print, separate letters) vs cursive (joint letters).

That happens sometimes in non-English speaking countries, when a word comes in use with an not exactly corresponding meaning to the original English meaning...

 

this below is perhaps the most widely used "script" in Italy (by correct definition :) )

it's cursive, it's called Corsivo Italiano (or also often Corsivo Tondo)

and is possibly a type of Roundhand? typically letters are not slanted

fpn_1603835492__corsivo_italiano.jpg

 

cursive with slanted letters is called Corsivo Inglese (English cursive)... :)

Edited by sansenri
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what you say, I do understand, as clearly reading FPN I am aware of the most widely used meanings,

do understand the fact that a script is a type of writing (font)

and that we here are probably using the script definition incorrectly, vs formal meaning, (meaning print, separate letters) vs cursive (joint letters).

That happens sometimes in non-English speaking countries, when a word comes in use with an not exactly corresponding meaning to the original English meaning...

 

this below is perhaps the most widely used "script" in Italy (by correct definition :) )

it's cursive, it's called Corsivo Italiano (or also often Corsivo Tondo)

and is possibly a type of Roundhand? typically letters are not slanted

fpn_1603835492__corsivo_italiano.jpg

 

cursive with slanted letters is called Corsivo Inglese (English cursive)... :)

What about the letters j, k, w, x and y?

Dan Kalish

 

Fountain Pens: Pelikan Souveran M805, Pelikan Petrol-Marble M205, Santini Libra Cumberland, Waterman Expert II, Waterman Phileas, Waterman Kultur, Stipula Splash, Sheaffer Sagaris, Sheaffer Prelude, Osmiroid 65

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What about the letters j, k, w, x and y?

 

There is no what or why without them. ;)

 

Edit: Or just kidding, for that matter.

Edited by A Smug Dill

I endeavour to be frank and truthful in what I write, show or otherwise present, when I relate my first-hand experiences that are not independently verifiable; and link to third-party content where I can, when I make a claim or refute a statement of fact in a thread. If there is something you can verify for yourself, I entreat you to do so, and judge for yourself what is right, correct for valid. I may be wrong, and my position or say-so is no more authoritative and carries no more weight than anyone else's here.

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What about the letters j, k, w, x and y?

PS

 

of course we have added them to the alphabet to write foreign languages, but they are not foreseen in our original Italian alphabet...

 

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