Inks That Eat Sacs

[Olya]

 

Though not published yet, some controlled tests have been done. There appears to be a direct correlation between the saturation of the ink and failure of latex sacs. Diluting the ink by 20% reduces, but does not eliminate the negative effects.

Interesting. Is it more about saturation than actual colour (e.g. red, which was said to be problematic)? Any concrete examples of (saturated) inks that are "bad" for sacs? Or which inks would you say are too saturated?

[Intensity]

Without quantifying what the ink is made of and making studies based on similar ink types, simply qualitatively saying that "saturation" has correlation doesn't help. Pigment inks have different properties from dye-based inks. Both have different constituents of different pH levels, etc.

Edited May 10, 2018 by Intensity

[Bo Bo Olson]

I read somewhere where omeone talked about sac's dying as a reason that lever pens died.

No, rubber sacs were good for 30-40 years...I had one go 60. (long story, it was an inherited '48-52 Esterbrook; could tell by the lever, and in Germany sac pens wouldn't have been re-sacked. Sac pens died in the early '30's. Sat in two drawers for 15 years each.)

1929 Pelikan's piston dragged the lever pen makers Soennecken, MB and Kaweco screaming into the mid-20ths century.

 

Fountain pens were like cars, always a status symbol.

 

In the '30's, button fillers, Vac's and the 1940 P-51 offered top of the line....more complicated filling systems as top of the line.

 

It takes a lot longer to fill a button filler in the barrel cap has to be unscrewed, then, much less the P-51 than any lever. But Lever was Old Fashioned, and had to go, when the 7-10 years one used up a pen in the One Man, One Pen days; one bought an up to date, best 'improvement' pen.

When the New Balance lever filler came in@'32....it was high status, and the flat tops became passe`.

When the 1940 P-51 came in, the New Balance was not up to date.

When the Touchdown and Snorkel came in, the old fashioned P-51 was no longer the King of Pens.

 

As ball points took the market of casual writing....and 'top end', fountain pen companies were saved by making very expensive cartridges and touting them as fast and no ink stained fingers.....screw off the barrel, pull out cartridge, stick in cartridge, put on barrel. One could have filled three or four sack pens in that time.

 

I don't watch much TV, but was walking through the living room to go get a Coke, and saw a scene of a resent movie.... could have been the guy on the Titanic in a later movie, well dressed, clicking a ball point; needlessly, to show, he had a high status ball point.

 

After the cartridge pens came in, Esterbrook, Wearever and Venus still made sack pens, so that is were the 'cheap' lever pens are.

The big companies, switched to selling the up to date, expensive company saving cartridge.

 

The 1900's Conklin and the 1912 Sheaffer sack pens were in their day, top of the line, up to date, fountain pens.

Status said, don't buy a Paul E. Wirt pen any more; it's old fashioned....as were Safety Pens.

 

Status demands up to date, and advertising; to show having X, is IN.

Edited May 10, 2018 by Bo Bo Olson

[whimsicism]

I've just had a sac melt on me. It's a pen that I'd bought from Peyton Street Pens in 2016, so it's restored by a reputable store. It was filled with J Herbin Rouge Bourgogne when it melted, and had been filled with Diamine Carnation previously.

 

It's a little disappointing because I wasn't really expecting J Herbin to melt a sac

[Intensity]

I've just had a sac melt on me. It's a pen that I'd bought from Peyton Street Pens in 2016, so it's restored by a reputable store. It was filled with J Herbin Rouge Bourgogne when it melted, and had been filled with Diamine Carnation previously.

 

It's a little disappointing because I wasn't really expecting J Herbin to melt a sac

Hrm, this goes along with the red color theory... Of course it could also be anything else, like a defect in the sac material.

[cattar]

Also citrus in dishsoap.

I think it's likely because it's citrus oil, and any oil will break down latex.

 

Had this happen to a sac I flushed without reading the soap label first. The sac seemed pale, so I left it in solution to see what would happen. Sac turned grey and spongy.

 

Eta regular Dawn dishsoap doesn't do that!

Edited May 13, 2018 by cattar

[Intensity]

Great info, thank you!

[Sholom]

I've been away from FPN for a while so late to the party, but as someone who has a chemistry degree, has made my own inks, and has worked with dyes and pigments, let me add some more variables to the discussion. Dye purity is number one on my list, and any company that is not buying many kilograms of a given dye and paying extra for additional purification (like the inkjet ink makers do) is getting a product that, depending on the particular dye, manufacturer, and lot number, can contain a variety of impurities and be somewhat variable as to pH and salt content of its water solution. Also, for all but the highest grade and fanciest chemistry dyes, almost all production now takes place in India and the Far East. Some dye suppliers buy lots of dye on the open market that may have been made in different factories with different degrees of batch-to-batch impurity variation. Typically, dyes intended for primarily for the fabrics industry are standardized (sometimes by mixing batches) to a standard for that color (e.g. CIE L*a*b* coordinates for those in the know of color science), but with less concern for variations in the "innocuous impurities". Sometimes, "inert materials" are added to dilute a dye that came out a bit too strong so that the fabric dyers don't have to adjust the weight of dye added at their end. Because some of these "inert" impurities are by no means inert under the conditions of inkjet printers, dyes for that use are extensively purified by the dye manufacturers that have developed proprietary purification methods for each dye. The cost add-on for this purification is substantial, and quite possibly beyond what most or all fountain pen ink manufacturers can afford. Advantages the older ink companies may have are firstly that they may buy dye in larger quantity and secondly they may have long-standing relationships with one or more dye manufacturers so have access to better grades of dyes.

 

That's just on the dye side. I'm not as knowledgeable about latex, but reading these discussions always reminds my of what a senior colleague once told me when I worked at Polaroid: if you want reproducibility, starting with a natural material that undergoes minimal further processing is the wrong way to go. That is exactly the problem with latex sacs—raw material variability and a chemically crude manufacturing process. It is entirely possible that the seeming sensitivity of modern sacs to various dyes compared to many years ago reflects a change in latex processing, sourcing, or sac manufacturing (as the bad Woodbine sac batch showed). Parker was dealing with certain dyes degrading rubber pen parts in the 1940s. Take a look at U.S. Patent 2528390.

 

It's not simple, it's not easy to sort out, dye concentration could have an effect for certain dyes, but why and what else could be involved would be a major research project that neither pen or ink manufacturers have any incentive to undertake. In my case, if the only blue inks I had to write with were Parker, Sheaffer, and Waterman, I would stop writing in blue. To me, those inks are ugly and fading-prone. Ditto for most other colors. It's enough to make me break into my Blackwing pencil supply....

[Weaveras]

Wow, that's not really that positive. In reality fountain pens have been in use since the 1890s or so, far before modern QC on dyes or the precision in purification of water. That said, there does appear to be correlation between high concentrations of die and detrimental wear on pens over time.

[Intensity]

Is acidity an issue for latex sacs? Specifically some of the modern IG inks like R&K Scabiosa, Platinum Classic line, or KWZ IG inks.

[white_lotus]

I used to pooh-pooh the idea that modern inks were bad for pen sacs. But I regularly log the inks used in my pens, how long the ink was in the pen, when cleaned out. And after having my beloved Edison Beaumont pneumatics sent to Brian Gray for repair to replace the sac after it had deteriorated and knowing that I've used Sailor bespoke inks, KWZ, and many other modern more saturated inks, I simply can't say that "Modern sacs aren't as good as in the old days" though that may be a somewhat true statement.

 

After a couple years, each sac has melted or deteriorated in some way, requiring replacement.

 

Now I am someone who uses a pen for a month with an ink, and then it's thoroughly cleaned, and dried, and swapped out of rotation for several months. Maybe this is a bad practice on my part, and maybe the sac would prefer to have ink it it all the time. I don't know. I guess I'll find out when my pen returns this week and I switch to only Montblanc, Visconti, and maybe a few other inks.

 

Another unmentioned factor is all the "other stuff" that goes into an ink to have it flow nicely, not dry out in the nib, etc. that we expect from our FP inks. We have no idea what other chemicals, or their characteristics, or their compatibility with latex, goes into the inks, and the manufacturers aren't saying.

 

I'd be interested in hearing from those that don't seem to have problems with failing sacs while using modern inks and what their pen use might be, hygiene for their sac pens, etc. But I know I don't want to use some pathetic excuse of an ink (certain brands you know who you are) that's pale from the bottle and fades on the paper it's written on.

[Weaveras]

I'm getting kind of paranoid reading this thread, as my new Aurora uses the tiktak converter that has a sack. I've done a bunch of reading so far, and Aurora's apparently function better with wet ink. The only thing about colour that I care about is that it doesn't fade, and as I use my pens at work, I'm fine with black and blue. The only thing I've seen here is that diluting the ink a little will help, but are there any issues with fade when you do that?

[Ron Z]

We've found Aurora ink to be safe, along with Waterman, Pelikan, Montblanc....

 

Our source for PVC sacs (which I use in snorkels) passed away back in February. I don't know if the rest of the stock he had will become available or not. David Nishumura sells silicone sacs, but they have a gas permeability issue... You have to store the pen with the nib UP. Too bad he didn't have them made with the barrier layer on the outside. Maybe some day we will have the ideal pen sac.

[dcwaites]

 

Though not published yet, some controlled tests have been done. There appears to be a direct correlation between the saturation of the ink and failure of latex sacs. Diluting the ink by 20% reduces, but does not eliminate the negative effects.

 

I await with anticipation these results. But not with bated breath, because then I would turn blue and fall over...

[Madeline]

I'd be interested in hearing from those that don't seem to have problems with failing sacs while using modern inks and what their pen use might be, hygiene for their sac pens, etc.

 

I'm intrigued by your practice of regularly taking pens out of rotation and giving them time off. Even a favorite pen? I think I would find that hard to do. Does it extend the life of your fountain pens?

 

I'm guessing that years ago, when fountain pens were the norm, users continuously kept their (perhaps one and only) pen inked. Of course that doesn't seem practical today if one has many pens. But I, too, have wondered what is the best way to store a fountain pen with a latex sac when it's not in use. Does the sac begin to dry out if it is not holding ink? Does anyone fill the ink sacs of their out-of-rotation pens with distilled water? Could that practice add to their sac life? Just speculating here...

Edited June 17, 2018 by madeline

[inkstainedruth]

A friend of mine who is an artist found a Parker 51 at a flea market a number of years ago and wrote to Parker to get information about the pen. She said they told her to keep water in the pen when it was being stored. But I can't see that being all that useful -- the water would (eventually) evaporate, I would think. Or leak. And those Ply-glass sacs are really sturdy (given that they're effectively a form of plexiglass) -- pretty much to a man my 51 Aeros just needed a good flushing out when I got them.

I can't say about latex or rubber sacs. I don't store the pens with water in them for the same reason I don't store the out-of rotation 51s with water in them (evaporation/leaks).

Also I worry about stuff growing in them, even though I'm flushing with distilled water, not tap water.

And yeah, I do take "favorite" pens out of rotation -- even the 51s and even my Plum Demi. The only pen I own which has not had any sort of maintenance since I got it has been a Red Shadow Wave Vacumatic. I just refill it with Waterman Mysterious Blue as needed. I suppose at some point I really should at least floss the nib, but it's sort of become a game as to how long I can keep it in rotation without maintenance (I had it checked out when I bought it, but was told the diaphragm seemed to be in good shape). Come the beginning of August, it will be three years.... I wish I could say the same for my laptop.

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

[Cassotto]

I've got a Scripto pen with a sac that I've been using with Diamine Autumn Oak for three years non-stop (well, I stopped two months ago, when I had a slight mishap with it, and I haven't used it since), and although the sac still is as soft and flexible as it was the first day, it's turned from grey to something like dark pink. I wonder whether that means that the ink and the sac are reacting in some way that will eventually lead to the sac dissolving.

[white_lotus]

 

I'm intrigued by your practice of regularly taking pens out of rotation and giving them time off. Even a favorite pen? I think I would find that hard to do. Does it extend the life of your fountain pens?

 

 

It has nothing to do with extending the life of fountain pens as I presume they'll outlast me. It's that I simply do not write enough to keep multiple pens in rotation. So just a couple get inked at a time. And there are other favorites I want to use. So it's a matter of having way more pens than I can use.

[Uncial]

So, we can narrow this down to.....

Chlorine levels in water

Ink saturation

Duff sacs

Bacteria in tap water (dependent on area)

Red inks

Ph

Acidity

Alkaline

Any inks with red as a base or component

Gas exchange in permeable sacs

Non western ink makers

US ink makers, especially Libertarian ones

Heavy metals

Air

Reactions with plastics, differing types of acrylics and possibly metals.

Undefined and undisclosed chemicals in ink manufacture

Sheening inks

The presence of glitter

Diswash soap

Flushing fluids

Sonic baths

Green inks

Anything from Poland, China or Japan...or any country you think might be a bit suspect.

Rubber manufacture

....and probably a host of other things I've read where people are 100% certain that they have totally nailed the problem. My latest favourite theory (which may change depending on who posts what next) is sac filling pens died out. The sac filling method probably sucked to begin with, but really, how much is a sac?

[dcwaites]

You forgot --

Quantum

Existing above absolute Zero

and cats. Cats are responsible for most things.