The Meisterstück 149 Calligraphy Appreciation Thread

[fpupulin]

Apparently, I can not attach more files, as the drag window shows that the Max total size of the files I can upload is 468.3 kB, i.e., the more or less the size of a single image I usually attach to my posts.

 

Is anybody there who can help?

[amberleadavis]

52 minutes ago, fpupulin said:

Apparently, I can not attach more files, as the drag window shows that the Max total size of the files I can upload is 468.3 kB, i.e., the more or less the size of a single image I usually attach to my posts.

 

Is anybody there who can help?

Actually, don't attach them.  Use the gallery to upload your photos (I'll add instructions in one minute), then use the "Other Media" button on the bottom right to "Insert Other Media" to grab picture from the gallery.

[amberleadavis]

12 minutes ago, amberleadavis said:

Actually, don't attach them.  Use the gallery to upload your photos (I'll add instructions in one minute), then use the "Other Media" button on the bottom right to "Insert Other Media" to grab picture from the gallery.

 

@lapis helped me with these instructions:

 

1.  .> Gallery > Add Images > Choose Category: Select v > FPN Image Albums > Use an existing album > mark the album named there (e.g. with username >
Use Selected Album > + (Add Images) > from the list of your files appearing, choose and open one or more images > Submit all images.

2.  To insert that image into a post, there are at least two ways:

3.  Right click it, copy it, and then insert it into the text, or

4.  In the post itself in FPN – with the cursor where I want the image to appear – hit the button Other Media v (down to the right) > select Insert existing attachment * > click Gallery Images (up to the left) and then select and click the image I want. (Post Attachments apparently refers to any FPN attachments which I may have inserted anywhere earlier) > click Insert 1 selected. Of course, I can always click and select more than just 1 image.

5.  As can be seen, the image I want is now inserted where I want it, so just hit Submit Topic.

*   If I would prefer to use the other option (Insert image from URL), then the correct URL has to be chosen from a right-mouse click on the Gallery image followed by the selection Save aim under, not Copy link !

 

These are from @wimg

 

BTW, right-clicking on your image in the Gallery, and copying it, then pasting it into your post, is a quick option to get your image into your replies as well.

 

The advantage of posting your images in the Gallery, is that it can't get lost because a hosting website goes down, or starts asking money, etc., so it never leaves a gaping hole in a post. We have seen this happening too many times as it is :).

it also makes FPN a prettier place to visit, too, IMO :).

 

And somewhere around here @A Smug Dill has created some detailed instructions (I didn't find them where I was expecting to find them in Members Helping Other Members so I'm linking him here to ask him where those awesome instructions can be found.

[A Smug Dill]

42 minutes ago, amberleadavis said:

And somewhere around here @A Smug Dill has created some detailed instructions …

 

Thanks for the mention.

 

It's here:

 

and there are some other instructions for using different methods and devices in the same album.

[DrDebG]

Wow!  What a thread!  

 

Thank you, Franco, for the amazing photography and the excellent review of the MB Calligraphy pen.  I am currently looking at purchasing another MB 146 or 149, and read your comments on this pen with great interest.  But truthfully, I have never been a big flex nib person and much more of a italic/stub kind of person.  I don't do calligraphy (someday . . . ) so the MB Calligraphy might be overkill.  And, I guess it is a good thing that I am not interested in the pen since it isn't available anywhere.  

 

But I appreciate your photos and your insight sooooooooo much!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

And thank you for posting about the Ames Lettering Guide and the Calligraphy books.  I use my Ames Guide for my professional maps and the lettering on them.  But, I never thought to use if for Calligraphy - which it was probably meant for.  And I just ordered a copy of the Sullivan book.  Who knows?  I might get into Calligraphy when I have some time.  

 

But thanks again!

[fpupulin]

amberleadavis, A Smug Dill: thank you so much for your concern and your help!

 

I followed your detailed instructions, et voila, I am ready to post again!

 

So, I can begin from where I left, comparing the result of the Calligraphy nib when using the Aurora Black and the Montblanc Black Permanent.

 

Thank you again.

[fpupulin]

The Black Permanent, being a denser ink, does not feather, while there is a noticeable feathering by the Aurora Black. An enlargement of part of the texts reveals this clearly.

 

 

The feathering of the Aurora is still visible, although less pronounced, in the following image, with a couple of lines written on Graf von Faber Castell paper. In this case, I haven't photographed the back of the sheet, but here too there is a fair bleeding of the Aurora, absent in the text written with Black Permanent. 

 

 

Neither inks bleed through on good quality paper, as was to be expected. Even in this image, however, it is possible to observe how the Black Permanent is darker, more black, and allows to trace finer strokes.

 

 

In the last shot, it can also be seen that the color of the Montbalnc ink is more neutral, while the Aurora Black has a slightly greenish tint. Under tap water, when washing it from the pen, the Aurora shows a purple undertone, which completely absent in Montblanc ink.

 

 

In conclusions, for my tastes and for my use of it, Montblanc's Black Permanent is a decidedly preferable ink. I find it superior in terms of darkness, color neutrality, and absence of feathering and bleeding through all types of paper, including the less sophisticated ones that I use most frequently.

 

Thank you for reading.

[fpupulin]

1 hour ago, DrDebG said:

[...] I am currently looking at purchasing another MB 146 or 149, and read your comments on this pen with great interest.  But truthfully, I have never been a big flex nib person and much more of a italic/stub kind of person.  I don't do calligraphy (someday . . . ) so the MB Calligraphy might be overkill.  And, I guess it is a good thing that I am not interested in the pen since it isn't available anywhere.  

 

[...] And I just ordered a copy of the Sullivan book.  Who knows?  I might get into Calligraphy when I have some time.  

 

 

DrDebG: thank you for your kind comments. 

 

I do not want to be stressing, trying to convince you to hunt for a 149 Calligraphy. We can happily live without her...

 

However, would one of these pens cross your path, I would suggest you to buy her. Even without extra-ordinary expectations, she is a good example of a modern Meisterstück 149, she has a quite unusual concolorous yellow gold nib, and probably the best extra-fine nib of any recent 149. Furthermore, would you put her on a trial, she has a flexible nib.

 

As you rightly say, may well be that you might get into Calligraphy...

[como]

@fpupulinI just found the posts in the Stipula Photo Thread where I had the same problem as you did and @wimghelped me solve it. When I came back here to copy and paste the solution, I saw that other members @amberleadavis@A Smug Dillalso pitched in! Nevermind!🙂

 

Thank you very much for the ink and paper comparison of Aurora Black and Montblanc Permanent Black. You solved a small problem for me: Sometimes ago I stopped using Moleskine notebooks because the paper seems to feather with the pens and inks that I was using. Now seeing from your posts, I think there is hope! I will try the MB Permanent Black. THANK YOU!!

[fpupulin]

[fpupulin]

7 hours ago, como said:

@fpupulinI just found the posts in the Stipula Photo Thread where I had the same problem as you did and @wimghelped me solve it. When I came back here to copy and paste the solution, I saw that other members @amberleadavis@A Smug Dillalso pitched in! Nevermind!🙂

 

Thank you very much for the ink and paper comparison of Aurora Black and Montblanc Permanent Black. You solved a small problem for me: Sometimes ago I stopped using Moleskine notebooks because the paper seems to feather with the pens and inks that I was using. Now seeing from your posts, I think there is hope! I will try the MB Permanent Black. THANK YOU!!

 

Thank you, my friend, for thinking of coming to my rescue: I felt a bit lost ... 

 

I have used Moleskine notebooks for the last 40 years. Just like you, and like those who love this line of notebooks, I know from experience that Moleskine paper is not only, often, really impossible to use with a fountain pen, but also that its quality is totally unpredictable, different from notebook to notebook.
I have tried a lot of substitute notebooks, and indeed I confess to you that I have a whole shelf full of Moleskine-alike notebooks. Some undoubtedly have better paper, but none have, for me, that ne-sais-pas-quoi which has a good Moleskine notebook: the shape, the rounded corners, the type of cover ...

As much as I did, I couldn't get Moleskine away from my heart, and I ended up getting used to the paper where the ink goes, even if it's really not what I would have preferred.

Everything changed when, due to my 149 Calligraphy, I discovered Montblanc Permanent Inks. Neither the Black nor the Blue bleeds through any of the Moleskine papers, not even the seemingly cheaper ones, not even when I flex the nib and it releases a large, abundant ink line. Now, finally, I can use any of my beloved Moleskines, just as I have always wanted.
Last year, while my wife was in Germany for studies, I wrote her a letter every day for just over a year. I filled three large Moleskines with thick writing, on both sides, without a single shadow of bleeding through the paper. Just plain perfect for my taste.

I don't know how much you are into blue inks, but Permanent Blue is really worth a try: I'm sure you'll like it just as much, if not more, than Permanent black.

[DrDebG]

Thank you for your kind words. 

 

I used Moleskine notebooks for many years.  I loved them . . . but then I was using mostly pencil and some rollerballs (horrors!).  But when I gravitated back to fountain pens, I became frustrated with them very quickly - mainly because of the inconsistency of paper with the notebook.  One page would accept my fountain pen (ef nib with Parker Quink blue) and another page would bleed and feather like a stuck chicken. 

 

Then, out of frustration, I talked to someone at an office supply store (this was before I got serious about fountain pens and got involved with FPN) and they steered me to the Cambridge Professional Notebooks.  One day I was wandering through a hardware store and noticed a display of Rhodia notebooks.  I thought they were ridiculously expensive, but I bought a couple. I was very pleased with the way they handled fountain pen ink.  Not too long after this, I was in Taiwan and found an fantastic pen store (TyLee's) and ended up purchasing several pens, more ink that I probably should have and several packages of Tomoe River paper.  Later I found Nanami Paper and started buying my TR notebooks from them.  But only recently have I considered other papers.  That is because my favorite Tomoe River 52 gsm has been discontinued in favor of "new" Tomoe River paper, which is substandard.  Now, I am trying new notebooks.  Currently I am using a notebook with Cosmo Air Light paper.  It is significantly different than Tomoe River, but does wonderful things for the ink that I use.  The sheen and shading of the inks I use really "pop" with this paper with no bleeding, feathering or show through.  For narrow nibs, the paper is great.  But I have only been using it for a week or so, and I am not totally sold yet.  

 

Sorry for the ramble.  It happens sometimes. 

 

Anyway, I will investigate the MB Calligraphy pen a bit more, based on your recommendation, and if I find one, I will go ahead and get it.  I will let you know how it goes. 

[Frank C]

15 minutes ago, DrDebG said:

Anyway, I will investigate the MB Calligraphy pen a bit more, based on your recommendation, and if I find one, I will go ahead and get it.  I will let you know how it goes. 

I found mine by contacting MB USA. They were able to search their boutiques and found the pen in Orlando, Florida. After a few text messages, emails, credit card numbers, and four days, it was delivered to my home. I have really enjoyed using it. I just refilled it for the first time with MB Permanent Black ink, one of Franco's favorites. There are also some available at some European Montblanc dealers the last time I checked. 

[DrDebG]

3 minutes ago, Frank C said:

I found mine by contacting MB USA. They were able to search their boutiques and found the pen in Orlando, Florida. After a few text messages, emails, credit card numbers, and four days, it was delivered to my home. I have really enjoyed using it. I just refilled it for the first time with MB Permanent Black ink, one of Franco's favorites. There are also some available at some European Montblanc dealers the last time I checked. 

 

Thank you for the information.  I will check it out.  

[como]

16 hours ago, fpupulin said:

 

Thank you, my friend, for thinking of coming to my rescue: I felt a bit lost ... 

 

I have used Moleskine notebooks for the last 40 years. Just like you, and like those who love this line of notebooks, I know from experience that Moleskine paper is not only, often, really impossible to use with a fountain pen, but also that its quality is totally unpredictable, different from notebook to notebook.
I have tried a lot of substitute notebooks, and indeed I confess to you that I have a whole shelf full of Moleskine-alike notebooks. Some undoubtedly have better paper, but none have, for me, that ne-sais-pas-quoi which has a good Moleskine notebook: the shape, the rounded corners, the type of cover ...

As much as I did, I couldn't get Moleskine away from my heart, and I ended up getting used to the paper where the ink goes, even if it's really not what I would have preferred.

Everything changed when, due to my 149 Calligraphy, I discovered Montblanc Permanent Inks. Neither the Black nor the Blue bleeds through any of the Moleskine papers, not even the seemingly cheaper ones, not even when I flex the nib and it releases a large, abundant ink line. Now, finally, I can use any of my beloved Moleskines, just as I have always wanted.
Last year, while my wife was in Germany for studies, I wrote her a letter every day for just over a year. I filled three large Moleskines with thick writing, on both sides, without a single shadow of bleeding through the paper. Just plain perfect for my taste.

I don't know how much you are into blue inks, but Permanent Blue is really worth a try: I'm sure you'll like it just as much, if not more, than Permanent black.

@fpupulinI am very touched to hear that you wrote your wife one letter a day for a year. A literal example of why fountain pens are such romantic and personal objects. I admire that people grow stronger through challenges and difficulties. 

 

I think that we are all nostalgic about these Moleskine notebooks. I have since discovered Leuchtturm1917, in the same Moleskine style, and Tomoe River notebooks (I mainly use 52gsm for journaling). Leuchtturn good and TR excellent for normal writing. Recently I bought some laid paper to try for calligraphy. From what's available from the local stationery shop, I tried Original Crown Mill (100g) of Belgium. I have both Fabriano Ingres and Fabriano Unica on order, so I will soon experiment with them too. Consistent with what you mentioned, the laid paper seems to me more suitable for calligraphy, with an ink a bit more dense so it doesn't feather, and definitely a helpful Extra Fine with a bit of controlled flex would be quite suitable.

 

I had a look at pens from my collection that can be suitable for calligraphy. Here you see the list. They are mostly Omas vintage. Several in Lady size (oh I couldn't always afford the Midsize or Senior). My hands aren't too big. I can still get by using them. Yes, I am very tempted to get the MB Calligraphy!! Btw, I desperately need the Ames ruler 😀

 

Oh if only Moleskine company can listen: please re-vamp your lines of products so we can use them for fountain pens too! 🙂

[fpupulin]

7 hours ago, como said:

@fpupulinI am very touched to hear that you wrote your wife one letter a day for a year. A literal example of why fountain pens are such romantic and personal objects. I admire that people grow stronger through challenges and difficulties. 

 

I think that we are all nostalgic about these Moleskine notebooks. I have since discovered Leuchtturm1917, in the same Moleskine style, and Tomoe River notebooks (I mainly use 52gsm for journaling). Leuchtturn good and TR excellent for normal writing. Recently I bought some laid paper to try for calligraphy. From what's available from the local stationery shop, I tried Original Crown Mill (100g) of Belgium. I have both Fabriano Ingres and Fabriano Unica on order, so I will soon experiment with them too. Consistent with what you mentioned, the laid paper seems to me more suitable for calligraphy, with an ink a bit more dense so it doesn't feather, and definitely a helpful Extra Fine with a bit of controlled flex would be quite suitable.

 

I had a look at pens from my collection that can be suitable for calligraphy. Here you see the list. They are mostly Omas vintage. Several in Lady size (oh I couldn't always afford the Midsize or Senior). My hands aren't too big. I can still get by using them. Yes, I am very tempted to get the MB Calligraphy!! Btw, I desperately need the Ames ruler 😀

 

Oh if only Moleskine company can listen: please re-vamp your lines of products so we can use them for fountain pens too! 🙂

 

 

A decade ago, I spent a few months at the Royal Botanical Garden in Madrid, studying the original orchid manuscripts and illustrations of the first major botanical expedition organized by the Crown of Spain to its overseas possessions, an adventure that Spanish botanists Hipólito Ruiz and José Pavón first, and their attachés later, conducted in Peru and Ecuador between 1777 and 1811. This work was converted, some time later, into two voluminous articles published in the scientific journal of the Madrid Botanical Garden (here the links, for the real curious among you: http://rjb.revistas.csic.es/index.php/rjb/article/view/354 and http://rjb.revistas.csic.es/index.php/rjb/article/view/377).

 

It was very interesting to have all those ancient and varied papers of the expedition in my hands. They were chosen with care, as can be seen from the purchase receipts conserved in the archives, because paper was a valuable and expensive commodity at the time. The manuscripts are written on medium quality paper, then transferred in copy to superior quality paper, and so are the drawings, on larger and more valuable sheets. If I had already nurtured a friendship for paper, my stay in Madrid ended up turning it into a passion.

 

Most of the eighteenth and nineteenth century paper is laid paper, like the one you showed me in your example. With the beautiful handwriting you have, and with the pens you have at your disposal, I would say that you don't have much to improve, but you can always try your hand at styles and scripts that you haven't practiced yet! By the way, if this wasn't too much trouble, when you will have Fabriano's Ingres paper in your hands, would you tell me about a comparison with the Original Crown Mill? It has always intrigued me to try it and who knows, for my next trip to Italy I may try to get some sheets.

 

And now, dear friend, just a note on the laid paper. Everyone can use it, of course, as he wants and as he prefers, but the laid paper has an its own “direction". If you observe it against the light, you will see that it presents in filigree a quantity of fine lines, the “vergelle", and some thicker lines transversal to these, the “catenelle” or “filoni”. The vergelle are the "imprint" of the thin plates that are used, in the mould, to hold the paper pulp while letting the water flow out, while the catenelle are rods (generally brass) which have the purpose of keeping the vergelle in their position.

 

On your paper, at the time of writing, the catenelle should be vertical, and the vergelle horizontal, because in this way the thin undulations of the paper produced by the vergelle interfere less with the smoothness of the nib than they do when they are placed vertically. 

 

If you would like to see some fine examples of Renaissance-era laid papers, with their filigrees, there is a nice article on the web on the “Paper at the time of Leonardo", at this address: https://www.leonardodavinci-italy.it/la-carta-di-leonardo. It is written in Italian, but I have the impression that you can read it ...

[invisuu]

So I wanted to show my results as well...I'm not trying to bash MB Permanent Black, just to be clear, I really do love the ink, but Aurora Black from my tests is just a tiny bit better. It's the Aurora Black 100th anniversary bottle - from what I've read there shouldn't be any difference to non-anniversary bottles, but just wanted to put that out there. I've compared them on Clairefontaine paper and Rhodia 90gsm premium paper. I find Montblanc Permanent Black ink significantly more difficult to control on single line writing (it's fine on multiple lines; larger font) and honestly...not actually blacker than the Aurora at all.

 

I think the paper might play a larger role here altogether. What do y'all think?

Clairefontaine paper: 

 

Rhodia paper: 

 

Montblanc up close:

 

Aurora up close:

 

Comparison min vs max pressure:

[como]

On 5/26/2021 at 5:30 PM, fpupulin said:

 

 

A decade ago, I spent a few months at the Royal Botanical Garden in Madrid, studying the original orchid manuscripts and illustrations of the first major botanical expedition organized by the Crown of Spain to its overseas possessions, an adventure that Spanish botanists Hipólito Ruiz and José Pavón first, and their attachés later, conducted in Peru and Ecuador between 1777 and 1811. This work was converted, some time later, into two voluminous articles published in the scientific journal of the Madrid Botanical Garden (here the links, for the real curious among you: http://rjb.revistas.csic.es/index.php/rjb/article/view/354 and http://rjb.revistas.csic.es/index.php/rjb/article/view/377).

 

It was very interesting to have all those ancient and varied papers of the expedition in my hands. They were chosen with care, as can be seen from the purchase receipts conserved in the archives, because paper was a valuable and expensive commodity at the time. The manuscripts are written on medium quality paper, then transferred in copy to superior quality paper, and so are the drawings, on larger and more valuable sheets. If I had already nurtured a friendship for paper, my stay in Madrid ended up turning it into a passion.

 

Most of the eighteenth and nineteenth century paper is laid paper, like the one you showed me in your example. With the beautiful handwriting you have, and with the pens you have at your disposal, I would say that you don't have much to improve, but you can always try your hand at styles and scripts that you haven't practiced yet! By the way, if this wasn't too much trouble, when you will have Fabriano's Ingres paper in your hands, would you tell me about a comparison with the Original Crown Mill? It has always intrigued me to try it and who knows, for my next trip to Italy I may try to get some sheets.

 

And now, dear friend, just a note on the laid paper. Everyone can use it, of course, as he wants and as he prefers, but the laid paper has an its own “direction". If you observe it against the light, you will see that it presents in filigree a quantity of fine lines, the “vergelle", and some thicker lines transversal to these, the “catenelle” or “filoni”. The vergelle are the "imprint" of the thin plates that are used, in the mould, to hold the paper pulp while letting the water flow out, while the catenelle are rods (generally brass) which have the purpose of keeping the vergelle in their position.

 

On your paper, at the time of writing, the catenelle should be vertical, and the vergelle horizontal, because in this way the thin undulations of the paper produced by the vergelle interfere less with the smoothness of the nib than they do when they are placed vertically. 

 

If you would like to see some fine examples of Renaissance-era laid papers, with their filigrees, there is a nice article on the web on the “Paper at the time of Leonardo", at this address: https://www.leonardodavinci-italy.it/la-carta-di-leonardo. It is written in Italian, but I have the impression that you can read it ...

@fpupulinFascinating topics of Royal Botanic Garden of Madrid and laid paper. Thank you very much for sharing and for your kind words. I moved too many times in my life and until now never dared to own any plants. Only recently I started to learn to take care of some. I started with 3 cacti 😀. Half of my strawberries are not looking too good, and two other plants are doing well though I don't know what they are. It must be terrible for a professor dedicated to botanic gardens to hear all of this. I am really sorry! I lived in Madrid for some time and visited the Royal Botanic Garden of Madrid almost 20 years ago. I remember thinking that this was an exotic world and a world I knew nothing about...

 

The Fabriano paper (Ingres and Unica) is coming sooner than I expected. I hope that soon I will show some examples here. Of paper I also knew very little. Thank you for pointing out the correct direction the laid paper is used. I had no idea. 

 

Your wonderful encounters with the manuscripts in Madrid reminded me of the Abbey Library of St. Gallen (Switzerland), "Stiftsbibliothek". It has thousands of manuscripts, quite something to see! 

https://www.stiftsbezirk.ch/de/stiftsbibliothek/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abbey_library_of_Saint_Gall

 

Oh, I can't speak Italian but my Spanish is decent. I used to chat with the grandparents of our Italian neighbours who came to look after the grandchildren while the parents were working. They spoke Italian to me and I Spanish to them and we had a good time! Precision is not required in such conversations 😀. I have not seen them since Covid started, though I think they are ok.

[amberleadavis]

On 5/25/2021 at 6:36 AM, fpupulin said:

 

 

Thank you!

[amberleadavis]

@A Smug Dill I added your gallery of answers to the Inky Thoughts Start Here page too.