Is It The Nib Or The Feed? (Or: Why Are Feeds Presumed Innocent?)

[WillN]

Good tips, but been there done them. It's been soaked in Windex, rinsed and rubbed a couple of times. The 'oil contamination' did stop me cold. Windex (ammonia) is a good degreaser. It's out of the pen, no oil. But I should be more deliberate about degreasing with a new nib.

I'm now pretty confident that the feed can't supply enough ink to keep up with my writing. I'm quick, but not that quick. It's sort of like, the body sends ink to the Reservoir, where it's then sent to the Slit-feed and the Fins, but the Fns/Slit-feed go dry before they can re-fill... Since posting this I carved out the reservoir a bit, but no change. 'Goulet' customer services punted, told me TWSBI #5s are a bit different. I pulled out my calipers. The measurements were all the same. So I've just gone back to my TWSBI 1.1 mm stub nib. I've ground it to a very bootleg italic which I really like. The Goulet 1.4 mm stub is very wide and very narrow, if it worked it would be really cool.

 

 

Thanks

[senzen]

In general it's lack of experience and patience: it's easy to bang a nib on a piece of paper. Most of the problems I've had were solved by cleaning the pen and paying attention to any debris in the feed.

[TheDutchGuy]

...It starts out wet, then gets less wet, then dries out and stops. I can get it going again, but it won't go as far before drying out. When it's dry, it's like a new pen to get the ink flowing. If when it's still writing, I set it aside for a while, it'll start out wet again. So I'm pretty sure it's a feed problem. It's like the ink in the body isn't filling up the reservoir faster than the ink is writing to the paper.

 

I've seen this happen myself in more than one (new) pen. Quite frustrating. However, it also kick-started my fountain pen learning curve.

 

What I appreciate about this discussion is that it looks at the whole ink journey, not just at the final stage of it (the nib). Some diagnostic thinking is in order before tinkering with a nib. If you dip a pen into a bottle and the pen writes nice and wet after removing the excess ink with a tissue, then it's not the nib. In which case it is either the feed or the ink reservoir or both. With C/C pens, you can find out if it is the feed or the reservoir. If it is the reservoir, then usually there are surface tension issues. Anyway, it can be a frustrating journey but in most cases the problem can be solved. There are many tricks. Cool heads prevail.

[Bo Bo Olson]

I am so glad I buy old used pens, from back in the day when a problem pen was taken back to the fabled Corner Pen Shoppe and either cured there or sent to the factory.

 

This has been an interesting read, and there is more problems with feeds than I expected. About all I know is the flexier the nib the faster the feed has to be....which is why real old pens have no to very little buffering. (One should mark exactly where the nib sits (and feed) before yanking them apart....Mauricio says it takes a hell of a lot of fiddling to get a nib and feed to sit perfectly to get 100% of the nib....but he deals with superflex nibs. But still, it's something I keep in mind for if and when, which I don't expect I have to take a nib and feed out of the pen.

 

In the feed was a major problem way back in the day of the Parker Lucky S.....and I was surprised that there can still be problems with the feeds.

[WillN]

I agree this is an interesting topic. I 'solved' my problem by removing the Goulet 1.4mm nib and reinstalling my TWSBI 1.1mm stub--that I ground (brutally) into an italic. It works exactly the same as it did before. I think this is a very nice nib, but until the feed problem is resolved, it's unusable. Goulet basically blew me off saying " they are slightly off in terms of size, so it might look like the Goulet nib is a good fit, but it's not sealing as much as it should on the feed and therefore causing the issues you're encountering. We really can't advise on any of the modifications you're looking to do, I'm sorry about that!" A cop out. I measured with calipers, they are the same. I checked the 'fit' it too is the same.

To frame the topic. These I believe are the factors: Nib-Draw (how much ink does a particular nib lay down) which is affected by the Paper, the Ink (primarily viscosity, but also how rapidly it dries out), how fast the user writes (a slower writer is not as like to starve the feed as a faster writer. Are you carefully writing neat notes, or manically writing notes in a lecture?)

A wet writer is preferred by some... but no one wants a pen that skips or just stops. What I've observed is often my writing starts out a bit too wet, then gets a bit drier... Ideally a pen should be more consistent. My margin notes tend to be wet and sometimes I can't read later what I've written.) But then I'll sit down and fill up 20-30 pages of A4. My DIY Journals are now Tomoe River which is wonderful paper, but notes, print outs, drafts... are all standard 20 lb laser Jet--which wicks more. And margin notes in books the paper is usually even more wicking than laser jet.

 

The short answer is: For margin notes in books and on print-outs: just use a fine point (dummy!) I have a LAMY F with Noodler's Nikita krasnyy. It's always 'right' (which is why I feel like a dummy). So I just need another F for margin notes.

Tomoe River is interesting. Unless I'm wrong, a very smooth, less wicking, paper like this self-regulates, so wet or dry nib/pen it doesn't spread out.

 

The long answer is: New nib, new ink, new paper.... test: Start writing. Is it wet or dry? Keep writing. Does it get drier? Is this a problem? (Blobs to just right). After a few pages is it still 'right' or getting dry? And does it dry out?

The metric for feed starvation is to take a pen that has this problem. Begin writing normally in your journal. How far did you get? Measure pages and time. This is your speed. Then you can take the same pen, get it back to the same condition as when you started the journal (fill it, let it sit a bit after it's well started) Then take a page of A4/letter and just make lines, all the way across, then another just below it.... repeat this until it goes dry. How many lines? What is the length? This is the Distance to Dry.

 

Your time and distance to dry determines your writing speed. (D/T=S). Ideally a technician should be able to take that pen, nib, ink combination-- after eliminating issues like clogs, dried ink, misalignments...-- and know whether to adjust the tines, the feed, or something else.

 

If a pen starts out too wet. Then the front part of the nib/feed is perhaps holding too much ink. If it dries out than the barrel/cartridge>>Reservoir>>Feed is not transferring ink to match your writing speed.

 

Someone mentioned something about dentist wax or clay to hold a feed while working on it. I misinterpreted this as being use to slow down a too fast feed. I thought tiny drop of superglue in the middle of the reservoir. it wouldn't be that difficult to carve down as needed... but all this is wrong. A reservoir is a Volume the slit down past the air hole to the tines is a Rate, as is the split between the tines.

 

All of this is above my knowledge or experience. For pen techs, helping customers to understand they need a range of pens might be good for business. For me that would be 1. Tomoe River Journal, 2&3. Margin notes F, red and blue (I never use black, all that laser printing is already black) 4. Note taking on laster paper. And of course a few back ups, specialty pens... (no one should tell a mug like me to get a flex nib, they're cute and real smart: like poodles, but I'm not going to slow down or practice copperplate... A stub nib is what you need Homer Simpson.) So, contact X, they'll ask you some questions. Then X will sell you an inexpensive pen at double retail...but you will write with it answer a few more questions, X may adjust that pen or sell you another.... And X will give you some practice sheets to improve your handwriting, but not waste your time turning you into a calligrapher. $400 later, you will have four pens, replacement value about $100 and you will be happily getting all the value out of your set of fountain pens.

 

If you're still reading this, do what I should be doing: stop right now and get back to what you're supposed to be doing.

The more I understand fountain pens the less likely am I to ever spend $400 on a Pelikan. I've had Pelikans in the past. I loved 'em, and lost a really expensive one (I got for a low price). When I had my Pelikan, I just used it, never wondered about other pens. But then I lost the expensive one, so I bought a cheap one, still good, but it leaked. Bought another, it leaked... Now I've learned so much I have a drawer full of Pilots, Nemosines, TWSBIs, one $120 flex (I never use). Maybe monogamy with a costly Pelikan was the answer, or maybe I just didn't know better.

Edited January 31, 2019 by WillN

[Bo Bo Olson]

I'm lucky, I don't have a pen that dries out....or grows progressively dryer.....the advantage of old pens mostly with the original nibs, matching what ever feed was in that era.

 

I do use classic inks........only having a few supersaturated inks....so am not of help to changing nibs on feeds. The only suggestion I can get is slowly and carefully keep deepening the channels or otehr ink flow parts of the feed until it writes with that ink.

 

I do feel trying wetter or more lubricated ink could help, and be tried first.

 

I went from Waterman Blue a nice safe ink to DA Royal Blue because it was darker because it was more lubricated...not necessary wetter. Perhaps more saturated also.

I do lack experience chasing wetter or more lubricated inks, in I like two tone shading inks.

[sansenri]

The TS is right.

There are hard rubber feeds (ebonite) and ABS feeds.

The hard rubber feeds are drilled 1 by 1 and costly to produce. It is difficult to have a uniform quality, but when they are OK they work perfectly.

The ABS feeds are produced in a mold by great quantities and are cheap. They have a uniform quality, except when there is a tiny little minuscule particule that remains in the feed and escapes to the even minutious control with a loupe. This happens even in the first rate brands. Even when they test each nib-feed unit, there is always a pen that writes perfectly 3 lines and starts skipping the 4th rapidly written line, escaping the quality control.

Replacement is easy and cheap, but the culprit is indeed frequently overlooked and the poor consumer starts erroneously to damage the nib in a vain attempt to correct the flow.

 

This actually makes sense to me.

Modern plastic feeds are made to work with the nib they will be coupled with. Sometimes they don't.

I also do experience a great difference in flow between the same pen with CC system o ED system.

You can experience this with some Indian pens.

Some Indian pens come as CC system, but you can take out the converter and use the pen as ED.

When you do however the ink still goes through the same feed (nib-feed-collar group, like Bock or Jowo)

Is flow different? not really.

The same pen can be had as ED system but with a friction fit nib and an ebonite feed.

Is the flow different? You bet it is. Much more generous!

So is it the ED system or the ebonite feed? I'm really partial to the latter.

I have no scientific explanation (larger surface, deeper channel, different surface tension of the ebonite feed) I don't know.

What I experience is a different flow.

[Ron Z]

 

 

It's been soaked in Windex, rinsed and rubbed a couple of times. The 'oil contamination' did stop me cold. Windex (ammonia) is a good degreaser.

 

Maybe, but not good for fountain pens, especially vintage. The "other stuff" in Windex can kill celluloid. I had a perfectly good celluloid OS Balance section go from nice and clean to granulated sugar over night after contact with Windex. It literally crumbled. That fast.

[WillN]

TheDutchGuy! Thanks. I tried Kodak Photo-Flo 200. The most bootleg test possible. I put a tiny drop in a disposable cup and sucked it into my still almost full TWSBI. Shook it a little, topped it off with a bit more Noodlers Polar Blue.

It seems to work really well. I can't get it to even skip. There's not much Photo-Flo in the pen but the ink and the line on the page has a very distinctive Photo-Flo smell (like good blowing-bubbles). Preliminary results seem to indicate near magical properties. I can make a wavy line as fast as I can move my hand, no problem, no breaks. I was able to get a few skips with this ink, nib combo. The ink color looks the same, it might be a little more wet...but not at a problem level. Great tip. Thanks. The toothpick/ 0.5 mL method indicates very little is needed. I think just dipping the nib tip into an ink specific container (it will color it) of Photo-Flo before filling should work.

I'm also tempted to try the 1.4mm nib again.

 

RonZ: Windex unless I'm wrong, is recommended for the TWSBI plastics (I have mostly demonstrator bodies). Alcohol is a no-no.

Edited February 1, 2019 by WillN

[surprise123]

To make a feed wetter, I put on my glasses, sit down, clamp up the feed (gently, with lots of cushioning), and trace the main and secondary channels with a fresh x-acto razor.

[TheDutchGuy]

TheDutchGuy! Thanks. I tried Kodak Photo-Flo 200. ... It seems to work really well

 

Glad to be of some assistance, WillN. Photo-Flo is not my product of choice, it works (as you've noticed), but watch out with it. Minute amounts are required. Folks dip wooden toothpicks in Photo-Flo, dry them with a Kleenex, then immerse the toothpick in a bottle of ink. That's what I mean with "minute amounts". Overdo it, and ink will leak right out of your pen.

[lurcho]

To make a feed wetter, I put on my glasses, sit down, clamp up the feed (gently, with lots of cushioning), and trace the main and secondary channels with a fresh x-acto razor.

 

I'm fascinated by people who take a knife to a feed because I've never done it successfully, but I'd love to be able to tweak a feed. I think it's a great idea, especially with cheap ABS feeds that you can practise on.

 

Would you mind saying a little more about what you do?

[dneal]

 

And just how critical are the fins? I've screwed them up on some pens and it doesn't seem to matter. What I've observed is that 95% of the time if the fins are holding ink, it's way up under the nib where it can't be seen. The outer parts of the fins we can see only seem to hold ink when I push ink through from the body or dip it in a bottle.

The fins are a buffer for excess ink to collect on. They simply provide more surface area. As the ink reservoir depletes, and the ratio of air to ink in the reservoir increases; the pen is more susceptible to “burping” ink due to temperature changes and expanding air forcing ink out. This excess ink collects temporarily in the fins. On older feeds with fewer to no fins, or on feeds where people have been hacking at the fins; the excess ink collects on the paper, in the cap, or other unwanted places.

[Ron Z]

Ron Z: Windex unless I'm wrong, is recommended for the TWSBI plastics (I have mostly demonstrator bodies). Alcohol is a no-no.

 

TWSBI is an inexpensive pen, with a modern plastic. You may get away with it on a TWSBI, but you also need to know your materials before recommending a product for general use. Based on nearly 30 years of experience, I do not recommend using Windex on pens, and (as said in my post above) especially vintage pens.

[The-Thinker]

One interesting way to test a feed I saw in a TWSBI manufacturing video. take the tail of the feed and dip it into some ink that is very visible, I use noodlers white of the whale. capillary action should literally draw the ink all the way up the feed. if it slows hugely or stops anywhere, you've got a problem with the feed. I did this to diagnose a faulty feed in my first VAC700R. But out of all my pens, that is the ONLY one that has ever had a dud feed.

 

I agree with driften that a faulty interaction with the converter is likely an issue there. A converter can really make a pen not work properly, which is why eyedropper and other self-filler pens just seem to keep up with super juicy and flex nibs better than C.C's

 

If you have to prime it constantly, you have a problem with the feed or the converter or where the two meet. But it's also important to temper expectations. The super, super juicy line I usually crave from the C nib in my 3776 is just never going to be inherently part of the feed's capability, So I prime that pen every 10-20 minutes of use. That's inherently part of the feed's flow. but there's nothing wrong with the feed, it never skips or stops flowing or burps ink, it's just not as wet as I usually want it.

I had been reading this thread ! Was wondering why don’t you modify the feed in this case ? Is it because you are afraid of messing it up ? Would deepening the feed channel reach your desired result ( I have a similar issue )

[TheDutchGuy]

Is it because you are afraid of messing it up ? Would deepening the feed channel reach your desired result ( I have a similar issue )

 

Making physical changes to a feed certainly might mess it up. With easily replaceable feeds like standard, affordable Jowo or Bock nib/feed/collar units, that doesn’t have to be a problem. With the original feed of (say) a vintage MB 149, it’s a totally different matter. Deepening the channel _might_ make a feed wetter, i.e. leading to ink flooding the fins and thereby making sure that the nib is always offered the maximum amount of ink. Whether or not this mod will work depends on what the actual problem is. If there are surface tension issues in the converter, it might not help. Etc. And widening the channel is a one-way street. What’s gone is gone, unless you want to experiment with stuff like candle wax.

[Thymen]

Don't know if this link has been presented here before, but I found it quite informative:

 

https://fountainpendesign.wordpress.com/

 

There is a section of feed design:

 

https://fountainpendesign.wordpress.com/the-feed/feed-supply-ink-function-foutain-pen/

Edited May 31, 2020 by Thymen