Italic Calligraphy, Not For Beginers?

[ksm]

[Sandy1]

Hi,

 

I may well be the least qualified to answer specifics, but ...

 

I reckon a person should have a go at their ideal, (shoot for the moon), to figure out what is beyond their competence, then work on that.

> While I thought I was a pretty good swimmer (hadn't drowned), after taking lessons for swimming in open water, things were so much better.

 

Perhaps the biggest challenge for those new to FPs, let alone shaped nibs, is to develop a manner of writing that is contrary to their legacy mechanics and muscle memory ingrained after using other implements, such as BPs. As such I certainly support a more gradual step-wise approach.

> For example, I write in an irregular (quirky) script, and do so with a brisk light hand using firm/rigid nibs, so for me to fully exploit flexi nibs, attaining a manner of writing that fully exploits those nibs is quite a challenge.

 

As ever, I await those far more learned and experienced to contribute to this Topic.

 

Bye,

S1

Edited May 22, 2016 by Sandy1

[Cryptos]

Just do what you want. Pick a good book, some online video resources and get stuck in. I picked up a dip pen at the end of last year, never tried it before. While I am still much the beginner I rather enjoy the challenge, and I am getting better. Same with italics. Grabbed an edge and had a go.

 

If you are going to classes then obviously you'll be wanting to follow the teacher's instructions. If you're doing it by yourself, then you make the choices.

 

Important point: Have fun, and don't stress over progress.

 

By the way: if that is your own writing in the OP (which I'm sure it must be) then it looks like you are off to a flying start! Better than I am for sure.

[ksm]

By the way: if that is your own writing in the OP (which I'm sure it must be) then it looks like you are off to a flying start! Better than I am for sure.

Yes, this is my handwriting, as in written at relaxed pace and not draw as in Calligraphy. I'm learning italics since August'15, first from Lloyd Reynolds' lectures on YT, and later from Fred Eager's book. Since March'16 I had help form the "respected member of other forum" I've mentioned earlier.

 

Unfortunately, when looking at my writing above I see mostly my faults. Like for example:

• Lack of consistency in counter sizes between upper counters (m,n) and lower counter (a, u).
• Down strokes not parallel on "stright letters" like "h" in "that while".
• Problems with letter width, i.e. compare first a in "away" and last letter "a" on first line.
• Too sharp lower curve in "a" i.e. broad in fifth line.
• curves on many "b, p, d" letters do not appear parallel to ascenders/descender, as they should.
• Push strokes on a, g, p, b do not always connect to vertical stroke.
• Full unjoined "s" lack symmetry between lower and upper curves.
• "r" resembles narrow "v" and not cut off "n".
• Over all effect would be better if slant and letter height were more consistent.

All in all, I simply know how much work is ahead of me.

Edited May 22, 2016 by ksm

[smk]

I agree that formal Italic is much harder than it looks. The issue is not the formation of the letters but the much harder to acquire skill of seeing the subtleties of the script in spacing, counters, balance, ligature etc. This is true for learning any calligraphic hand though. One goes through phases of practice and 'revelations' where one suddenly 'gets' a certain aspect of the script. Some hands are just easier to learn than others.

 

Starting with simpler scripts makes this process easier for a scribe by developing the basic vocabulary and perception. I think this is why many teachers recommend starting with Foundational or Blackletter. I would go even further and suggest starting with Uncial - it will only take a few days and you will have a very useful script at your command.

 

This is only useful if the goal is to learn several hands. What if someone is only interested in learning Italic?

 

I would not go so far as to say that formal Italic is the 'wrong' hand for beginners. People learn differently and motivation is a big factor in keeping up with your practice. One can certainly start with learning formal Italic, it would just be a little more work on both the teacher's and the student's parts.

 

Lloyd Reynold's lessons are for Italic Handwriting. I think he mentions that in one of his episodes. Handwriting is done much more freely and is not subject to as many rules as formal Italic would be.

 

I had some experience with Arabic Calligraphy when I started serious study of Western hands. I thought I would start with Italic but was gently guided to Gothic Batarde. It made a world of difference to me and I cannot thank my teacher enough for that. However, my goals did include learning a number of hands.

 

- Salman

[Tasmith]

I think you're being too hard on yourself. Unless you plan on turning professional anytime soon, you Italic is very, very nice for only doing it for less than a year. Anyone who receives a hand written envelope, letter or card from you will be thrilled with your writing.

 

Keep practicing and your writing will keep getting better.

Edited May 22, 2016 by Tasmith

[bobje]

KSM,

Lloyd Reynolds, Tom Gourdie, and Fred Eager would disagree. The Reynolds video series depicts him participating in italic handwriting lessons in elementary schools, and his students Barbara Getty and Inga Dubay taught in those schools. Another student, Fred Eager, wrote a book called "Italic Handwriting for Young People," designed for elementary-school age children. Gourdie's entire mission was focused on persuading school systems, first in Scotland and then worldwide, to adopt a simple italic hand. The Gourdie Wikipedia entry depicts him teaching children in Australia.

 

Your italic hand is impressive. Love the push heads on your miniscule b's and h's, the end of the descender on your miniscule f's is crisp, and the loops on your miniscule g's are beautiful. Additionally, the joins between letters look effortless.

 

Salman,

Uncial really only takes a couple of days? Was that so that medieval clerks could be trained more quickly?

Bob

[smk]

Bob - the basic Uncial alphabet only has one case and the letters are all written with the same pen angle of approximately 30 degrees. The strokes are fairly straightforward and the counter shapes are very similar in letters that share a common shape.

 

It is probably the easiest hand to learn because the student can concentrate on just keeping the whole of the nib on the paper and getting the shapes right. I believe anyone with basic writing skills should be able to pick it up in a few days - a couple of days would be pushing it though :-)

 

Uncial is a very early form of writing. In its earliest form, it didn't even have any word or line breaks nor any ascenders or descenders. It was hard to read the text if one didn't already have an idea of what was written. Spacing developed quickly though and was then followed by the addition of some very short ascenders and descenders. Most of the Uncial work we see is of the much later and well developed style but even then there is no pen manipulation and simple letter forms. The hand was in use from the 4th to 10th centuries. This is a very long period for a script to be used, especially when you consider how little it changed during this time. The popularity must have had something to do with ease of learning and execution IMO.

 

- Salman

[ksm]

Lloyd Reynold's lessons are for Italic Handwriting. I think he mentions that in one of his episodes. Handwriting is done much more freely and is not subject to as many rules as formal Italic would be.

 

On the other hand, I've seen scans/photos of correspondence between Tom Gourdie and Lloyd Reynolds, both of their handwritings are captivating. There is also dms525 of this forum, who is not a professional calligrapher, but whose handwriting I admire.

All of those hands are freely written, but they follow patterns (but not exact measurements) of formal italics and that makes them so visually attractive.

 

@Tasmith:

I do not plan to turn pro. For me calligraphy is a form of self improvement.

 

I'm learning to criticize my own work. I cannot improve if I do not know what requires improvement

 

@Bobje:

I'm trying to get rid of joins to ascenders in my relaxed hand, push head force me to lift my pen, just as push serif on descender of "p" forces me to lift my pen and begin body of "p" from baseline and not forcing it from the bottom of descender.

 

Tom's Gourdie advocacy of adoption of italics in school systems worldwide can be construed as push for simple italic (like monoline italics used in Briem's and Sassoon's systems). This kind of handwriting has a valour of being legible but it does not convey all the subtleties of v

Edited May 23, 2016 by ksm

[smk]

 

On the other hand, I've seen scans/photos of correspondence between Tom Gourdie and Lloyd Reynolds, both of their handwritings are captivating. There is also dms525 of this forum, who is not a professional calligrapher, but whose handwriting I admire.

All of those hands are freely written, but they follow patterns (but not exact measurements) of formal italics and that makes them so visually attractive.

 

I am not sure what you are disagreeing with here. I never said one cannot learn good Italic handwriting without having learned formal Italic. Since your original post asked for opinions on learning formal Italic as a first hand, I presented my opinions accordingly.

 

It is formal Italic Calligraphy that I would not recommend as a first hand - but even then, I do believe it can be learned with a bit of effort.

 

- Salman

[brunico]

The issue is not the formation of the letters but the much harder to acquire skill of seeing the subtleties of the script in spacing, counters, balance, ligature etc.

 

This.

 

The superficial fanciness of any hand - the 'flicks' in italic, for instance - isn't what makes it attractive. And when people imitate the fanciness rather than trying to understand the structure, the results can look stilted and uneven, as I remember my own handwriting when I was young and trying out q with a tail and so on. Yet there are people on this forum whose letter shapes aren't more advanced than the ball-and-stick method, but with neatness, fluidity and personality the effect can be very harmonious and pleasing, and I envy some of them.

 

Ornament - such as ascenders that curve at the top - should flow from the letterform and not look like an add-on. Seeing only the ornament at the beginning of learning a style can cramp the other strokes and get in the way of developing a hand that has flow and vigour.