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Can Someone Explain These Penbbs Nibs And Line Sizes?



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I found this image on the PenBBS Etsy site and it totally confuses me. Can someone explain how the nibs line up with the line sizes?

 

xAfqGzk.jpg

"There are thousands of thoughts lying within a man that he does not know 'till he takes up the pen and writes."

- William Thackeray

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Yes, very confusing! I don't think the pictured nibs match the numerical notations in any way.

"It's funny; in this era of email and voice mail and all those things that I did not even grow up with, a plain old paper letter takes on amazing intimacy."  Elizabeth Kostova

 

 

 

 

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My initial thoughts are the nibs are not lined up with the line widths at all and that the nibs line up in sequence something like this:

 

EF - Extra Fine mini fude

EF - Extra Fine round with Fancy F

F - Fine mini fude

F - Fine round

M - Medium with fancy "M"

M - Medium with fancy "M" (no idea if there are different mediums)

"There are thousands of thoughts lying within a man that he does not know 'till he takes up the pen and writes."

- William Thackeray

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AFAIK, those line are just for reference so you can compare it yourself how the nibs are , they bear no relation to how wide the nib writes , the nibs are ( from the left, the one pointing at the 0.1mm line )

 

  • Round Grind M
  • Round Grind EF
  • Petite Fude F ( aka PenBBS usual Standard Fine )
  • Round Grind F
  • Round Grind M
  • Round Grind EF
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AFAIK, those line are just for reference so you can compare it yourself how the nibs are , they bear no relation to how wide the nib writes , the nibs are ( from the left, the one pointing at the 0.1mm line )

 

  • Round Grind M
  • Round Grind EF
  • Petite Fude F ( aka PenBBS usual Standard Fine )
  • Round Grind F
  • Round Grind M
  • Round Grind EF

 

 

Thanks Mech! That helps a lot!

"There are thousands of thoughts lying within a man that he does not know 'till he takes up the pen and writes."

- William Thackeray

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  • 1 year later...
Naoki NISHIKAWA
  • Petite Fude F ( aka PenBBS usual Standard Fine )

The literal translation of the two Chinese characters are:

 

Sword

and

Point 

 

So, chances are good that the description of the nib is referring to the SHAPE of the nib. Not the pen point per se. 

 

 

Edited by Naoki NISHIKAWA
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A Smug Dill
On 3/13/2021 at 12:59 PM, Naoki NISHIKAWA said:

The literal translation of the two Chinese characters are:

 

Sword

and

Point 

 

Actually, 刀鋒 in Chinese literally means “[the sharp edge of a] blade” and not “point” (which would be 尖). You're correct, however, that it refers to the shape of the nib, in the way “[Naginata] togi” refers to the shape of the nib, to be further qualified by the nib width grade such as F, M, etc. @Mech-for-i is correct in saying that the 刀鋒 nib is what he often refers to as a petite Fude nib, although it's questionable whether there is a standard definition or common understanding of what constitutes a Fude [de Mannen] nib, including how long or short the bent tip has to be and the angle of the bend; ‘Fude’ cannot simply mean bent, including to English-speaking fountain pen users.

 

Edited by A Smug Dill
removed superfluous word ‘in’

I endeavour to be frank and truthful in what I write, show or otherwise present, when I relate my first-hand experiences that are not independently verifiable; and link to third-party content where I can, when I make a claim or refute a statement of fact in a thread. If there is something you can verify for yourself, I entreat you to do so, and judge for yourself what is right, correct for valid. I may be wrong, and my position or say-so is no more authoritative and carries no more weight than anyone else's here.

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Mech-for-i

The issue is in form of text and language , the bladed edge part refer to the grind, but the petite fude part refer to the nib usage. Fude, in original Japanese term, just mean calligraphy indicating the usage of the nib, not the grind of the nib, and likewise the Chinese nib termed Petite Fude just denote the usage the nib intended for not the grind of the nib which can be many.

 

 

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Naoki NISHIKAWA
On 3/14/2021 at 2:34 AM, A Smug Dill said:

Actually, in 刀鋒 in Chinese literally means “[the sharp edge of a] blade” and not “point” (which would be 尖).

 

Thanks! In Japan where I live, the 鋒 means the very tip of a sword. But apparently the meaning is slightly different in China (original meaning). I appreciate your comment.

Edited by Naoki NISHIKAWA
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Naoki NISHIKAWA
On 3/14/2021 at 2:34 AM, A Smug Dill said:

it's questionable whether there is a standard definition or common understanding of what constitutes a Fude [de Mannen] nib,

 

Okay, now I understand that it is okay to refer this particular product as "fude" albeit how common the usage is ??? to me. But yeah, a Fude in Japanese language means a Brush ... Also Sailor Pen company has been marketing the  Fude de Mannen pen for its LINE VARIATIONS ... 

Edited by Naoki NISHIKAWA
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Naoki NISHIKAWA
On 3/14/2021 at 1:55 PM, Mech-for-i said:

Fude, in original Japanese term, just mean calligraphy

 

Fude means a Brush in Japanese language. For example, a make-up brush (cosmetics), an oil painting brush, etc. 

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A Smug Dill
7 minutes ago, Naoki NISHIKAWA said:

Fude means a Brush in Japanese language.

 

Thank you for the explanation.

I endeavour to be frank and truthful in what I write, show or otherwise present, when I relate my first-hand experiences that are not independently verifiable; and link to third-party content where I can, when I make a claim or refute a statement of fact in a thread. If there is something you can verify for yourself, I entreat you to do so, and judge for yourself what is right, correct for valid. I may be wrong, and my position or say-so is no more authoritative and carries no more weight than anyone else's here.

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Mech-for-i

Thank you , I am a bit down on my Japanese. Speaking of fude, I've came across a vintage Sailor that say fude but the nib only had a very minimal bend / curve up. It's on a vintage Sailor a fellow Hobbyist own. Gone to show variety is pretty vast out there with these kind of nib.

 

Pilot's own variation of the fude is their Wavely WA nib though it look , feel, and write quite different than a Sailor

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Naoki NISHIKAWA
2 hours ago, Mech-for-i said:

Thank you , I am a bit down on my Japanese. 

 

I'm sorry if I've made you feel somewhat uncomfortable. Originally, I just simply did not realize the word "fude" was derived from a Japanese word. Now that I know it was, "fude" is one of the 文房四寶,  即、毛筆, 墨, 紙, and 硯, and is 毛筆 (a brush). Thus Fude de Mannen is marketed for its line variations in Japan. That is as far as the usage is concerned, the usage of the Fude de Mannen (stiff nib) is, in Japan, supposedly, somewhat similar to that of Pilot FA nib (flex nib). 

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Mech-for-i

No problem, its good to be enlightened with knowledge , always. Piot FA nib had very interesting history, since its Pilot's co-effort with Specialist Retailers developing a nib specifically for writing the home Language ( Japanese ) , and similarly the Chinese calligraphy nib of all variation is tailored for writing the said home Language ( Chinese ). While both are based off using Brush there is significant difference between the two. Pilot's own variation of the Fude is their Wavely WA nib , but that is so different vs Sailor's

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Naoki NISHIKAWA
22 hours ago, Mech-for-i said:

Pilot's own variation of the Fude is their Wavely WA nib , but that is so different vs Sailor's

 

Right. While Fude de Mannen and FA nib are designed for line variations (see the picture I have attached to this post), Wavely WA nib is designed for a completely different purpose. Actually one can argue for the opposite purpose. WA nib is designed for its consistent Japanese M  width line (any writer to write at any angle). 

画像_2021-03-18_193457.png

Edited by Naoki NISHIKAWA
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A Smug Dill
1 hour ago, Naoki NISHIKAWA said:

Actually one can argue for the opposite purpose. WA nib is designed for its consistent Japanese M  width line (any writer to write at any angle). 

 

That's my understanding as well, notwithstanding that the shape of the nib is bent upwards to achieve that design intention.

I endeavour to be frank and truthful in what I write, show or otherwise present, when I relate my first-hand experiences that are not independently verifiable; and link to third-party content where I can, when I make a claim or refute a statement of fact in a thread. If there is something you can verify for yourself, I entreat you to do so, and judge for yourself what is right, correct for valid. I may be wrong, and my position or say-so is no more authoritative and carries no more weight than anyone else's here.

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Naoki NISHIKAWA
49 minutes ago, A Smug Dill said:

That's my understanding as well, notwithstanding that the shape of the nib is bent upwards to achieve that design intention.

 

Fude (meaning a BRUSH in Japanese) de Mannen is designed to give you line variations as, in a sense,  what Pilot FA nib achieves thru a completely different approach, i.e. flex nib. Actually, in Japan, the most famous Fude-like FP is Pilot FA nib because of its line variations since the concept of Fude in Japanese language is associated with line variations and shadings, not with smoothness nor anything else. On the other hand, the Pilot WA nib is loved by left-handed writers, those who tend to rotate his/her pen while he/she writes, etc. because of its smoothness with the consistent line width... That is, it is considered "forgiving" to the writing angle variations.

atc_9784777936731_041.jpg

20150625153256.jpg

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A Smug Dill
6 minutes ago, Naoki NISHIKAWA said:

Actually, in Japan, the most famous Fude-like FP is Pilot FA nib because of its line variations since the concept of Fude in Japanese language is associated with line variations and shadings,

 

I thought it would have been the Pilot Elabo (https://www.pilot.co.jp/promotion/library/014/), if not Sailor's Fude de Mannen pen (because it's affordable for use as a drawing tool for artists of any level of experience and with any budget) or the upmarket 21K gold Naginata Fude de Mannen nib on Sailor pens.

I endeavour to be frank and truthful in what I write, show or otherwise present, when I relate my first-hand experiences that are not independently verifiable; and link to third-party content where I can, when I make a claim or refute a statement of fact in a thread. If there is something you can verify for yourself, I entreat you to do so, and judge for yourself what is right, correct for valid. I may be wrong, and my position or say-so is no more authoritative and carries no more weight than anyone else's here.

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Naoki NISHIKAWA
1 hour ago, A Smug Dill said:

I thought it would have been the Pilot Elabo (https://www.pilot.co.jp/promotion/library/014/), if not Sailor's Fude de Mannen pen (because it's affordable for use as a drawing tool for artists of any level of experience and with any budget) or the upmarket 21K gold Naginata Fude de Mannen nib on Sailor pens.

 

Ah! I have forgotten that one. Yeah, you must have been right in terms of the popularity. Another expensive FP comes to my mind is NAKAYA.

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