The Flexy Craze

[Uncial]

My wet noodle Waterman 52 has had a crease in the nib developing over the last two years. It always had it to a very small degree but for the last two years it has grown, partly because it's had quite a lot of use. Eventually I'm sure a crack will develop, but until then I'll get my use out of it. I take a kind of wabi-sabi approach to these things which I'm sure will utterly horrify some, but that's an aside - what I mean is that I've started looking at the possibility of a replacement. If I can get a nice wet noodle 52 nib to fit all the better, but I'm not really going to hold my breath on that front.

 

Anyways, what I've noticed is that there seems to be high demand for flex nibs now - more so than when I first got that Waterman 52 all those years ago. I also notice that ebay and various other places are full of 'flex' and 'full flex' nibbed pens. I'm quite sure some of them are legitimate, but I've actually seen quite a few labelled as such that I know are simply not flexible at all. For instance, there are quite a number of Conway Stewarts currently listed on ebay as having 'full flex' nibs. I didn't think any Conway Stewarts had any flex nibs let alone 'full flex' nibs. Springy, yes; flex, no. There seem to be quite a number of others and some even provide writing samples where it is quite clear they are forcing the nib to do something that it was never designed to do. Presumably this now adds a significant premium to fountain pens so it serves a seller well to advertise as such even the pen is not what they suggest.

 

Has buying flex now become a complete minefield? I was thinking about buying a Swan Mabie Todd simply because it is often cheaper to buy a new pen than to buy a new nib. I realise there are risks involved in this, but are they actually considerably higher than I think?

[Cryptos]

Simple answer: yes. My favourite dip pen - the Gillott 404 - goes from hairline to broad without any real effort, and yet I would hardly call it a wet noodle. However, it is perfect (for me) to control, where a genuine noodly nib might be a bit of a trial. Much like a Leonardt Principal can be to the unwary.

 

I have noticed that there are an increasing number of sellers stating the flexible characteristics of their wares, often without providing a decent example of writing. In the end it often comes down to whose definition you want to run with. There are some true shockers on eBay, and some of them are supposed to be "respectable" pen people.

 

I have a Mabie Todd Blackbird with a very soft nib, but because it is a medium nib I don't really use it that much. And I recently got a Waterman 52 in a very poor state (unrepairable) for $20 so I could see what a #2 nib was like. Well, it's springy, no more so than a Pilot soft nib.

 

Searching for these things is a thankless and utterly frustrating task. I am inclined to take the same route as AAAndrew and embrace the dip. Also, I have a growing conviction that there are a lot of owners of flexible fountain pen nibs out there who never use them. Pens just rotting away in drawers. It's a feeling I have, that's all.

 

You could ask around for some help to acquire such a flexible beast, and I daresay you will get better traction than I ever did.

 

Good luck!

ps: Pierre has new stock in, last I looked.

 

pps: correspondence is nearly on it's way! (Sorry for the delay).

[Uncial]

Thanks EOC. I'm thinking about the dip pen option. I guess it's the convenience of the 52 that has me spoiled Not that I am skilled in using it mind. It's fun and I very much like it, but if I've had a cup of coffee, even with my light writing touch, the 52 wet noodle is not the pen I'd be reaching for first.

 

I saw Pierre's stock alright, but I'm holding out in the hope of something else.

[jar]

Has buying flex now become a complete minefield? I was thinking about buying a Swan Mabie Todd simply because it is often cheaper to buy a new pen than to buy a new nib. I realise there are risks involved in this, but are they actually considerably higher than I think?

 

I have long suggested that when searching for a flex pen buy the seller instead of the pen. There are a dozen or so folk that actually know what a flex nib is like and the difference between useful and abusive and if you buy from them you can be assured of getting what you expect.

[AAAndrew]

Anytime a particular type of object is popular and brings more money, suddenly everything seems to be one. (see "organic" and "Natural" products)

 

I agree with jar, buy the seller instead of the pen. My biggest fear is that a seller who doesn't really know what they're doing will spring or at least damage a nib trying to show just how flexible it is, and then sell it to you.

 

As EoC has mentioned, I've decided that I don't need a flexible nib for taking notes in a meeting, and I don't sign my name in copperplate, so I stick with regular fountain pens for most of my writing. When I would want a flexible nib, like for writing letters or practicing calligraphy, I have a nice little portable setup with nibs, holders and ink that I can carry with me to coffee shops, etc... Not only are the nibs much, much better than any gold fountain pen nib, they're much, much cheaper as well.

 

But if you want a flexible nib fountain pen, I'd go to the sellers who know what they're doing and specialize.

[Uncial]

Yes, going with the seller rather than the pen is good advice, thank you. I guess I was vainly hoping that I would get a new pen for the price of a wet noodle nib replacement. There are a couple of sellers that I am aware of who are reliable and trustworthy, but more recently their prices (specifically on ebay) are significantly higher than I feel able to spend right now. Dip nibs for me for a bit, but I could always pull out that early Conklin. I better get used to dipping my hand in the ice bucket before touching it so it doesn't burp repeatedly from the heat of my hand.

[AAAndrew]

If your Conklin burps repeatedly, you may want to think about a slightly smaller sac. If there's not enough air between the sac and the outside of the barrel, that's when you can easily overheat the ink and make it expand.

 

when I first started doing simple repairs I "heard" about "a guy" who thought bigger capacity is better, so tried to shove the largest sac that would fit into a pen. Turns out "he" had to learn the hard way.

 

Or so I've heard.

 

Do you have dip nibs?

[Uncial]

Thanks AAAndrew, it does actually have quite a large sac in it for what is quite a small pen (it's a little early BCHR 2Nl) so changing it might do the trick alright; thanks for the tip. It doesn't help that I have the metabolism of a small sun.

 

I've a good number of Brause dip nibs ( a few rose and an electric blue one that's very good). I have a couple of flexible stubs too and a pile of somewhat stiff Waverly nibs, but they produce a very nice superfine line. Anything else I should look out for?

[AAAndrew]

In your neck of the woods (side of the pond), the William Mitchell "G" pens are great and often overlooked. Of course Gillott's pens are always popular. I particularly like the 292's as a moderate flex, similar to the much more popular (and expensive) 404's but not as well-known. The Gillott 303's are more of an advanced course, but quite eye-opening, especially if you think you know what a "fine line" is from just fountain pens. Perry & Co. is also a well-respected Birmingham maker. If you're looking for real flex, usually if you see "EF" attached to a name or number, that's a good sign. Extra fine nibs are almost always very flexible as well. If you're looking for semi-flex for regular correspondence, then most pointed pens will have some level of flex unless they same something like "Inflexible" or "manifold" in the name. (Even the Esterbrook 322 Inflexible has as much flex as a Pilot Falcon so-called soft nib)

 

The French made some quite nice nibs as well, the Blanzy-Poure 2552 nibs are quite popular and not that hard to find. The Sargent Majors can be nicely flexible, though rather long and so may take some getting used to.

 

Over on my side of the pond I could tell you much more about American nibs, but I'm not sure how common they might be where you are. Feel free to PM me any questions on American nibs you may run across, and I'll answer as I can.

[Cryptos]

Extra fine nibs are almost always very flexible as well. If you're looking for semi-flex for regular correspondence, then most pointed pens will have some level of flex unless they same something like "Inflexible" or "manifold" in the name. (Even the Esterbrook 322 Inflexible has as much flex as a Pilot Falcon so-called soft nib)

 

There's nothing "so-called" about the softness of my Pilot FA nib. It is truly soft. In fact I would go so far as to say it is at least as soft as a 404. Having said that though, the softness does not necessarily imply crispness or snap. So the 404 is the more precise nib (in this example), and has a better maximum range (as far as such things may be dared!).

 

I have yet to see (or indeed had not heard about until now) the Gillott 292. Vintage 404's are expensive right now, 292s... no idea.

 

I can also second the 2552s. Got a box of the Cementee version and really like them.

[AAAndrew]

Maybe it's my particular Pilot, or maybe I'm just too cowardly to push mine to its limits.

 

Don't get me wrong, I like mine, it's an extra-fine soft, but I get more shading from an Esterbrook 1000 School Firm Fine nib than from my Pilot.

 

I don't see the 292's often. I happened to have some in a large bag o' nibs I purchased. But then I'm not out looking for Gillott's either. If you do see them, they're worth getting.

[Uncial]

In your neck of the woods (side of the pond), the William Mitchell "G" pens are great and often overlooked. Of course Gillott's pens are always popular. I particularly like the 292's as a moderate flex, similar to the much more popular (and expensive) 404's but not as well-known. The Gillott 303's are more of an advanced course, but quite eye-opening, especially if you think you know what a "fine line" is from just fountain pens. Perry & Co. is also a well-respected Birmingham maker. If you're looking for real flex, usually if you see "EF" attached to a name or number, that's a good sign. Extra fine nibs are almost always very flexible as well. If you're looking for semi-flex for regular correspondence, then most pointed pens will have some level of flex unless they same something like "Inflexible" or "manifold" in the name. (Even the Esterbrook 322 Inflexible has as much flex as a Pilot Falcon so-called soft nib)

 

The French made some quite nice nibs as well, the Blanzy-Poure 2552 nibs are quite popular and not that hard to find. The Sargent Majors can be nicely flexible, though rather long and so may take some getting used to.

 

Over on my side of the pond I could tell you much more about American nibs, but I'm not sure how common they might be where you are. Feel free to PM me any questions on American nibs you may run across, and I'll answer as I can.

Thank you, that's a lot of very useful information. Much appreciated.

[Cryptos]

Ah, AAAndrew, you are talking about the Elabo nib and I am referencing the FA nib. Different beasts entirely! My mistake. I have no experience with the Elabo nib. It's a bit unlikely that I will run across any 292s, I've not seen any come up on the Bay. Chances of running into any dip nibs in person in this country is nil I'm afraid.

[FarmBoy]

Some observations:

 

Nibs are always more flexible when you are selling them than they are when you are buying them.

All nibs flex at least once.

If your nib is developing a crease it is not as flexible as you think.

As the supply of flexible nibs shrinks due to expiration, demand will drive pricing.

[playtime]

The game's afoot!

 

Some observations:

 

Nibs are always more flexible when you are selling them than they are when you are buying them.

All nibs flex at least once.

If your nib is developing a crease it is not as flexible as you think.

As the supply of flexible nibs shrinks due to expiration, demand will drive pricing.

Edited April 12, 2016 by playtime

[ac12]

I went the dip pen route.

My biggest discovery here, was the oblique dip pen holder. The oblique off-set lets me write with a dip pen, in a way that I cannot write with a fountain pen with a flex nib.

Edited April 12, 2016 by ac12

[sakayume]

I fully agree about the oblique holder. It makes writing copperplate with a tripod grip much, much easier. That being said, I'm still curious about flexible nibbed fountain pens and will likely continue to be so until I manage to satisfy my curiosity by actually trying a truly flexible fountain pen out. Even one tells oneself that the flexibility and ease of writing of a dip pen is superior, the itch to try the fountain pen remains.

[Uncial]

Some observations:

 

Nibs are always more flexible when you are selling them than they are when you are buying them.

All nibs flex at least once.

If your nib is developing a crease it is not as flexible as you think.

As the supply of flexible nibs shrinks due to expiration, demand will drive pricing.

 

 

I suspect that my 52 was dropped at some point in its history and that one tine was crudely bent back into position. I can't be certain, but that is what the crease looks like.

 

 

I fully agree about the oblique holder. It makes writing copperplate with a tripod grip much, much easier. That being said, I'm still curious about flexible nibbed fountain pens and will likely continue to be so until I manage to satisfy my curiosity by actually trying a truly flexible fountain pen out. Even one tells oneself that the flexibility and ease of writing of a dip pen is superior, the itch to try the fountain pen remains.

 

 

Of the dip nibs I've tried that are flexible they just aren't the same at all as a flexible fountain pen nib. I'm sure others will have more and broader experience than me, but I find that the wet noodle takes virtually no effort whatsoever to write flex with. This makes it slightly problematic if you aren't in the right 'zone' to use it. If you are an altogether calmer individual, unaffected by caffeine or cold or weariness then it may be slightly less of an issue. That said, the nib is simply more substantial than a dip nib and takes a little extra concentration. The ability to pen twirl to a degree also helps - something I'm really not very good at. There is definitely something about the angle of the oblique in relation to the page and to the shaft which seems to make it easier for me when using flex. You have to remember that on a pen the nib is fixed directly under your fingers and the angle is more dependent on how big your hands are. A shaft on a dip pen is also much easier to hold up high. The two positives for me in relation to a fountain pen is the convenience and the fact that the weight of the pen does some of the work for you, but does mean that fine lines requires an extremely steady hand.

Edited April 12, 2016 by Uncial

[AAAndrew]

I prefer straight holders to obliques, and there are master penmen who use straight holders. Each person needs to find what is more comfortable for them. (which means more pens!)

 

Dip pens do have a stronger "action" which is how they used to talk about steel pens in their golden age. I've come to realize that the "action" of a pen is a combination of flexibility (how wide can it go relative to its neutral line), spring (how quickly does it come back when you release the pressure), and softness (how easy is it to spread the tines). There's also smoothness as a separate characteristic.

 

You can have a dip pen that is stiff but flexible, or one that is soft and flexible, and both can have good spring. It's a combination. The pens which are soft tend to be much more difficult to control. These are the "wet noodles" and frankly, I'm not a big fan. I prefer a pen with good spring and some stiffness. The Hunt 56 (vintage) is soft and flexible and moderate spring. The famed Gillott 303 (vintage) is a little stiffer with much better spring and good spread. The experience of the action is different between the two pens. If you just want wide, go with the Hunt 56. If you want responsive, which is what you want for controlled calligraphy, choose the 303. But then the 303 is much sharper (less smooth) than the 56. And thus it's harder to control that way.

 

Most of what I read about flexible fountain pens relates to how far apart the tines spread. Part of this is narrow understanding, part of this is because you'll never get the same degree of "snap," of spring, in a gold nib that you will in a steel nib. The material just can't get the same degree of spring. Also, most fountain pen nibs are much smoother than steel nibs. This is a great advantage, but also means you just can't get the same thin hairlines on a fountain pen as you do with a dip nib.

 

Tradeoffs. Choose one or choose the other. But to make a good choice, you need to try both. Fortunately, dip nibs are much cheaper to get started with than flexible fountain pens. Use them to figure out if you even like writing with a flexible nib, then if you do, you have some idea of what you're looking for in a fountain pen.

 

'Course, that's just my two-pence worth of hot air.

[sakayume]

This thread has been a very interesting and educational read for me, thank you Uncial and AAAndrew. I guess I'm still for the chase when it comes to flexy fountain pens.

 

 

 

Most of what I read about flexible fountain pens relates to how far apart the tines spread

This is something that bothers me too. I don't care how far the tines are able to spread if it requires bearing down hard on the nib to even get that spread.