Am I The Only One Who Thinks There Is Too Much Hype Around Japase Pens?

[Larrabeiti]

Hello FP lovers,

I do not know if "Japan and Asia" is the best section to post this and make new friends, but here it goes.

I have been collecting pens for over 20 years, but I only started reading extensively about them on the internet 5 or 6 years ago. So in the past I used to collect Sheaffers (mostly), Parkers etc. I buy most of my pens second hand.

When I started reading so much praise on Japanese pens, I decided I had to buy some to try. Except for the Platinum #3776, my experience resumes in one word: Disappointment.

 

It is even worse because there are not many second hand Japanese pens in Spain and most of them were new.

 

Pens I have bought:

Pilot Capless - heavy, unbalance, clip between my fingers, not practical to fill... A horror of a pen. I gave it to a friend who really liked it a lot.

Pilot 74 - there was really nothing wrong with its fucntionality, but nothing outstanding either. And it is so damn ugly! When you make such a conventional design, at least it should not be unpleasant.

Pilot CH 912 FA nib. I keep this one because I only have two Flex nibs, but the plastic looks cheap. However, it is comfortable in the hand and smoother than other flex.

Sailor 1911 standard. Not that it is very small, but the heavy taper of the barrell made it sit uncomfortably in my hand. I never liked it, I sold it quickly.

Sailor 1911 large yellow. I still keep it because I have not tried it yet... But as the 912, the plastic looks surpisingly cheap for a pen of this price.

I also have two Sailor Maki-e that I bought 2nd hand at a great price. I have not used them nor I intend to. But they do not look in the flesh so gorgeous ans in the photographs.

 

I also have, and like a lot, two Platinum #3776. Soon after the 1st one, I bought the second.

But in Spain you can buy a second hand Waterman Carene for 70, the same price of a new #3776, and the Carene feels and writes better. Of course it is not fair to compare used with new, but that is what the market is in my country.

The Carene is only an example, of course. Other pens I like (Sheaffer Targa, Waterman Perspective, Parker 75) are in fact much cheaper second hand than that.

The advantage of the new pens is of course that you can choose the nib size. My #3776 are B and Music, whereas you usually only find F and M pens second hand.

 

Does anyone have a similar experience with Japanese pens?

Do the manufacturers feed the hype on the internet artificially?

 

Thanks for your feedback!

 

Mikel

[A Smug Dill]

Does anyone have a similar experience with Japanese pens?

Does that mean you only want to hear from those in the FPN community who share your sentiments and/or endorse your views? Or would hearing from 98 fans and 2 critics of Japanese fountain pens here be sufficient to make you feel you're not "the only one" and not alone, even if its still a minority position?

 

In my household, we have roughly 200 fountain pens, including Japanese, German, Italian, Chinese and Indian made models. (I may even have missed one or two countries of manufacture in that list). I put it in that order because that's the hierarchy in my mind. No brand and no country of manufacture is immune to poor business decisions, design flaws, manufacturing defects and quality control failures, of course; however, I'm generally least worried about encountering problems or defects buying Japanese fountain pens, and can trust what I'll be getting.

 

Pilot Capless

We have a dozen of those in different designs. We love them. A matte black Pilot Capless Vanishing Point served as my EDC for many years this decade while I still worked in an office. Filling the CON-50 converter is very easy, whether attached to the nib or not during the process.

 

Pilot 74

That's among my least favourite Japanese pen models, even compared to just other 'entry-level' gold-nibbed Japanese pen models such as the Platinum #3776 Century, and Sailor Profit Standard and Promenade models.

 

Pilot CH 912 FA nib

That's a piece of junk, I'd say. Mine ended up in the trash.

 

Sailor 1911 standard

Not my favourite form factor, but still better than the Pilot Custom 74, and perfectly usable.

 

Sailor 1911 large yellow

The pen body of that model was never meant to be any sort of premium material, any more than that on a Pelikan M20x is premium. I don't know how much you paid for that, but it's stlll a plain, entry-level pen (albeit in a larger form factor than the Sailor Profit Stsndard) in Japan.

 

I also have, and like a lot, two Platinum #3776. Soon after the 1st one, I bought the second.

I have eight Platinum #3776 pens in my pen folio right now, with a ninth on order and my fiancée has one too. The regular Platinum #3776 Century (Black on Black, Chartres Blue, Bourgogne, and even the new Laurel Green, Chenonceau White) and the Five Lakes and Nice models are not made of premium resin/material, although their manufacture is pretty good and consistent, and some of the patterns on the inside of the Five Lakes models are interesting. I'm much happier with my briar, celluloid, and kanazawa-haku Platinum #3776 models, and I'd be happy to challenge others to show me an equally well-made European fountain pen with a briar pen body for US$300.

 

But in Spain you can buy a second hand Waterman Carene for 70, the same price of a new #3776, and the Carene feels and writes better.

The price at which something is available to you, especially when influenced by taxes, import charges, and (price premiums due to) product availability where you are, is not the measure of quality of a pen. Even if I could get a well-made jacket for $50, it doesn't retrospectively mean that an equally well-made jacket that cost me $500 is therefore junk or over-hyped.

[JonSzanto]

Japan makes inexpensive consumer pens and expensive high-end pens. Japan makes very plain users as well as hand-made works of art that happen to be fountain pens. Japan, as a culture and country, probably still has a higher per-capita pen use statistic than most any other country - certainly higher than any Western country.

They know pens, they make pens of all kinds, and they are exemplary at it. Hype is mostly the fault of the buying public, as the marketing for these pens is certainly in line with any business that wants to promote their product.

I humble submit that the OP does not have enough experience or exposure to the Japanese pen world to call it into question regarding hype.

[jar]

I have heard, but it may not be true, that often there are opinions posted on the internet as though they were facts.

[Uncial]

I'd concur with you regarding materials. I was a little surprised to find the KOP Pro Gear has a very similar 'cheap' looking plastic as many other Sailor pens. That said, they sometimes get it spot on, although usually with limited edition and demonstrator type models. I find the Pro Gear Earth a pleasing finish and the Pent/Sailor collaboration for the Hemingway is good too. I find Sailor's M-F nibs to be very pleasing and generally go for that type, but I'm tempted to try a broad. I have their needlepoint and it is surprising how smooth something that tiny can be - it's not buttery smooth, but not scratchy and horrible either; quite different from what I honestly expected. Pilot's 823 is near perfection in my book and I enjoy their nibs more than Sailor's, but some of the models below that can indeed feel a bit 'plasticky' and 'cheap' and look a bit ugly.

For what you might pay in the US and parts of Europe they are over-priced. In some cases buying direct from Japan will net you the very same pen for literally half price. Even when you factor in customs duty (if your postal sorting office can read Japanese), the saving is still significant.

Generally though, I think many people here are chasing the nibs rather than the visual delights of the pens, which in many instances are a little dull and in some Sailor lines can have significant defects. I've no doubts of their robustness though. I guess I find the standard line up for Pilot and Sailor a bit utilitarian but personally I buy them for the nibs.

[mongrelnomad]

Yes you are.

 

IMO at all price points Japanese pens offer the best quality/price ratio, are the most reliable, and in the high end offer unrivaled artisanship.

 

You just dont like them, which is fair enough, but that doesnt make them overrated.

[putteringpenman]

Pilot pens are my favorite. Nearly 50% of my collection is Pilots. My Pilot Custom 823 is my favorite and my Pilot Vanishing Point is such a good daily carry. I also have a Platinum pen that writes really well, but the nib is too toothy for my writing style.

 

In my experience, most Japanese pens are fantastic. They are high quality, reliable writers.

 

We all have different preferences so stick with what makes you happy

[inkstainedruth]

I haven't tried most of the pens the OP has had experience with. I will say that I also found a Vanishing Point (Capless) to be too big and heavy a pen for me; OTOH, I have a Pilot Decimo with a fine rhodium plated 18k nib and it's a dream to write with. But I also have an older Pilot Saturn (made for the Korean market, possibly made IN Korea) and it's meh, and there's a crack in the nib collar.

One of my first pens was a Platinum Plaisir -- it writes extremely dry, IMO, and it was one of the older style pens with the color-matched nib (which turned out to be just a coating, which is now flaking off the nib. And, truthfully, the cap band is a little garish when seen in person. [My experience with that pen made me unwilling to get a similarly colored Decimo; and I had to get that on eBay from a seller in Japan to get the color I DID want (light grey) because Pilot's marketing people think it won't sell in the US for some stupid reason (up until last year they only sold the four "girly" colors here -- NONE of which I was all that enamored with; at least now they're selling the dark blue/navy in the US, which was my second choice preference). But it, like the Pilot Saturn, were not very expensive pens. I have a few Platinum Preppies, which came free with bottles of ink. They're currently set up with the roller ball head for a project; and well, they are what they are -- cheap pens I got for free.

I'm now looking at a Sailor Pro Gear Slim (Sapporo) because I discovered that there are a few of the Purple Cosmos LE pens still out there. Waffling over what nib to get -- because they *are* more expensive pens -- and there are only a finite number still available -- I can't just say "Well, I'll

just send it back and get the other nib I was considering" because I can't guarantee that I'll have that option. And I can't afford to say "Well, I'll get one of each" either.... As for the maki-e pens? Those fall into the catergory of "Even if I could afford one, they'd be 'look but don't touch' pens for me -- and that's an awful lot of money to pay for something I can't use and would end up being a really expensive trinket...." YMMV, but I don't normally buy LE pens just for that reason; the only pens I don't use are because they are vintage pens I haven't gotten fixed yet. And I don't tend to buy expensive pens: I have only two that are in the over $200 US price range, and the first few pens I've bought this year were older/vintage pens that I mostly paid under five bucks for, not including getting converters for some of them (but then, I'm also the one who paid under $75 for all of my Parker 51s -- not counting repairs on a few of the Vac fillers -- for all but two of them... And the most recent one was a $2 find at an estate sale last fall.... (I'm the the self-styled "Queen of Cheap" after all.... )

But truthfully -- I've had that issue with pretty much every brand of pen, new AND vintage. Some I liked, some I loved, and some were a disappointment. A lot of people, for instance, complain about the QC on Noodler's pens -- all of mine have been great, except for one of the Charlies (and it was free with a bottle of ink, so I can't really complain all that much). I have never noticed the smell on the "vegetal resin" pens either in spite of reading all the comments to the contrary. A lot of the vintage ones needed repairs. Some pens turned out to have scratchy nibs, or have hard starts. The diaphragm (which was a replacement from when I bought the pen a few summers ago at a pen show) on a Parker Vacumatic Green Shadow Wave just failed on me last week, and I ended up not only with ink all over the metal plunger, but ALSO inside the blind cap....

I don't think, Larrabeiti, that you can make waving general pronouncements about a brand or style of pen. And you certainly can't make them about the pens of an entire country (which has multiple manufacturers) when you are providing anecdotal evidence at best.

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

[JonSzanto]

I'd concur with you regarding materials. I was a little surprised to find the KOP Pro Gear has a very similar 'cheap' looking plastic as many other Sailor pens. That said, they sometimes get it spot on, although usually with limited edition and demonstrator type models. I find the Pro Gear Earth a pleasing finish and the Pent/Sailor collaboration for the Hemingway is good too. I find Sailor's M-F nibs to be very pleasing and generally go for that type, but I'm tempted to try a broad. I have their needlepoint and it is surprising how smooth something that tiny can be - it's not buttery smooth, but not scratchy and horrible either; quite different from what I honestly expected. Pilot's 823 is near perfection in my book and I enjoy their nibs more than Sailor's, but some of the models below that can indeed feel a bit 'plasticky' and 'cheap' and look a bit ugly.

For what you might pay in the US and parts of Europe they are over-priced. In some cases buying direct from Japan will net you the very same pen for literally half price. Even when you factor in customs duty (if your postal sorting office can read Japanese), the saving is still significant.

Generally though, I think many people here are chasing the nibs rather than the visual delights of the pens, which in many instances are a little dull and in some Sailor lines can have significant defects. I've no doubts of their robustness though. I guess I find the standard line up for Pilot and Sailor a bit utilitarian but personally I buy them for the nibs.

 

The absurdity of this is that you appear to be only responding to the most basic pen models that come out of Japan, completely ignoring many of the remarkable pens that go from just "more than cheap" to true works of art. Materials and techniques that are rarely seen elsewhere. When you look at some of the most sought-after LE pens from Pelikan, what do you find? Raden.

 

There are Japanese pens to suit all tastes and budgets. Taking a look at only one part of the market is willful ignorance. As far as costs, one might be better off taking into account what the costs are in-country, as every imported object is going to be more expensive from the start. If that wasn't the case, there wouldn't be such great interest in grey market items.

[Lloyd]

 

Pilot Capless - heavy, unbalance, clip between my fingers, not practical to fill... A horror of a pen. I gave it to a friend who really liked it a lot.

So, who's right...you or your friend? Perhaps there's no right or wrong in subjective assessments of unnecessary goods. To me, vanilla is a very over-hyped flavor of ice cream; compared to chocolate ice cream, which costs the same amount, vanilla is "meh".

[zaddick]

I have not seen Japanese pen manufacturers feeding or creating hype on FPN. It is us as users who talk pens up to no end based on preferences, real and perceived value, etc. If anything I find it surprising that most info I get is from users posting adverts from magazines or pen fair flyers.

 

I prefer larger pens with exotic nibs so most of the entry level pens of the world do not excite me. They do, however, seem to be well built and affordable. There are plenty of non-Japanese pens for which I could not say the same. Should you find different that is great news as we each expand the market with unique demand and create and opportunity for more pens to exist in the hands of users.

[inkstainedruth]

So, who's right...you or your friend? Perhaps there's no right or wrong in subjective assessments of unnecessary goods. To me, vanilla is a very over-hyped flavor of ice cream; compared to chocolate ice cream, which costs the same amount, vanilla is "meh".

 

And of course there's the difference between "vanilla" and "vanilla". A generic brand vanilla ice cream is not going to be as good as a super-premium made with real vanilla beans. But is also going to be way less expensive. (Any more, I'm willing to pay more for a pint of Ben & Jerry's -- a super premium brand, because it's going to be more interesting and taste better; but I'm not likely to get vanilla ice cream, regardless -- even from them...).

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

[Larrabeiti]

Hello everyone,

 

Thank you for your replies.

 

Excuse me if I do not answer individually, but I am writing on my mobile and besides the language by default is Spanish.

Before I go on, I would like to point out that I like Japanese culture, I started to study the language, I have been in Japan twice and I really enjoyed the country. I even bow at the office, something _absolutely_ nobody else does.

 

To the question of whether I only want to read the comments of people who think like me, or the 98 / 2%, I just want to mention the title of my post: "Am I the only one". That means I have already read much praise, and I know already that my opinion is marginal.

 

About really expensive pens, really I cannot judge nor I intend to. The highest amount I paid for a pen is 180E for a Sheaffer patent commemorative. The Sailor 1911 large cost me 125E (which I accepted to pay because it was yellow and B nib), and the 2 maki-e came in for 260E the pair, shipping included. So obviously I cannot judge about 1000E+ beautifully laquered works of art.

 

About my writing style being too assertive, I totally agree with you. I intended to be a little provoking. But some of you might want to read your own replies then...

Of course pens are just a hobby and nobody is right nor wrong when they judge one. It's like talking about music or sports.

 

I also agree with you that the Japanese pens are reliable (at least so far, because I do not seem to keep them all that long...) I am currently on a Waterman fever and I am fed up with leaking pens from the 60's, the 70's, the 80's, the 90's and even the 00"s. I always have stained fingers. Japanese pens did not do that to me (nor Sheaffers nor Parkers nor Pelikans nor Montblancs, at least not _all the time_).

 

And then we come to the heart of the matter: the nib. Me too, when I buy a pen, I buy a nib. Well, not only: I also consider that ergonomics are fundamental on a pen: size, shape, weight, and balance (weight distribution).

Disappointment reflects the distance between your expectation and what you get (including how much you paid, and what you like in general). So me being a person who likes Japan, and having read all that praise about Japanese nibs, I surely expected too much from them. And... none of my Japanese pens so far have a nib that I have fallen in love with. They have not lived up to my expectations.

 

In my own personal experience, or according to my own individual taste, or in my humble opinion, or whatever way you want to write it, there are other nibs that make me feel "wow, I had forgotten how great this pen is" whenever I ink them again, and all my Japanese pens have failed to do so.

Examples: Sheaffer Targa (very consistently), Legacy & Crest, Waterman Super 6 (two out of 3 are cadidates for the title of "best nib in my collection") & Carene (2 pens out of 2, including what is probably my best F nib), Montegrappa (3 pens out of 3) and Omas Tokyo (did I say Tokyo?).

 

Anyway I got my answer: "Am I the only one?" - yes, in general; although some of you also find the plastics cheap and the Vanising Point uncomfortable.

And also "Do Japanese manufacturers feed the hype?" - No (unlike Pelikan or Ranga or TWSBI, who do seem to feed the hype).

 

Doumo arigatou gozaimashita! (bow)

Edited March 27, 2019 by Larrabeiti

[Driften]

You like what you like. Maybe vintage nibs are what turns you on. Many, not all, Japanese nibs like most modern nibs tend to be hard. It could be that is just not your thing. If so, stick with what you enjoy. I enjoy nails as well as semi-flex nibs. It's good to stick to a budget, but it limits you from trying something like a Pilot 823 which is one of my favorite Japanese pens. That pen is a real step above the 74, 91, and 92 models, to me. I've never had a 912 so can't compare to that.

 

I also know that my Sailor 1911 Large or Realo is not a replacement for my Montblanc 146.

 

Stick with what you like and don't worry about what people think.

[TSherbs]

My Pilot 74 is my best pen, IMO.

[essayfaire]

One of the things I love most about Japanese pens is that since fountain pens are ubiquitous in Japan, there are decent inexpensive pens available (e.g. Platinum Preppy, Pilot Varsity, the Petit...). All of these pens are much cheaper and write much better than fountain pens found in office supply stores in the U.S. (if you can locate a non-calligraphy FP at all). The basic products are good. I'd much rather write with a cheap Japanese pen than the ballpoints at Target.

 

 

Pilot Capless - heavy, unbalance, clip between my fingers, not practical to fill... A horror of a pen. I gave it to a friend who really liked it a lot.

 

 

 

I love the Capless! Clickety, click! I agree that it's a pain to fill, but I like it so much I don't mind.

 

I like the Sailor 1911 slim model as well - I'm partial to fine nibs, and I find it balances very well in my hand.

 

I do have non-Japanese pens which I am also fond of - but I buy my pens to use them and I find I use the Japanese pens more on a regular basis. I also prefer pens with quiet styling, and there are plenty of Japanese options on that front.

De gustibus non est disputandum!

 

[Uncial]

The absurdity of this is that you appear to be only responding to the most basic pen models that come out of Japan, completely ignoring many of the remarkable pens that go from just "more than cheap" to true works of art. Materials and techniques that are rarely seen elsewhere. When you look at some of the most sought-after LE pens from Pelikan, what do you find? Raden.

 

There are Japanese pens to suit all tastes and budgets. Taking a look at only one part of the market is willful ignorance. As far as costs, one might be better off taking into account what the costs are in-country, as every imported object is going to be more expensive from the start. If that wasn't the case, there wouldn't be such great interest in grey market items.

The 'absurdity' of my reply was to give some examples of pens I own and enjoy, somewhat similar and more or less in the same bracket as those mentioned in the OP. I hadn't realised you expected a full summary of every Japanese pen ever made. I'm no longer sure which post is more absurd.

[Bounce792]

This thread is somewhat pointless. Guy comes here asking for an echo chamber, admits to phrasing his words in a way to provoke Japanese pen fans, and then takes issue when some respond with similar provocativeness. OP wasn't looking for facts, help or suggestions. He was looking for bias confirmation.

[Lloyd]

This thread is somewhat pointless.

I disagree. It's point is to trigger infighting amongst those who like to bicker.

[gyasko]

Larrabeiti, i too find them a little oversold on the internet. Not by the makers, but more by breathless and over-caffienated new adopters of Pilot Metros and Capless pens. I can agree that Japanese pens are on average well-made, and the QC on the nibs is excellent. Nagahara-sensei was a remarkably skilled craftsman, as were the other Sailor nib guys that i met. On top of that, i've lived many years in Japan (though, sadly, not at present) and a have a life-long connection to and love for the place.

 

And yet, i'm not really into Japanese pens.

 

I have a few, of course -- I have a lot of pens. It's just that like zaddick, i'm into broad stubs & obliques and these aren't really where the Japanese makers excel. Yes, there are a few and i've tried them, but i haven't liked them. Japanese stubs and music nibs and even some broads want me to write at a higher angle than i like to use. These pens are uncomfortable for me to use. Even some Japanese feel the same way. While in Japan i met people who really loved flat cut vintage German pens and they got me into vintage German pens.

 

I do like Japanese fine and extra-fines which i use for editing. I would say the best Japanese fine nibs are on par with the nibs from Sheaffer and Parker's glory days. They're workaday nibs that get the job done with a minimum of fuss. Being able to churn out high-quality nibs consistently is a remarkable achievement in quality control, but for a someone who's been around the block a few times with pens, the actual product, i.e., another fine or extra-fine is not that exciting.

 

I will say that it's nice that the Japanese makers, especially Pilot offer a good variety of nibs beyond the standard widths. I enjoy the soft nibs available on the Pilot 74 and some other Pilots. They feel great and make the task of correcting and editing a little more fun.

 

All the fancy stuff with pen bodies that they do in Japan is of little interest to me. In fact, i dislike maki-e. Just give me a black pen with a double broad stub.