Inks That Eat Sacs

[Fuzzy_Bear]

 

My standard recommendation is that one use an ink made by a pen manufacturer. I've never had nor seen a problem with MB inks, including the permanent blue/black for documents.

By that logic, Noodler's fills the bill. They make pens.

 

I use Noodler's and Private Reserve in all my pens. I had a snorkel that the sac failed three times. Last time, Danny took the pen apart and found out the metal inside the pen kept cutting the sac. The only failure I've had is an Estie. The sac melted and hardened in the bottom of the pen.

Edited February 12, 2016 by Fuzzy_Bear

[tonybelding]

Diamine Midnight Blue - I used this for a year in the same snorkel with no problems. Of course, I probably only used the pen maybe 4 times, but on the 5th time it didn't work. The man who repairs all my snorkels for me (Restorer's Art), showed me a picture of the chewed sac. Now I only use it in converter/piston pens.

 

 

Based on my own experiences and also conferring with someone who has to replace a lot of failed rubber sacs and bulbs, I concluded that I couldn't risk using Noodler's or Private Reserve in pens with rubber sacs anymore. (But pretty soon I decided not to use PR anymore in any pens, for a number of reasons.) So I bought a couple of nice, safe inks from Diamine to use in those pens. . .

 

Well, that leaves Herbin as "probably safe" in rubber sacs. And if not. . . Then I guess it's back to Sheaffer Skrip for everything. Or maybe better just stop using pens that have rubber sacs. (But I like my Snorkels too!)

[tonybelding]

By that logic, Noodler's fills the bill. They make pens.

 

 

Also, Pilot Iroshizuku and Pelikan Edelstein are both most definitely "boutique" inks.

[Buzz_130]

Saskia - sorry about the repair bill for your Snorkels, but we all appreciate your experience. I love my vintage pens, and I enjoy using a wide range of inks. Diamine Midnight was one of them (actually loaded this week in a Sheaffer level-filler, sigh...). Like you, I don't leave ink in pens as each one gets used several times a week to keep the ink flowing (and to allow me to use more pen and ink combinations).

 

Going to subscribe to this thread to follow along with inks others have caused some repairs.

 

Buzz

[PaperQueen]

 

 

Also, Pilot Iroshizuku and Pelikan Edelstein are both most definitely "boutique" inks.

 

Hmmm...in my mind, those would qualify as major manufacturers/producers.

 

To me, "boutique" is the realm of companies that are ink-driven, not defined by size, but by specialty: Akkerman, De Atramentis, Diamine, J. Herbin, and Bung Box, for example. Granted, J. Herbin has a pocket demonstrator pen, but it's private labeled, not something they manufacture directly.

 

Noodler's kind of straddles both categories, given the number of writing instruments they've gotten into.

 

Just my 2¢, which may or may not be of value in anyone else's pen piggy bank.

 

Saskia - sorry about the repair bill for your Snorkels, but we all appreciate your experience. I love my vintage pens, and I enjoy using a wide range of inks.

 

Going to subscribe to this thread to follow along with inks others have caused some repairs.

 

 

Ditto and ditto. Had no clue inks could damage sacs (although, in hind sight, well...duh...). I've been using Noodler's and Akkerman almost exclusively in my Esterbrooks.

 

Dang. Really like how they glide with deep, vibrant color.

[zwack]

I have had issues with one of the Noodlers inks in pens with rubber sacs, but only when left for a while, and not in all pens. I am not going to mention the particular ink as I dont think it was the ink as much as the way it was handled. As I said the same ink, different rubber sac pen and no problem.

 

Perhaps it is a combination of factors...

[tonybelding]

 

Hmmm...in my mind, those would qualify as major manufacturers/producers.

 

To me, "boutique" is the realm of companies that are ink-driven, not defined by size, but by specialty: Akkerman, De Atramentis, Diamine, J. Herbin, and Bung Box, for example. Granted, J. Herbin has a pocket demonstrator pen, but it's private labeled, not something they manufacture directly.

 

 

I call Iroshizuku and Edelstein boutique inks because they fit the profile: A large selection of colors, "fancy" names, elaborate glass bottles and packaging, and high price tags.

 

And the original line of boutique inks was, arguably, Parker Penman.

[Algester]

then Sailor also fall into the botique category then... with over 1000 inks... maybe 1000++ considering how many people have their personal inks made by Sailor in Japan... with a 2K yen price tag...

Edited February 14, 2016 by Algester

[dcwaites]

That makes Sailor a Boutique Ink Company, that occasionally makes pens, just like Noodler's.

[Algester]

That makes Sailor a Boutique Ink Company, that occasionally makes pens, just like Noodler's.

well even then their mainstay inks of 50 Kobe + 3 colors + 8 colors + 10 pigmented inks maybe they can be considered botique... but they still make pens on a monthly basis (special editions) + all of their standard pens... but bleh...

who knows maybe they will shift to inks in the high gear... after all they temporarily halted the orders for the Nagahara nibs :X

Edited February 14, 2016 by Algester

[Buzz_130]

While the Golden Age of fountain pens has certainly passed, I agree with Bo Bo that we may be living in the Golden Age of inks. The passion of this community for inks that go beyond what a ballpoint/gel/rollerball might give is what is allowing companies to pop up around the world.

 

I also think it's important to point out that Saskia's problem is not with boutique inks; it's the mixture of some of these boutique inks with vintage pen sacs. For example, Pilot can be a boutique ink creator and seller, and they don't sell pens with ink sacs. C/C and piston pens may be stained by these inks, but we don't have any reports of pieces melting.

 

Given the number of Golden Age fountain pens many FPN users enjoy and use, I think this topic is important to keep updated as we also have members who have extensively collection of boutique and pen seller inks.

 

Buzz

[Uncial]

I am also wondering how many destroyed sacs were old ones. Rubber perishes anyway over time, and some sacs may have been ripe for attack by aggressive pen-eating inks.

 

Does anybody have any new sacs that were damaged by inks?

 

 

Yes. I have had three sacs melt that were attached to nothing and had nothing in them other than air. They were sitting in my drawer. I also had two Parker vac sacs (trimmed and fitted) melt. Both Parker vac units melted completely and of the sacs, one melted entirely into a very sticky mush and the other two developed holes. None of them were particularly old (maybe a year at most) and the melting seemed to be very sudden in all cases. One Parker vac unit was in use in a pen with Rohrer & Klingner ink (not an iron gal). All of them were from different suppliers. I know that the Parker vac ones have been known to perish from 'bad batches' but I do wonder if there is only one or two main suppliers of these things and production skill isn't quite what it should be, because I bought all of mine from very reputable retailers.

[tonybelding]

I also think it's important to point out that Saskia's problem is not with boutique inks; it's the mixture of some of these boutique inks with vintage pen sacs. For example, Pilot can be a boutique ink creator and seller, and they don't sell pens with ink sacs. C/C and piston pens may be stained by these inks, but we don't have any reports of pieces melting.

 

 

The only company I'm aware of that still sells both ink and pens with rubber sacs (specifically, lever fillers) is. . . Delta.

[ENewton]

 

 

Yes. I have had three sacs melt that were attached to nothing and had nothing in them other than air. They were sitting in my drawer. I also had two Parker vac sacs (trimmed and fitted) melt. Both Parker vac units melted completely and of the sacs, one melted entirely into a very sticky mush and the other two developed holes. None of them were particularly old (maybe a year at most) and the melting seemed to be very sudden in all cases. One Parker vac unit was in use in a pen with Rohrer & Klingner ink (not an iron gal). All of them were from different suppliers. I know that the Parker vac ones have been known to perish from 'bad batches' but I do wonder if there is only one or two main suppliers of these things and production skill isn't quite what it should be, because I bought all of mine from very reputable retailers.

 

Would you mind disclosing which Rohrer and Klingner ink it was? It would be good to know which one had best be used only in a pen without a sac.

[zwack]

Would you mind disclosing which Rohrer and Klingner ink it was? It would be good to know which one had best be used only in a pen without a sac.

 

I think his point was more that some new sacs melt without any obvious reason... The three that melted just sitting in a drawer for example... No ink involved there.

[tonybelding]

Unfortunately, it's very difficult to draw conclusions from anecdotal evidence. There are too many variables unaccounted for. Maybe Diamine killed that sac. Maybe it was ready to self-destruct anyhow? Maybe this Noodler's ink eats sacs and that other one doesn't?

 

In an ideal world a real chemist could perform some research into the degradation process, find out what compounds trigger it, and then inks could be analyzed and their latex-safety could be predicted. In reality, I don't know who would ever put in the time and resources for something like that. Until then, all we can look to is statistics.

 

The only people I know who see enough melted sacs to draw statistical conclusions might be pen repairers -- and even they have to go by whatever the clients tell them (which is often vague), and I don't know if any of them have tried keeping methodical records either. I was alerted to the potential sac-eating properties of Noodler's and PR from Brian Gray, who produces multiple types of pens with rubber sacs, bulbs and diaphragms, and he has to support them with repairs.

 

However, even his ink advice seemed a bit. . . um. . . casual. He repeated the line I've heard before about favoring "pen maker inks", but when I asked about Herbin he thought that was probably OK. He knows what he's seen, but he hasn't done a real study into the subject either.

Edited February 14, 2016 by tonybelding

[Goudy]

 

In an ideal world a real chemist could perform some research into the degradation process, find out what compounds trigger it, and then inks could be analyzed and their latex-safety could be predicted.

 

Richard Binder, in the article mentioned above, links the problem to pH level:

 

"Most Japanese inks are alkaline. Alkaline inks are hostile to latex. I have experimental evidence that at least some of the Pilot Iroshizuku colors will destroy latex sacs. (A table on the Internet, with source citations, indicates that Japanese inks have a pH range from about 8 to higher than 10.) For this reason, I recommend that you avoid using Japanese inks in sac-filling pens as well as in pens that are made of organic resins and use the barrel for the ink reservoir (as described in the preceding paragraph)."

 

If this is correct, then testing for latex-safety is something anyone can do with a strip of litmus paper (assuming there are no other major factors involved).

 

I'm a little sceptical, though. Note that Mr Binder says that some Iroshizukus "will destroy latex sacs". Not "may", "will". I've been using a wide range of Iroshizuku inks in vintage pens, including sac fillers, for years and have never had a problem.

[tonybelding]

I'm a little sceptical, though. Note that Mr Binder says that some Iroshizukus "will destroy latex sacs". Not "may", "will". I've been using a wide range of Iroshizuku inks in vintage pens, including sac fillers, for years and have never had a problem.

 

 

Iroshizuku is one of the few brands that I've never heard about anybody having any kind of problem with, ever. It's exactly what I would have recommended to anyone who had anxiety over this subject. And now. . . Now I'm not sure about that either.

[zwack]

tonybelding has it right... Even the pen repairers are only reporting from anecdotal evidence... They ask customer What did you use in this pen the sac is destroyed. Customer says well, just X ink. Forgetting that they accidentally cleaned it with a neat 10% ammonia solution, or that they flushed it with city water treated with Chlorine (or Bromine), then left it sitting in a hot window for a few days.

 

You get my point.

 

The most interesting comment so far was the one from Uncial reporting three unused unmounted sacs melting. Was the drawer lined with cedar perhaps, or was there a heavy dose of furniture polish used on the desk or...

 

I would imagine that there is some environmental factor at play here. Although I don't know what.

[Uncial]

 

Would you mind disclosing which Rohrer and Klingner ink it was? It would be good to know which one had best be used only in a pen without a sac.

 

 

I can assure you it was not the ink that was the problem, so naming it would proliferate wrong information.

 

Posted by zwack:

 

The most interesting comment so far was the one from Uncial reporting three unused unmounted sacs melting. Was the drawer lined with cedar perhaps, or was there a heavy dose of furniture polish used on the desk or...

I would imagine that there is some environmental factor at play here. Although I don't know what.

 

​I can't rule out environmental factors. They were in a drawer in a solid oak desk. I haven't polished it in years....perhaps I shouldn't admit that bit.

 

I recall a discussion either here on FPN or somewhere else regarding Mr Binder's accusation of some Iro inks. If memory serves it was about a year ago and I went off searching for information on it as he seemed unable to share which inks exactly he was referring to. At that time I found a blog with lots of stuff about ink fade tests and registrar's inks as well as some tests on iron gal inks. It was by a lab chemist who had tested quite a number of inks from all the main players. A number of posts focused on the alkaline and acid content of inks and there were quite a lot of full (or near to full ranges) tested. Iro's range was there with results, in entirety and it was clear that none of them would present a problem. A large range of Noodler's and Sailor inks were presented and again, none demonstrated any kind of problem worth worrying about. The reason it stuck in my mind wasn't for any of this in particular, but because he had tested a number of iron gal inks which had over time, burnt through the paper. One in particular (a brand I don't remember and not one I think has ever been mentioned here - perhaps vintage?) was particularly adept at burning through paper. It didn't present any problems in a pen and his conclusion was that while the ink had some minor issues, it was actually the paper that was the problem. He recommended not using iron gal inks on cheap mass produced papers as this might be a possibility due to the chemical changes in the ink as it aged. I've tried to find that blog again, but can't. I wouldn't be surprised if it was done by someone on here, or hopefully someone here will know of it and where it is to be found. Overall, the blog details were suggesting that Mr Binder's accusation was incorrect, but without his tests and their results and details of the actual inks he is referring to then we can't make an informed judgement.

 

​All that is by the by and possibly a little more of a tangent, but ultimately I don't believe that melting sacs actually has anything to do with inks. I've had sacs melt in pens after a months use. I also have pen that have had the same sac in them for the last thirty years and still work. I think it's pot luck on the sac to be honest. What would be interesting to know is if this was a regular occurrence in the past in fountain pens, because if it was then that might shed some light on it. I have sacs that have held inks everybody says you should never use in a sac filler for years without an issue. Others have melted all of a sudden with inks everybody says are safe. I know its only more anecdotal evidence, but I can't say I've ever noticed any of my BCHR eye droppers melting lately and they all have the same inks as the rest.

Edited February 15, 2016 by Uncial