One Vacumatic Less Usual

[kirchh]

Lazard, what does the text in the 1938 catalog say about which models of pens are guaranteed for life?

 

--Daniel

[kirchh]

 

A/ Among the abundant documentation that you say to have, do you have Parker docs that contradicts what I am saying in this post?

 

Well, I have the 1937 catalog and it doesn't say anything about a lifetime guarantee. But you said, "Parker vac $8.75 and up was Lifetime guaranted since 1937," so you must have Parker documentation from 1937 stating this. Please post this 1937 documentation. Thanks.

 

What attribute have the 1937-38 pens with chevron band that doesn´t have the those years pens with 3 rings cap for to be significantly more expensive?

 

Which models specifically are you comparing from the 1937 catalog?

 

Which models specifically are you comparing from the 1938 catalog?

 

If Parker not recognized the Lifetime of non-Lifetime pens trought the cap band, how you do think they recognize this?

 

Which pairs of cataloged Vacumatic models specifically are identical except for the cap band and price in 1937?

 

Which pairs of cataloged Vacumatic models specifically are identical except for the cap band and price in 1938?

 

As you can see in photo catalog, Why did prices significantly different in similar pens except band or rings?

 

Which pairs of Vacumatic models differ significantly in price but are identical except for the cap band in the 1937 catalog?

 

Which pairs of Vacumatic models differ significantly in price but are identical except for the cap band in the 1938 catalog?

 

--Daniel

[Brian-McQueen]

1)... after you say me thanks for send you free the 1939 Catalog. It is not like this?

I really do appreciate you sending it to me. Please don't think otherwise. Thank you, sincerely. I'm sorry I never received it. I would like to have a copy.

 

1 and 2) No, no. I was asking and you have not responded yet -quid pro quo, now my turn to ask-:

I have already answered most of these questions the best I can. Please read my post from 11/17, 12:11 PM GMT-5 (post #82 in this thread). I want to know your thoughts. That's how a discussion works. For fun and clarity I will ask them again.

 

A/ Among the abundant documentation that you say to have, do you have Parker docs that contradicts what I am saying in this post? Only a rare pen? ¿No more pens? No Parker docs?

I may have documentation which counters your claims. I was hoping you would answer my question about "Vacumatic Band" pens first.

Also, if you know anything about the scientific method, or mathematical proofs, you would know that it only takes one example to disprove a hypothesis. So, one pen is honestly enough.

 

B/ What attribute have the 1937-38 pens with chevron band that doesn´t have the those years pens with 3 rings cap for to be significantly more expensive?

This is my third time answering this question. My answer is "I do not know. I think it is because the models are a new model. Isn't the newest model iPad more expensive than the older model?"

 

C/ If Parker not recognized the Lifetime of non-Lifetime pens trought the cap band, how you do think they recognize this?

Prior to the introduction of the Blue Diamond, they recognize the Lifetime Guarantee by model. It is no secret that Parker had a Lifetime Guarantee on Debutantes, Majors, Slender Maximas, and Senior Maximas.

This is the second time I have answered this question. When they mention the Lifetime Guarantee in the 1938 catalog, they clearly state which pen models have the Lifetime Guarantee. Parker could tell which pens were guaranteed by knowing which model they were. One of the ways they knew which model it was is by the cap band style.

 

D/ As you can see in photo catalog, Why did prices significantly different in similar pens except band or rings?

This is the same question as question A. My answer is the same. "I do not know. I think it is because the models are a new model. Isn't the newest model iPad more expensive than the older model?"

 

When you give me thanks for 1939 catalog (if it is true that not received, it's not my fault if you have not properly configured your mail) and answer this above mentioned questions you will be entitled to ask me questions.

This is the second time I've thanked you for the catalog. The first thanks was given in the Private Message before you even sent the catalog to me.

 

 

I need no entitlement to ask you questions. However, in the interest of furthering this discussion, I have humored you. Do you find my answers satisfactory?

Edited November 17, 2015 by BrianMcQueen

[FarmBoy]

I think I'm going to switch to team Sheaffer. All I need to figure out there is what the damn dot means.

[kirchh]

I think I'm going to switch to team Sheaffer. All I need to figure out there is what the damn dot means.

 

You might be surprised about some aspects of the Lifetime story...

 

--Daniel

[FarmBoy]

 

You might be surprised about some aspects of the Lifetime story...

 

--Daniel

Yeah, some of the stories seem to miss the bulls' eye...

[JonSzanto]

Yeah, some of the stories seem to miss the bulls' eye...

 

A reply that is 100% on target.

Edited November 18, 2015 by JonSzanto

[joss]

Can I, as an interested bystander with admittedly few documentation, try to summarize the controversy?

 

1. Facts:

 

- in 1937, Parker introduces chevron bands on some of their top line Vacumatic pens. There is no evidence of a Lifetime Guarantee in 1937.

 

- in 1938, Parker publishes a dealer catalog n° 5435 that mentions on page 6 (shown in reply #51 of this thread):

"Major and Maxima Vacumatic pens priced at $ 8.75 and $10.00 are Guaranteed for Life of the owner except against loss and wilful damage....".

This text is accompanied by pictures of Senior Maxima, Maxima, Major and Debutante Vacs, all priced $ 8.75 or $10.00 and all have caps with chevron bands (no cap rings).

From the page text it follows that Maxima and Major pens, but not the Debutante, are Guaranteed for Life. All have chevron cap bands. Nevertheless, the page pictures show the Debutante in the upper group of the "Guaranteed for Life" pens. This is at least confusing.

 

- The same catalog page also mentions:

"Vacumatic pens priced at $ 5.00 and $7.50 are guaranteed against defective materials and workmanship. ..."

This text is accompanied by pictures of Standard and Slender vacs, all priced $ 7.50 and all have cap rings (no chevron bands). From the page text it follows that these lower priced pens, which may have cap rings as pictured, are not Guaranteed for Life.

 

- Blue Diamond Vacumatics appear in (late?) 1939. These pens are fully advertised to the public as having a Lifetime Guarantee.

(text edited according to Brian's comment #109 below).

 

Do we agree on these facts?

 

2. Lazards assumption:

 

The chevron band was the discriminant factor for Parker to recognize pre-blue diamond Lifetime Guaranteed Vacumatics, hence the higher price of the chevron band pens.

 

 

3. Thoughts:

 

- until now we only have assumptions but no proof that a chevron band is linked to Lifetime Guarantee. Possibly this assumption is true, possibly not. Possibly the wider chevron cap band was simply a visual upgrade of the already 'older' Vacumatic model with the 'older' cap rings.

 

-- what about the confusing Debutante in the 1938 dealer catalog page: text does not mention it as being guaranteed while it is presented in the 'guaranteed for life' group.

 

- the lifetime guarantee that is mentioned in the 1938 catalog is a confusing matter to me. If Parker actually gave a Lifetime Guarantee on their higher priced pens, why did they communicate that only to their dealers (evidenced in the 1938 catalog) but not to the public (eg via advertisements)? Why would Parker keep such a guarantee secret to the 1938 public when their main competitor was fully advertising its white dot lifetime guarantee since 15 years? Is there evidence (invoices, pen shop window advertisement material, ...) that the Lifetime Guarantee was actually communicated and/or issued to the public before 1939 (first appearance of blue diamond in official Parker advertisements)?

Edited November 18, 2015 by joss

[Brian-McQueen]

Can I, as an interested bystander with admittedly few documentation, try to summarize the controversy?

Thank you for taking the time to try and steer us back on track.

 

- Blue Diamond Vacumatics appear in (late?) 1939. These pens are fully advertised to the public as having a Lifetime Guarantee. The Blue Diamond Vacumatics, having the lifetime guarantee, all have chevron cap bands.

 

Do we agree on these facts?

Not all Blue Diamond pens have chevron bands, as we have seen in this thread. Otherwise, I agree with the facts you presented.

Blue Diamond ads start appearing around June 1939, I believe.

Edited November 18, 2015 by BrianMcQueen

[joss]

Not all Blue Diamond pens have chevron bands, as we have seen in this thread. Otherwise, I agree with the facts you presented.

 

Thanks Brian. I was a bit .. lost .. in the overload of information but I have edited the text above according to your comment.

[Brian-McQueen]

Thanks Brian. I was a bit .. lost .. in the overload of information but I have edited the text above according to your comment.

Still not quite right. I would just remove the whole sentence to be safe and factual.

[joss]

Still not quite right. I would just remove the whole sentence to be safe and factual.

OK, done. The less statements the better!

[Brian-McQueen]

3. Thoughts:

-- what about the confusing Debutante in the 1938 dealer catalog page: text does not mention it as being guaranteed while it is presented in the 'guaranteed for life' group.

I think the Debutante is probably in that Lifetime Guarantee grouping since it is priced at $8.75. The text doesn't specifically call out the Senior Maxima either, so maybe it was just a space and text saving method. The Debutante is above the line split in page, and is on the "Guaranteed for Life" side of the line

Edited November 18, 2015 by BrianMcQueen

[kirchh]

The text doesn't specifically call out the Senior Maxima either...

 

I think it's reasonable to understand that "Maxima" in the text refers to the Maxima family of pens.

 

--Daniel

[Lazard 20]

Brian, hundreds of thousands of ringed vacumatic between 1937 and 1948 and you have found only 1 or 2 copies of dubious fulfill the conditions Chevron cap band = Lifetime and Rings cap = Non-lifetime?

Edited November 20, 2015 by Lazard 20

[Lazard 20]

If someone likes to read Spanish, they can do it about this matter by way of entertaining, fun and uninterrupted here:

 

http://estilograficas.mforos.com/1176620/11573936-la-gestacion-del-diamante-azul/?pag=3#112999989

[FarmBoy]

My contact at the PCA says they have not yet received an article for review and publication that discusses these matters.

 

Perhaps it will come soon.

[Brian-McQueen]

Brian, hundreds of thousands of ringed vacumatic between 1937 and 1948 and you have found only 1 or 2 copies of dubious fulfill the conditions Chevron cap band = Lifetime and Rings cap = Non-lifetime?

It only takes ONE piece of evidence to overturn a hypothesis. My pens are not dubious evidence. They are well-known original models to serious Vacumatic collectors.

 

I am still waiting on answers to my questions, if you would like to answer them.

Edited November 20, 2015 by BrianMcQueen

[kirchh]

Lazard -

 

See this post for some unanswered questions about your claims. If you've decided you're not going to back up your statements by addressing these questions, just say that and I won't pursue it further.

 

Thanks.

--Daniel

[joss]

If someone likes to read Spanish, they can do it about this matter by way of entertaining, fun and uninterrupted here:

 

http://estilograficas.mforos.com/1176620/11573936-la-gestacion-del-diamante-azul/?pag=3#112999989

 

I understand that you entertain the Spanish public with a fictive scenario on the history of Parker's lifetime guarantee.

The same story as above but then in Spanish.

Really?