Jump to content
Classifieds is broken, please do not submit any new ads ×

Apache Sunset Shading Issues?


maja88g
 Share

Recommended Posts

Hi All :)

 

I heard so much about Noodlers Apache Sunset's amazing shading properties from egg yellow to sunset red etc... But I just cant seem to get any decent shading out of this ink. I have tried a F, M, B, Flex and 6.0mm calligraphy nibs, and while the larger nibs provide some shading it's nothing special, similar to any standard ink. I have not gotten nearly the amount of shading or colour variation as most people seem to achieve on FPN with this ink. I really wanted to experience the shading and colour variation. This is really confusing me because I have not seen one review of this ink where the shading and colour variation is not praised. I have tried different grades of paper, all the way from tracing paper to 200gsm artist paper - with the same result. I'm thinking that maybe I got a bad bottle/batch? Has anyone else experienced something similar? If so, can anyone suggest a way for me to improve the colour variation and shading? I have attached a picture of what kind of shading I managed to get - maybe i'm this is how it is supposed to look? Any ideas/thoughts?

 

post-121868-0-60214000-1428402657_thumb.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 30
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

  • PatientType

    3

  • amberleadavis

    2

  • Intellidepth

    9

  • maja88g

    12

The ink you display in your post does not have the look of Noodler's Apache Sunset. Apache Sunset has a LOT more red to it.

The first thing I'd try would be to give your ink bottle a good, extended shake and see if a refill of the pen delivers a different result. Ink can separate and settle in a bottle. When that happens, the ink can appear to fade or looks its color characteristics. A couple of years ago I had a bottle of Old Manhattan Blue that I'd had for awhile. At one point the ink inexplicably turned into a flat, lifeless blue/grayish color. I thought the bottle had gone bad or that my recollections of the ink as a bold blue were mistaken. I'd read somewhere that it wasn't good to shake bottles of ink so had never done that. However, before throwing out my Old Manhattan, I went ahead and vigorously shook the bottle figuring that I had nothing to loose. Lo and behold, the next fill of the ink was the rich dark blue that I'd first admired.

The second possibility is that you simply got a bottle at the end of an ink run where some of the pigment needed for the Apache Sunset color mix didn't get included. Simply stated, "a bad bottle". If you got the ink from a local brick & mortar outlet, you could return it for a new bottle. If you got it mail order, shipping will cost probably cost more than the ink is worth and you may as well use this bottle for highlighter or do your own mix. You won't have Apache Sunset when you're done but you could add a little of a Noodler's bright red ink to it and have a bottle of usable reddish-yellow fountain pen ink.

Edited by PatientType
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I should add as well, that Noodler's has inks that cover the red/yellow spectrum. I have Apache Sunset but tend to use Habanero more because the mix is a redder combination with yellow highlights as opposed to yellow with red highlights. And, then there is Cayenne which has even more red to it.

See here...

http://noodlersink.com/noodlers-ink-color/

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Welcome to FPN :).

 

First caveat: I don't have Apache in a bottle. I do, however, have a Noodler's CMYK mix that looks awfully similar to Apache Sunset and performs the same in the shady department.

 

Your sample, compared to the many I've seen online, is lacking in magenta. It has some, just not enough.

 

If it were me, I'd discuss it with your supplier and try to get a replacement. If this is not an option, or if freight outweighs the benefit, read on.

 

The ratios of ink I use to create a very similar ink to Noodler's Apache Sunset are 3.5mL of Noodler's Yellow to 1mL of Noodler's Shah's Rose. Rather than adding a 'red' (which includes yellow) to your ink, the Shah's Rose magenta is a purer base that contributes to red tones and is used in creating red inks along with yellow. You already have enough yellow.

 

I estimate that your bottle (based on your online pic thru my ipad screen) has around half the amount of magenta required. If you have a full 3oz bottle (88mL), I'd estimate you'll need around 12-13mL of Noodler's Shah's Rose to 'correct' the bottle.

 

So, do you have Shah's Rose sitting around near you in a bottle? (It's very pink!). If not, maybe one of the suppliers of ink samples can be asked as to whether they can offer a more competitive sample price from to get 12-13mL... Or maybe you could do a wanted to buy ad in the classifieds here and offer an ink swap :)

 

Try to return it first as an incorrect batch formulation.

Edited by Intellidepth

Noodler's Konrad Acrylics (normal+Da Luz custom flex) ~ Lamy AL-Stars/Vista F/M/1.1 ~ Handmade Barry Roberts Dayacom M ~ Waterman 32 1/2, F semi-flex nib ~ Conklin crescent, EF super-flex ~ Aikin Lambert dip pen EEF super-flex ~ Aikin Lambert dip pen semi-flex M ~ Jinhao X450s ~ Pilot Custom Heritage 912 Posting Nib ~ Sailor 1911 Profit 21k Rhodium F. Favourite inks: Iroshizuku blends, Noodler's CMYK blends.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks for all the suggestions :)

 

I purchased it from the States with a whole bunch of other items so that I could consolidated shipping costs. I'm in South Africa so shipping alone cost me about 97 dollars, this excludes tax and handling fees etc... Based on this returning the product is not really a viable option, it would cost me more then the actual product.

 

@PatientType - When I get home i'm gonna shake the hell out of that bottle, maybe i'll get lucky :):)

 

@shrey - Lol that was the look I was going for....

 

@Intellidepth - Unfortunately I wont be able to purchase additional Noodlers easily, but I do have Diamine Hope Pink and Noodlers Cactus Fruit Eel... should the shaking not work(touch wood) do you think they could work as a similar substitute? Not sure if you have ever used either ink before?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

(Just in case you think magenta might make your ink pink...)

 

Here's a pic of dipped pens done just now with the CMYK blend mentioned above. To my eye, the ink is a little yellower (paler) and the orange tones less intense. (I use an older iPhone as a camera.) The shading is just as striking though.

 

- Top is a vintage dip nib. Very wet laydown of ink - was still drying when photo was taken.

 

- Centre is Noodler's Konrad flexi. Because it was dipped rather than inked properly, it's writing wetter than normal. You can still see a bit of shading separation at the tops of the rows of s-bends. These normally occur half-way through the s-bends if I have the pen inked properly.

 

- Bottom is a Jinhao X450 with medium-ish wettish nib, also dipped. All those squiggly lines to the left were done with the Jinhao without pressure and show shading the best tonight.

 

Anyhow, good luck, one way or another :)

post-119270-0-20611800-1428412094.jpg

Noodler's Konrad Acrylics (normal+Da Luz custom flex) ~ Lamy AL-Stars/Vista F/M/1.1 ~ Handmade Barry Roberts Dayacom M ~ Waterman 32 1/2, F semi-flex nib ~ Conklin crescent, EF super-flex ~ Aikin Lambert dip pen EEF super-flex ~ Aikin Lambert dip pen semi-flex M ~ Jinhao X450s ~ Pilot Custom Heritage 912 Posting Nib ~ Sailor 1911 Profit 21k Rhodium F. Favourite inks: Iroshizuku blends, Noodler's CMYK blends.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Diamine Hope Pink and Noodlers Cactus Fruit Eel... should the shaking not work(touch wood) do you think they could work as a similar substitute? Not sure if you have ever used either ink before?

I haven't used either. But don't let that stop you experimenting with 3.5mL of your 'Apache' to, say, 0.5mL Diamine Hope Pink to start with :). Just don't experiment with the whole bottle! The main reason for experimenting with just a little of each is that inks from different manufacturers can have weird reactions when they are mixed (precipitate, goop, solidification). But may not and might work just fine.

 

In that large stash of items you ordered, did you happen to include 5mL vials?

 

Mix up just these few mL, test the colour with a skewer on paper (or dip nib if you have one) to see if it's about right or might need more or less. Keep it in a tiny sealed container (ideally a vial) for a few days to a week and see if any strange interaction occurs between the inks. Search FPN for Diamine/Noodler's mixes for interactions while u wait. If no interaction appears, ink up a cheap pen and see how it fares.

 

Based on chromatography, Diamine Hope Pink is far closer to Shah's Rose than Noodler's Cactus Fruit Eel. Chromatography for Hope Pink shows it's a pure colour ink, so it should work pretty well colour-wise. It appears a little lighter in colour than Shah's Rose, so you may need slightly more.

 

Noodler's Cactus Fruit Eel is not a good choice a) because the colour includes blue tones which would muddy the ink, and b ) the Eel range of inks use different additives in them as compared to the standard inks like Shah's Rose. It is more likely to potentially have a weird inky reaction.

 

Good luck, and have fun experimenting.

Edit: check out this thread. https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php/topic/40629-noodlers-cmyk-color-mixes/?p=3253428

Edited by Intellidepth

Noodler's Konrad Acrylics (normal+Da Luz custom flex) ~ Lamy AL-Stars/Vista F/M/1.1 ~ Handmade Barry Roberts Dayacom M ~ Waterman 32 1/2, F semi-flex nib ~ Conklin crescent, EF super-flex ~ Aikin Lambert dip pen EEF super-flex ~ Aikin Lambert dip pen semi-flex M ~ Jinhao X450s ~ Pilot Custom Heritage 912 Posting Nib ~ Sailor 1911 Profit 21k Rhodium F. Favourite inks: Iroshizuku blends, Noodler's CMYK blends.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Intellidepth - That looks amazing! If I manage to get a result like that I will ridiculously happy.

 

I did, lots and lots of samples. Will defiantly mix some up tonight to see if I manage to get the result above. The subsequent results will be promptly posed :)

 

Thanks so much for all the ideas and pretty detailed ratios.

Edited by maja88g
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sooo I finished mixing and the best I managed to get was:

 

post-121868-0-91449800-1428430661_thumb.jpg

 

And even then - this was a dip pen, so there an inconsistent flow of ink. In a normal fountain pen shading is not really prominent anymore. I basically just managed to change the colour from a pretty flat dark yellow to a pretty flat orange.. ;(

 

Shaking the bottle did not work for me in this case either.

 

From the looks of things its destined to the back of the drawer and badly thought out colour experiments... I did make a really pretty green though by adding majestic blue. (Still no shading)

post-121868-0-69334300-1428431313_thumb.jpg

 

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Do me a favor: take a little of your new, Hope Pinked orange and dilute it with a bit with water. I don't think it'll work, based on what you've shown here, but it did sort of work for me in the past.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi maja, in post #10 with your dip pen, I can see splitting in the ink between the two colours which gives me hope. Look at the upstrokes on the wetter letters. The word 'quick' also shows some of the range of colour (looking from left to right) that the ink you've blended can achieve.

 

If you are ok with the contrast you can see in the splitting, read on. Otherwise... Nice colours :) I'd use them.

 

Optimal shading needs optimal pen setups. It also tends to need quality fountain pen paper such as Rhodia - cheaper absorbent papers that feather show less or no result because the ink doesn't have time to pool before it gets absorbed or dries. My example was on Rhodia which is a very smooth low-absorbent paper. If you have good fp paper somewhere, give it a go on that. I'd be happy to snail mail you a few sheets if you don't have any. Don't toss out that blend yet.

 

Regarding pen setups, in a fountain pen the nib and feed setup needs to be on the wetter side. If is on the dryer side, shading disappears and the ink displays generally only the lightest colour you see in the splitting. If the pen is set up too wet, the ink tends to display only the darkest colour you see in the splitting.

 

We seek a setup that is between these two - not quite enough ink being released on a downstroke to make a stroke entirely dark but a little less so that the surface tension of the ink causes the ink to split, with the excess automatically gathering up to itself in a pool toward the base of each of the downstrokes. Upstrokes in the right setup will show the lightest colour.

 

Cursive vs print: in a slightly dryer setup, cursive will only tend to show the light colour. Print may show a little shading right at the bottom of letters. In an optimal setup (especially an optimal flexi setup), cursive will show shading, and print will have half of each stroke shaded.

 

Dip nibs perform differently with regard to fp ink. In my very limited experience, unless I change the viscosity of the ink for its use, my dip nibs lay down far too much ink and pretty much only show the dark colour. I was quite impressed with the variation in colour from left to right that you achieved from yours.

 

Do you have any viscosity modifier on hand for your dip nibs? If you do, add a touch. Then when writing, slow down a little more than normal at the base of each letter to allow a little more ink to be released at the base, then speed up again on your upstroke.

 

In the ink forums here you'll find lots of ideas about how to optimise shading. These are just a few ideas to play with.

Noodler's Konrad Acrylics (normal+Da Luz custom flex) ~ Lamy AL-Stars/Vista F/M/1.1 ~ Handmade Barry Roberts Dayacom M ~ Waterman 32 1/2, F semi-flex nib ~ Conklin crescent, EF super-flex ~ Aikin Lambert dip pen EEF super-flex ~ Aikin Lambert dip pen semi-flex M ~ Jinhao X450s ~ Pilot Custom Heritage 912 Posting Nib ~ Sailor 1911 Profit 21k Rhodium F. Favourite inks: Iroshizuku blends, Noodler's CMYK blends.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just one other thought since you've gone to all this trouble. An email costs you nothing. You might contact Luxury Brands, Noodler's distributor, with an attachment showing your writing sample. Indicate that you're somewhat disappointed in the performance of their product having read a number of good reviews on FPN.

There's some chance that they'll send you a free replacement. I've gotten excellent support from Luxury Brands in the past in regard to issues with pen lines they represent. You're an overseas customer buying from a US retailer, which I'm sure they'd like to encourage. Perhaps more importantly, FPN has a huge readership in the fountain pen community and all of the businesses that cater to those of us that consume these specialty products live and die on their reputation. Having you on here talking about having received a dud bottle of ink doesn't help product sales.

It's not your fault that you bought a shading yellow/orange/red ink and got lemon yellow instead. And, really, its not the fault of the retailer. How would he know that a bottle of ink he's received and sold is defective?

The person there is John Gillett, and his email is john@luxurybrandsusa.com.

Edited by PatientType
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I appears to me that your pen may not be wet enough to put down the amount of ink that the ink needs to shade.

If you look at the word "quick," you can see that the q is redder than the k. So you are getting shading. More red where you have more ink and more yellow where there is less ink. The pen needs to put down enough ink to get the red, yet be dry enough to get the light color. And this is not as easy as one may think. I have a pen that will shade with Sheaffer turquoise but not shade with Cross/Pelikan blue.

San Francisco Pen Show - August 28-30, 2020 - Redwood City, California

www.SFPenShow.com

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Intellidepth - We don't have Rhodia available here in South Africa as yet, there was a thread that had a promising email, but I have not heard back from them with regards to the paper yet... With regards to the addition of a viscosity modifier - I'm not even sure what would be compatible with a water based product? I have never has any trouble with the paper i'm using, I can't compare it to Rhodia as I have never tried it, but in most cases it rarely bleeds/feathers with flex writing. My dip nib tends to cause feathering and bleedthrough because the nib is un-tipped and much sharper. Also it puts down much more ink than a regular fountain pen. Perhaps I will upload the mix when written on art paper. I would love a few sheets of Rhodia if its not to much trouble?

 

@Intellidepth, @ac12 - I have been trying to keep the pen standard, the two pens that give me the most shading in my inks in general are: Noodlers Konrad, Jinhao X750 and of course my dip nib. I have been dipping both pens to see if they give me any colour variation, but so far no luck. I could try a finer pen but I felt that if a B-M nib did not produce any shading a finer one would not fair any better. After reading the above i'll try with my pilot MR and Edison(F) as well.

 

@PatientType - I really hope this does not come across as bashing the brand, nor as negativity on my side. I have a few Noodlers inks that I adore BSIAR(Original Formula), Air Corps, X-Feather(amazing for calligraphy), etc... Nor do I believe the dud bottle was on purpose - from either the seller or supplier. On my part I was just hoping for an easier way to improve the ink without putting the seller or Noodlers out - because as I said shipping to SA is not cheap as all, especially since you have to provide full tracking on parcels or they just 'disapear'. Additionally I don't feel that it was intentional or a consistent problem. But I do see your point with regards to this thread being public, and as such it my affect the company if some people don't take the whole thread into context. I will email John and point him to this thread because of this. :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Maja, happy to send you some. PM me your address details. Airmail from my area usually takes about 3 weeks to reach the US - no idea about South Africa.

 

Regarding viscosity, gum arabic is used by some people to adjust fp ink for dip nibs but it can't be used in fp's. I haven't tried it yet. Check out the ink threads for details.

 

I have, however, done experiments with Xanthan, which can go in fp's for at least short periods of time (a week or two) and also be used for dip nibs too. Check it out here.

https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php/topic/283167-glitteratipearlmica-and-e415/

Post #38 will be the one of most interest.

Xanthan is available in a powdered form in the gluten free section of Australian supermarkets. It's a food additive.

Edited by Intellidepth

Noodler's Konrad Acrylics (normal+Da Luz custom flex) ~ Lamy AL-Stars/Vista F/M/1.1 ~ Handmade Barry Roberts Dayacom M ~ Waterman 32 1/2, F semi-flex nib ~ Conklin crescent, EF super-flex ~ Aikin Lambert dip pen EEF super-flex ~ Aikin Lambert dip pen semi-flex M ~ Jinhao X450s ~ Pilot Custom Heritage 912 Posting Nib ~ Sailor 1911 Profit 21k Rhodium F. Favourite inks: Iroshizuku blends, Noodler's CMYK blends.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Intellidepth - I have seen that powder in specialty online shops. I should be able to get my hands on some - the sparkly powder idea has me very intrigued - but that's going off topic.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The thread you really want while you are off topic is here. https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php/topic/277454-experimenting-with-gold-powder/

No, I did not just enable another FPNer into the glitter ink world. LOL.

Noodler's Konrad Acrylics (normal+Da Luz custom flex) ~ Lamy AL-Stars/Vista F/M/1.1 ~ Handmade Barry Roberts Dayacom M ~ Waterman 32 1/2, F semi-flex nib ~ Conklin crescent, EF super-flex ~ Aikin Lambert dip pen EEF super-flex ~ Aikin Lambert dip pen semi-flex M ~ Jinhao X450s ~ Pilot Custom Heritage 912 Posting Nib ~ Sailor 1911 Profit 21k Rhodium F. Favourite inks: Iroshizuku blends, Noodler's CMYK blends.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 


@Intellidepth, @ac12 - I have been trying to keep the pen standard, the two pens that give me the most shading in my inks in general are: Noodlers Konrad, Jinhao X750 and of course my dip nib. I have been dipping both pens to see if they give me any colour variation, but so far no luck. I could try a finer pen but I felt that if a B-M nib did not produce any shading a finer one would not fair any better. After reading the above i'll try with my pilot MR and Edison(F) as well.

 

In my experience, if you want to write with a specific ink in a specific pen, you will sometimes have to adjust the nib to increase (make wetter) or decrease (make dryer) the ink flow. I have done this with many of my pens. In most cases, the pen is too dry for the ink that I want to use, and I have to increase the ink flow.

San Francisco Pen Show - August 28-30, 2020 - Redwood City, California

www.SFPenShow.com

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share



  • Most Contributions

    1. amberleadavis
      amberleadavis
      37966
    2. PAKMAN
      PAKMAN
      31099
    3. Ghost Plane
      Ghost Plane
      28220
    4. jar
      jar
      26101
    5. wimg
      wimg
      25602
  • Upcoming Events

  • Blog Comments

    • Texas42
      Dang. You are a great friend!   One comment as a relative newcomer would be within the cleaning section: issues/differences in cleaning vacuum filler, piston filler in addition to cartridge/converter. I just cleaned out my Pilot 823 and while it wasn't particularly difficult I was a little paranoid about the drops of water that I could not get out. Perhaps this is something you are already including.   Anyway, great project and very thoughtful of you. I know it's a project fo
    • Splat
      Ah Ruaidhri ya wee heid banger, you do indeed have an Irishman’s way wid dose words now. I’ll be from outer Aberdeenshire up in the blizzard riven braes of the Grampians.  Amateur medicine and surgery is it? Well what noble aspirations you do possess, we need to encourage such noble experimentations.  I pondered on leaving my own battered shell to science, but, until I read your pearls of wisdom and lament, I had comedown on the side of leaving my body to Findus frozen foods.  However, your rema
    • austollie
      Hi Smug Dill,   Nice project.  If it were me, I'd cover stuff like: - nib types available, i.e. styles, materials (SS vs gold), flex vs nails; - filling systems (I love the "thingie" comment) and how once can use them in practice (e.g. fill cartridges with a syringe); - pen body materials and their consequences (pen not balanced of too heavy and big for the hand); - and, whilst you've made it clear that you do not like vintage pens, a discussion of these beyond "I d
    • A Smug Dill
      Thanks for your input! Yes, not putting wood in the list of body materials warranting a mention was an oversight. I love pens with wooden bodies, but my main concern, or chagrin, is that I have not come across a wooden-bodied pen with a wooden cap that seals well. Actually, there is one, but it isn't really wood per se: the Pilot Custom Kaede's maple body is resin impregnated. All other wooden pens I have can dry out while capped and undisturbed; that includes several Platinum #3776 models.
    • amk
      That looks pretty good. You might want to add wood as a material (with its weakness of staining) and mention urushi. And under ergonomic considerations, the size of section (slender pens vs chunky pens), and shape of section, and 'disturbances' such as the Lamy 2000 'ears' and Pilot Capless clip getting in the way might be worth mentioning. Also possibly a general section on things you can do yourself with a bit of care, with a bit of practice, and things that are strictly "don't try this a
  • Chatbox

    You don't have permission to chat.
    Load More
  • Files

  • Today's Birthdays

    1. 13R14N
      13R14N
      (55 years old)
    2. ACX
      ACX
      (65 years old)
    3. Baenlynn
      Baenlynn
      (38 years old)
    4. beardedpens
      beardedpens
      (27 years old)
    5. Behike54
      Behike54





×
×
  • Create New...