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> FP designs, by and large, aren't protected by patents.

 

Some people should better check the patent databases. Pilot e.g. has several design! patents - NOT about the mechanism! - for the VP.

 

Anyway, what do I care.

Japanese patent conventions are a bit different than in some other countries, often a specific implementation of a common design element can be issued a patent, where in the US an overarching novel concept might be required.

 

If we're going after copycats, let's give credit to Eversharp for kicking this design arc off with the Gold Seal and Doric pens.

Edited by awa54

David-

 

So many restoration projects...

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Check out the Leonardo Messenger in Caramel.... what's going on here?!?!

 

 

What about it? You saying it looks like the acrylic PenBBS and a few others in China have used? I think Edison used it before PenBBS. But I expect Leonardo mixed their own acrylic and it just happens to look similar. I expect some other company used it before Edison. Maybe it was all a copy of some celluloid from long ago.

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What about it? You saying it looks like the acrylic PenBBS and a few others in China have used? I think Edison used it before PenBBS. But I expect Leonardo mixed their own acrylic and it just happens to look similar. I expect some other company used it before Edison. Maybe it was all a copy of some celluloid from long ago.

 

 

If you are going to start tracing the origin of patterns on these plastic pens I fear that you are going on a long & useless journey (unless that pattern is very very unique).

 

 

the correlations make me wonder about possible supply chain inter-relation... no proof, just wondering aloud.

David-

 

So many restoration projects...

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I really don't see the point of buying these cheap Chinese pens. They seldom work well and their nibs are usually in need of "adjustment". They may be cheap but they are rip offs of good artisanal European pen makers, like Leonardo Officina.

In the end, it is surely better to buy a really good pen (or a few), like Pelikans or Sailors, and enjoy writing with these. It may be more expensive, but you can only write with one pen at a time, so it is worth saving up for a fine writing instrument that becomes a constant companion!

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One thing that gets overlooked in these discussions about why Chinese copy is the Chinese pedagogy. Chinese culture values learning from a master by imitating, then surpassing the master. The copying can be seen as a manufacturer paying homage to a proven design then making incremental changes. They may not want to surpass the design they copy until they feel the domestic market can withstand it. Chinese still like the allure of foreign goods. Companies like N9 and Live In You who are trying to carve out a design aesthetic, know that young Chinese will not pay their prices for a Chinese nib. It is safer to use a German nib and to grow the brand, rather than hope hip youngsters will flaunt a Chinese nib. The stigma of being stodgy Hero pens with Chinese nibs is a factor here. I will also say that Chinese Safari knockoffs write better for me than Lamy steel nibs.

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I really don't see the point of buying these cheap Chinese pens. They seldom work well and their nibs are usually in need of "adjustment". They may be cheap but they are rip offs of good artisanal European pen makers, like Leonardo Officina.

In the end, it is surely better to buy a really good pen (or a few), like Pelikans or Sailors, and enjoy writing with these. It may be more expensive, but you can only write with one pen at a time, so it is worth saving up for a fine writing instrument that becomes a constant companion!

 

I broadly agree with you that overall it's better to invest in a few quality pens. I love my Lamy studio for example, which I got for around 40 euros, and since 40 euros isn't much I'd rather have the Lamy than a slightly cheaper Chinese pen.

 

But I don't think all Chinese pens are of poor quality. PenBBS seems to make decent pens although they don't really appeal to me. They look a little cheap but they generally receive positive reviews. Also, many of PenBBS models have original designs except for a couple.

 

I'd never buy a new Pelikan or Sailor pen at their retail prices in Europe/America. Why pay over £100 for a steel nibbed plastic pen?? And why pay ridiculously marked up prices for Sailor pens when you can import them from Japan for half the price? At least Chinese pens have honest price tags.

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I really don't see the point of buying these cheap Chinese pens. They seldom work well and their nibs are usually in need of "adjustment". They may be cheap but they are rip offs of good artisanal European pen makers, like Leonardo Officina.

Are you talking specifically about "these" Moonman 800 pens, or more generally "cheap Chinese pens" including other models that prospectively take consumer spending away from Western and/or Japanese pen manufacturers?

 

If it's the former, I'm not sure how you've come to conclude that Moonman 800 pens seldom work well. How many data points do you have to arrive at and/or support that claim? Not to mention that Moonman 800 is optionally sold fitted with Bock nibs instead of Moonman-branded, Chinese-made nibs.

 

Besides, my genuine Leonardo Momento Zero did not write well out of the box, and in fact the tines were asymmetrical, with a thicker glob of tipping on one tine than on the other, which then put more pressure on that first tine when writing. It took me a lot of (ham-fisted) "adjustment" to reshape the tipping material and got both tines to roughly balance.

 

Your next comment about Pelikan and Sailor pens seems to suggest you weren't just talking about Moonman 800 pens, however.

 

In the end, it is surely better to buy a really good pen (or a few), like Pelikans or Sailors, and enjoy writing with these.

It depends on the consumer's purpose for buying those pens. Besides, it doesn't have to be an either-or proposition. My wife and I already have ten Pelikan and maybe thirty Sailor (not all of which are gold-nibbed and/or expensive) — and numerous Aurora, Pilot, Platinum, etc. — pens, but we think a lot of the Moonman and PenBBS pens are pretty; so why not also buy a few dozen of those for eye candy?

 

If there's one thing I often don't like about Western pens, it's that even their EF nibs aren't fine and/or precise enough. Moonman and PenBBS nibs aren't great for that either; but the Schmidt nibs on my Moonman M100 and M200 pens are great in that regard, and I've also found Delike nibs among "cheap Chinese pens" to be generally good.

 

It may be more expensive, but you can only write with one pen at a time, so it is worth saving up for a fine writing instrument that becomes a constant companion!

But I don't want a constant companion in a pen, any more than I want just one all-purpose jacket. I think I bought at least forty jackets — honestly, I lost count — in the past four years for myself, and yes, some jackets don't even get a single wear the entire winter (or three) before being packed away again. I love having the variety, though, and seeing so much that could take my fancy on a given day in my personal hoard. Mostly I pick a jacket to wear based on its functional features, to match environmental conditions or operational requirements, but sometimes it's nice to (say) just wear bright green on a whim, and have three different bright green ones at hand from which to choose.

 

So I don't see buying two, or five, or a dozen more "cheap Chinese pens" as somehow missing the point of my hobby. However, I don't actually think the Moonman 800 with steel Bock nib counts as a "cheap Chinese pen"; I've bought genuine, gold-nibbed Platinum PTL-5000A pens for less on more than one occasion.

As always:  1. Implicit in everything and every instance I write on FPN is the invitation for you to judge me as a peer in the community. I think it's only due respect to take each other's written word in online discussion seriously and apply critical judgment.  2. I do not presume to judge for you what is right, correct or valid. If I make a claim, or refute a statement in a thread, and link to references and other information in support, I beseech you to review and consider those, and judge for yourself. I may be wrong. My position or say-so carries no more weight than anyone else's here, and external parties can speak for themselves with what they have published.  3. I endeavour to be frank and truthful in what I write, show or otherwise present when I relate my first-hand experiences that are not independently verifiable. If it is something you can test for yourself and see the results, I entreat you to do so.

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well, cheap or not, imitation or not, i got mine today -moonman nib.

 

i like it for what it is...

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You know what ; I had better consistency and less issue with most of my so call cheap Chinese fountain pen ( which numbered in hundreds ) vs my also not small cache of ( not quite a hundred but close ) Italian made ones

 

And as far as current and contemporary models goes cheap does not equate cheap and that goes for almost all brand Chinese or else the tech is mature and there is really no voodoo to it

 

Even the most prestigious say Pelikan M1000 / Montblanc 146 what's in there that's cutting edge technology - hmm .....

 

If put to it any of todays Mfr can do a QUALITY cheap fountain oen ; its just whether the Mfr would cater to the market sector and sadly few do and Italian Mfr in particular.

 

I salute the many German Japanese Indian European and Chinese Mfrs who still made quality CHEAP fountain pen ; for students for the larger populations.

 

Why am I not seeing this debate when MOONMAN give us the N3 or the M5 - No I do not agree with outright cloning a design and that is why I never bother with any Safari Clone Copy or this M800 or M600s but in and among Chinese fountain pen they are now more the minority than the norm but why is their presense felt - well more like their other models are simply not felt - there were still a strong bias against any fountain pen Chinese among some of us and take fury if they see something like the M800 ( and with some justification I shall say ) but when such are amplified to gross all Chinese fountain pen then its no more truth than being just prejudice at play

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I really don't see the point of buying these cheap Chinese pens. They seldom work well and their nibs are usually in need of "adjustment". They may be cheap but they are rip offs of good artisanal European pen makers, like Leonardo Officina.

In the end, it is surely better to buy a really good pen (or a few), like Pelikans or Sailors, and enjoy writing with these. It may be more expensive, but you can only write with one pen at a time, so it is worth saving up for a fine writing instrument that becomes a constant companion!

 

Literally nothing you said in your first three sentences is objectively true, nor has it been for at least 5 years.

 

I've had a greater percentage of failure in my italian pens north of $500 than I have with pens from china.

Edited by Honeybadgers

Selling a boatload of restored, fairly rare, vintage Japanese gold nib pens, click here to see (more added as I finish restoring them)

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> I really don't see the point of buying these cheap Chinese pens.

 

Then what do you want to find in postings about Chinese pens?

 

Your mindset seems to be very fixed. Simple solution for you: buy non-Chinese brands and don't look in the China subforum of FPN.

 

Or are you on a mission to convince Chinese pen buyers to buy non-Chinese pens?

If so, good luck for that.

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