Experiments With Flex

[AAAndrew]

I don't know if it makes a difference, but the side slits on a steel dip pen are made before they "round" the nib, while it is still a flat piece of steel.

 

I've seen modders who do make cut-outs on the side, which is roughly the same idea but just more extreme, probably because a simple slit may not get you the needed relief in the thicker, less springy stainless steel used in fountain pen nibs.

[Pen Engineer]

On 5/7/2020 at 5:52 AM, Eusorph said:

I have a question. Looking at my calligraphy nibs, I see a very simple method being used to add flex and I am just wondering if this has been tried on fountain pen nibs and to what degree of success. Many of the best calligaphy nibs simply have two slits cut above the shoulders of the nibs, near the tine. Just two simple cuts and flexy magic happen.

 

the amount of bending, flexing of the tines depends on the length of steel material from the hole to the open end (before they go over into the round portion of the nib) of the tines.  The shorter, the more bending.  There is a limit.  When this length gets too short, the steel goes into plastic deformation... end of flex.

[Pen Engineer]

On 5/8/2020 at 5:13 PM, Eusorph said:

 

Thank you. Considering that the cut is still used nowadays on calligraphy nibs, I think it does what it is supposed to do. I just wish some of the people here, with the tools to do it, would try the cut and repost on the results. I'd do it, but I don't have the tools.

It has been done, early in this forum, however, instead of slits, they ground "scallops" along the outside edge.  From a technical point, they have the same effect.

[Pen Engineer]

On 5/8/2020 at 5:15 PM, Eusorph said:

 

I don't have the knowledge to do it. Also, Kanwrite flex nibs don't have any vent holes, so the model doesn't apply. Also, also, I would prefer a real life test on a nib from Kanwrite, that already has a long slit, to know for sure.

You can drill a hole at the end of the slit.  Remarkable result.

[AAAndrew]

And to add to this, I've now found out specifically what kind of steel the old dip pens were made out of. 

 

Pretty much all steel pens made up until WWI in both the US and the UK were made of what used to be called Cast Steel, but was later named Crucible Steel from Sheffield. This came in various grades and they used the top grade, made from Swedish iron ingots. 

 

This was a very expensive steel, but was so highly prized by tool makers that they continued to use it on tools with a cutting edge (like chisels, plane blades, etc...) until it finally went completely away in the early 1950's. The same qualities that made it so desirable for tool makers also made it the perfect steel for pens. When properly tempered, cast or crucible steel is a dense, fine steel with superior flexibility and spring. The crystalline structure is consistent and that consistency is what helps give it that wonderful balance between flexibility and strength, even when very, very thin. 

 

Crucible steel was not as cheap as Bessemer, it required a very time-consuming and labor-intensive process to make, but the quality was worth it when the need demanded. 

 

To read more about how steel pens were made, subscribe to the Pennant, the journal of the Pen Collectors of America. My next article(s) will describe this process in detail. 

 

To learn more about how cast steel was made, this website is quite helpful. Crucible steel - the small workshop

[txomsy]

Thank you AAAndrew for that interesting post.

 

As for nibs with side slits, lookup "Mallat 50 nib" in eBay. They do exist. Problem with these I mention, is that they are not exactly a #5, having a rear end that is thinner than that and a forward end that is somewhat wider. But they are neat anyway and lots of fun.

[Grayspoole]

Thanks for the fascinating information on crucible steel, AAAndrew, and the link to the excellent smallworkshop.co.uk site. The history of the technological and material expertise that lie behind the performance of a vintage dip pen nib really explains why they work so beautifully as writing instruments.

[bobje]

Fascinating indeed, Andrew. Modifying a Pilot steel nib from a Metropolitan made me realize some of the difference in steel quality. It was workable and forgiving, for lack of a better term. 

[SpecTP]

anyone have pens from this vendor, BlueDew Pens? https://www.bluedewpens.com/shop/p/nibs

 

I ordered a few nibs and am looking forward to trying them out

[MarioR81]

On 12/18/2020 at 10:12 AM, bobje said:

Fascinating indeed, Andrew. Modifying a Pilot steel nib from a Metropolitan made me realize some of the difference in steel quality. It was workable and forgiving, for lack of a better term. 

Do the pilot steel nib has a quick "snap back"?

I'm looking for a very fine nib that can give me some line variation when writing quickly, like a dip pen. Not like those super fat lines people do when showing off vintage flex.

[bobje]

Mario,

my modification was for an italic nib, so I’m not sure how a scallop mod would affect a Pilot Metropolitan nib. 

[MarioR81]

thanks anyway Bob. Which nib do you think could be modified to be closer to a dip nib effect? In terms of snapback

[dipper]

Attached is a .pdf table of the downward force needed to flex some dip-pen nib tines open to a width of 1.5mm.

 

The values are measurements I made a few years ago on some of my collection of dip pen nibs.

 

1.5mm parallel lines were marked on the top of a screw lid of a very old Quink bottle (hard smooth and slippery). Bottle and lid placed on digital kitchen scales, tared to zero. Pen pressed down onto lid and dragged slowly to break "stiction", whilst adjusting force applied by hand until the pen tine tips bent outwards to match width of the 1.5mm lines. (I think my wrist was supported on a pile of books next to the scales). I recal going rather cross-eyed reading both the digital weight display and monitoring the pen's tine spread width at the same time.

Results were repeatable to around +/-10%. That was adequate accuracy to categorise and separate out the pens having different degrees of flex.

 

If a pen name is repeated in the attached table that is because I found some samples from that box of pens deviated from the others.

 

Purpose of the test was to find a measurable stiffness value that suited my pen drawing style, and then modify the flex of any dip pen to give that same value.

 

 

my_dip_pens_flexdata.pdf

[txomsy]

That is interesting. Thank you so much.

 

It reminded me of some other posts where people made similar measurements of fountain pen nibs. The goal of objectively defining what flex is has become sort of a holy grail. For the sake of completion, I've searched some other compilations and add here some links.

 

In English:

https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/topic/293267-measuring-flexibility-a-proposal/

 

https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/topic/291773-rigidity-index-a-simple-method-to-evaluate-the-flexibility-of-a-nib/

 

https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/topic/291773-rigidity-index-a-simple-method-to-evaluate-the-flexibility-of-a-nib/

 

In french:

http://stylo-plume.org/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=6740&sid=395a7d3261975c8dd371898081c82ef1

 

http://stylo-plume.org/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=6607

 

In Italilan:

http://forum.fountainpen.it/viewtopic.php?f=80&t=6933

 

In Spanish:

https://estilograficas.mforos.com/2126518/11401902-se-puede-definir-con-objetividad-la-flexibilidad-de-un-plumin/?pag=2

 

https://issuu.com/smc-croma/docs/flexologia_spanish_v1.0_

 

 

 

[Detman101]

On 12/27/2020 at 1:27 PM, SpecTP said:

anyone have pens from this vendor, BlueDew Pens? https://www.bluedewpens.com/shop/p/nibs

 

I ordered a few nibs and am looking forward to trying them out

Did you receive your Nibs?
I also ordered a pair of them and received them a month later.
I am interested in knowing your thoughts on them.

[SpecTP]

On 2/12/2021 at 11:30 AM, Detman101 said:

Did you receive your Nibs?
I also ordered a pair of them and received them a month later.
I am interested in knowing your thoughts on them.

 

 I did receive the nibs. I am currently playing with them. I have them mounted on my Namisu pens. they are very flexible and take quite a light touch.

 

[Detman101]

3 minutes ago, SpecTP said:

 

 I did receive the nibs. I am currently playing with them. I have them mounted on my Namisu pens. they are very flexible and take quite a light touch.

 

Splendid!
Unfortunately, I was very disappointed with the performance of the nibs.
Having never tried "un-tipped" nibs before, this was quite a shocking experience in scratchiness and the tines getting stuck in the paper on anything but a downstroke. I did love the absolute hair-thin lines that the nibs produced and the level of Flex was PHENOMENAL!!!
But getting stuck in the paper was a deal-breaker...

Needless to say, this experiment has been put away until I have a dedicated pen to practice "Dip-Pen" style writing with. My main pens will stay with their regular/usual flex nibs.

[SpecTP]

1 hour ago, Detman101 said:

Splendid!
Unfortunately, I was very disappointed with the performance of the nibs.
Having never tried "un-tipped" nibs before, this was quite a shocking experience in scratchiness and the tines getting stuck in the paper on anything but a downstroke. I did love the absolute hair-thin lines that the nibs produced and the level of Flex was PHENOMENAL!!!
But getting stuck in the paper was a deal-breaker...

Needless to say, this experiment has been put away until I have a dedicated pen to practice "Dip-Pen" style writing with. My main pens will stay with their regular/usual flex nibs.

 

I did noticed the tines sticking on some paper, but not on tomoe paper.

[mrsharkbait]

How does the BlueDew nib compare to the Zebra G nib?

[Grayspoole]

17 hours ago, Detman101 said:

Splendid!
Unfortunately, I was very disappointed with the performance of the nibs.
Having never tried "un-tipped" nibs before, this was quite a shocking experience in scratchiness and the tines getting stuck in the paper on anything but a downstroke. I did love the absolute hair-thin lines that the nibs produced and the level of Flex was PHENOMENAL!!!
But getting stuck in the paper was a deal-breaker...

Needless to say, this experiment has been put away until I have a dedicated pen to practice "Dip-Pen" style writing with. My main pens will stay with their regular/usual flex nibs.

 

16 hours ago, SpecTP said:

 

I did noticed the tines sticking on some paper, but not on tomoe paper.

 

 

These look very similar to the Zebra or vintage dip pen nibs that I have turned into Frankenpens on occasion with good results.

 

When you are ready to try again, I would second SpecTP’s suggestion to use a very smooth paper—Tomoe, Rhodia, Clairefontaine or, to a lesser degree, something like HP Premium 32 lb.

 

Dip pens are typically held at a shallower angle to the paper so try modifying your grip to accomplish this.

 

And finally, a little careful smoothing on Micro-Mesh, Arkansas stone, or another fine abrasive may help.  The nib is not tipped, after all.