"MB Precious resin" vs a "Glock" pistol

[Samovar]

The Glock torture test is really intense! Ok, I bought a lotto ticket tonight, If I win, I will throw a MB testing party with a lot of liquor and a trusty sober scientist or the other way around.

 

The gun question is really interesting, but Canada is not the best place for gun collectors. The law is really strict and I don't want to go through the trouble.

 

OK, anybody rich or crazy enough to start the ultimate MB test?

 

My 146 is so pretty in the pen rack, so safe... I'll reach, well for another pen... it's still jinx.

 

Samovar

 

 

 

[SMG]

My 146 from the 80's is definitely injection molded, I can see a parting line in the barrel threads for the cap. If it is not Celluloid, as the vintage pens are, I am 100% sure that it is injection molded.

 

Cheers,

SG

[Metric]

With a thread title like "MB Precious resin vs a Glock pistol" I expected to see large slabs of precious resin in thrilling (but ultimately tragic) "before and after" photographs with the Glock kind of sitting ominously in the background. Endless debates over the fairness of such a test would have been forthcoming, as would accusations of "the ultimate MB bashing thread."

 

As for the Glock itself, I too must plug the powerful Glock 20 for all-around service and durability, though a fine semi-custom 1911 is probably the ultimate combination of slick handling and supurb accuracy in a combat pistol -- the modern day equivalent of the nobleman's rapier.

[georges zaslavsky]

QUOTE (SMG @ Mar 21 2007, 11:35 PM)

Well to each his own. I can only say that you do have great taste in weaponry. Those Para Ords are Canadian made. 5000 rounds through a 1911 Colt, not a Para Ord, is nowhere near the life expectancy of a Glock or HK. And I quote "The FBI tests did document 50,000 rounds through the Glock .40 S&W without a breakdown, and that's an impressive performance. " That my friend is a factor of 10 over your Uncle's piece (no disrespect to him whatsoever). Glock reported 300,000 rounds through one gun without failure, but this has not been substantiated. I do like tuned 1911's more so than Glocks for IPSC which is not real life, but then what arena are we talking about? If I were going into the sand and mud I would carry what I knew I could rely on to get my butt back to my family. I would carry a Glock, preferrably a model 20, but most likely the 21 in .40SW. 10mm rounds are a bit hard to come by these days, even if they are more effective than the .40SW. If I were going to be posted overseas with a NATO or CDN mission, I would try to get my hands on a Glock 19. Might be difficult to make it fly though, I think our esteemed government still makes our soldiers carry the Browning HP. As for the "best" 1911, I think Kimber fans would disagree with that. I don't know which is "best" Kimber, Para Ord, Glock, HK, CZ, Baretta, SIG, etc etc. There is no one "best" gun, each one has pros and cons for each specific real life role. As a middle of the road day in and day out carry piece, I just like the Glock. I like the handling, I actually like the trigger, I like the Condition Zero ability. What do I know, it has been 12-13 years since I fired a handgun. BTW, it was a Glock. Cheers, SG Glock torture test

Canadian or not, they are no less god than glocks. Para Ords are used by the FBI HRT (hostage rescue team), canadian and american law enforcement agencies (police and detectives) and also armies.

Para ord offers a gun that is very well comparable to the glock 21, the p16-40 with a capacity of 17 shots .I have no worries about para ords durability or reliability. Torture tests or not, the 1911a1 design was in service during 75 years in the US Army and it went from the 1st world war till the operations in Panama in 1989 where it was being slowly replaced by the Beretta 92. The 1911a1 was also used in the most hostile environnements so I think it has proven enough of how reliable it was

Fact also is that the Beretta 92 jammed when it was used in the 1st Gulf War and soliders used the 1911a1 again. From all the auto pistols I have fired, the one that gave me the most consistent groups and extreme reliability, it was the para ord p14-45.

[SMG]

Georges, I am not disputing that the Para Ord is a great weapon. You didn't get that I am a Canadian, I was pointing out the Para Ord is a Canadian manufactured weapon as that is somewhat of a interesting scenario with those fine guns. Para Ord, one of, if not the best 1911 pattern gun is made in a country where we cannot purchase one. We are not allowed to own handguns which have a capacity of more than 7 shots. If the gun frame is capable of more than 7, the magazines MUST be welded up so that one cannot stuff more than 6 rounds in one.

 

BTW FBI HRT uses Springfield Armory guns not Para Ord.

 

I agree that the 1911 has a prestigious background. I do think that it is a very well designed weapon, for one which was originally penned 100 years ago. We have learned much about the design of the 1911, enough to make it the preminent race or sporting gun for bowling pin matches, IPSC, and a number of other sports. For those purposes it cannot be beat. But, again those are highly customized guns which have had thousands of dollars of modifications done to them. They feed, fire and extract one type of ammo perfectly, and will choke on anything else. A bone stock Glock has had the benefit of learning from what small deficiencies there are in the Browning design of the 1911 and incorporated measures to negate the effects of the design flaws. Double recoil springs, delayed blowback, polymer frame which absorbs shock on the gun and shooter, exceedingly hard and stain resistant coatings, ploygonal rifling, throated chamber from the factory. These traits are all things which were learned from looking at the designs of many many combat handguns. Heck, throated chambers in the Glock is a direct answer to the problem with the original 1911 design. The original model 1911 would not feed anything except military spec hardball. Any time the user tried to load anything other than hardball, failures where the slide would not go into battery would abound. If I recall correctly, the 1911a1 solved that problem. You see, design is like evolution.

 

My argument is that a bone stock 1911 pattern pistol will require major service long before a bone stock Glock does. That is it, end of story. The shock buffers in a .45 1911 run on full power loads will wear out within the 5000 round area and require replacement. Barrel links have been known to wear loose before 10,000 rounds. Extractors break or become weak. Take a look at the design of a 1911 extractor vs the design of the Glock. Tell me that you cannot see which one will be more robust.

 

Face it, we both like different guns. I am not going to convince you that the Glock is better, and I am pretty sure that you cannot convince me that the 1911 is better.

 

Heck, this thread was about MB pens and the materials used to make them. If you want to continue this, please feel free to post your opinions (which with the lack of imperical data on the subject is what they are) in the current thread on the chatter page regarding handguns.

 

Peace,

SG

[georges zaslavsky]

QUOTE (SMG @ Mar 23 2007, 01:16 AM)

Georges, I am not disputing that the Para Ord is a great weapon. You didn't get that I am a Canadian, I was pointing out the Para Ord is a Canadian manufactured weapon as that is somewhat of a interesting scenario with those fine guns. Para Ord, one of, if not the best 1911 pattern gun is made in a country where we cannot purchase one. We are not allowed to own handguns which have a capacity of more than 7 shots. If the gun frame is capable of more than 7, the magazines MUST be welded up so that one cannot stuff more than 6 rounds in one. BTW FBI HRT uses Springfield Armory guns not Para Ord. I agree that the 1911 has a prestigious background. I do think that it is a very well designed weapon, for one which was originally penned 100 years ago. We have learned much about the design of the 1911, enough to make it the preminent race or sporting gun for bowling pin matches, IPSC, and a number of other sports. For those purposes it cannot be beat. But, again those are highly customized guns which have had thousands of dollars of modifications done to them. They feed, fire and extract one type of ammo perfectly, and will choke on anything else. A bone stock Glock has had the benefit of learning from what small deficiencies there are in the Browning design of the 1911 and incorporated measures to negate the effects of the design flaws. Double recoil springs, delayed blowback, polymer frame which absorbs shock on the gun and shooter, exceedingly hard and stain resistant coatings, ploygonal rifling, throated chamber from the factory. These traits are all things which were learned from looking at the designs of many many combat handguns. Heck, throated chambers in the Glock is a direct answer to the problem with the original 1911 design. The original model 1911 would not feed anything except military spec hardball. Any time the user tried to load anything other than hardball, failures where the slide would not go into battery would abound. If I recall correctly, the 1911a1 solved that problem. You see, design is like evolution. My argument is that a bone stock 1911 pattern pistol will require major service long before a bone stock Glock does. That is it, end of story. The shock buffers in a .45 1911 run on full power loads will wear out within the 5000 round area and require replacement. Barrel links have been known to wear loose before 10,000 rounds. Extractors break or become weak. Take a look at the design of a 1911 extractor vs the design of the Glock. Tell me that you cannot see which one will be more robust. Face it, we both like different guns. I am not going to convince you that the Glock is better, and I am pretty sure that you cannot convince me that the 1911 is better. Heck, this thread was about MB pens and the materials used to make them. If you want to continue this, please feel free to post your opinions (which with the lack of imperical data on the subject is what they are) in the current thread on the chatter page regarding handguns. Peace, SG

Well I wonder what is your source claiming the para ord is not the fbi hrt 's official weapon when it is http://www.fortunecity.com/tatooine/leiber/50/dgguns01.htm

The TRP Pro is used by regional swat teams as it mentionned in the link (the link doen't mention that the springfield is used by the HRT tough the Springfield custom brochure mention that the TRP PRO is used by the HRT), so there is a contradiction somewhere. I am also enclosing the torture test of the para ord 7.45 LDA so you can see that the para ord is easily holding a candle to a glock.

I have never tried to convince that a 1911a1 based model is better than a glock, but just to tell you that there are some pistols that can easily take the comparison to a glock.

Well to each their own.

 

have a great day

 

regards

 

georges.

 

p.s: I am mailing para ord to have some more infos about by which law enforcement agencies and armies they are used.

torture_test.pdf

[meek]

Gentlemen,

 

I did enjoy your posts on the 1911 and Glock.

 

Interesting discussion - even on a Mont Blanc forum (maybe more so because of it...)

 

 

 

[SMG]

Yeah, got a little carried away there.

 

Pens ROCK!!!

 

Cheers,

SG

[Arkanabar]

I've been told elsewhere that "precious resin" is a fiberglass-reinforced tree sap, dyed and then polymerized through a process called "amberizing." As amber is also polymerized sap, the whole "precious resin" thing is not so pretentious as it usually seems.

 

Which would suggest celluloid. However, it is extremely unlikely that any modern MB pen, except perhaps for the odd "limited" edition, is made from celluloid. In fact I would even pay money to take a piece of broken barrel material and have it analysed to establish its composition and I would bet pound to a penny that it is PMMA (Plexiglas, Perspex, Lucite, Permanite - call it what you wish) just as in most quality pens manufactured today. -- Martin (twdpens)

Sorry, but as celluloid is cellulose acetate, I don't think so. How much cellulose (which is the fibrous part) do you think there would be in sap?

 

Just note a about guns in polymer they are not the most durable, the most durable autos are the 1911's auto based pistols or browning hp or cz75 based pistols. -- Georges Zalavsky

... Glock has run at least 375,000 rounds through one of their early factory production G17s. I know that high quality Browning-action autos (be they M1911s, CZ75s, or Hi-Powers) can have that sort of service life, but I don't think we can expect them to go that distance without malfunction.

 

My Glock did not see that much use without at least a stovepipe or two, but that was really cheap eastern european steel case 9mm that failed.

[beezaur]

If it was glass reinforced, it would not be prone to "precious fracture."

 

Scott

[PigRatAndGoat]

Wow. Fine writing instruments and blazing guns mix surprisingly well...

[Titivillus]

The precious resin issue is a regular topic on this forum.

Between me and my dad, we have managed to shatter 5 MB.

 

...Or maybe, the fragility of the precious resin is part of MB business plan.

By the way, I have never seen a company so good at fixing a destroyed pen!

They are miracle workers.

 

 

Samovar

 

What MB needs to do is talk to Solvay Advanced polymers and get some Primospire120. It's a transparent plastic that works like mild steel and is as strong as an equivalent piece of aluminum but only 1/3 the weight. Scratch resist up to near sapphire on the Mohs scale and colors to a pretty black plastic as you have ever seen.

 

Kurt

 

[Samovar]

Thanks Kurt, I knew somebody would find a way to fix the precious resin issue.

Now, we need somebody to make us a bunch of pen out of this cool material.

 

Samovar

 

The precious resin issue is a regular topic on this forum.

Between me and my dad, we have managed to shatter 5 MB.

 

...Or maybe, the fragility of the precious resin is part of MB business plan.

By the way, I have never seen a company so good at fixing a destroyed pen!

They are miracle workers.

 

 

Samovar

 

What MB needs to do is talk to Solvay Advanced polymers and get some Primospire120. It's a transparent plastic that works like mild steel and is as strong as an equivalent piece of aluminum but only 1/3 the weight. Scratch resist up to near sapphire on the Mohs scale and colors to a pretty black plastic as you have ever seen.

 

Kurt

 

[captnemo]

I think it would be cool to have a pen made of polycarbonate. Then I could have a bulletproof pen filled with bulletproof ink.

 

:ltcapd:

[sam]

I think it would be cool to have a pen made of polycarbonate. Then I could have a bulletproof pen filled with bulletproof ink.

 

:ltcapd:

hey, now theres an idea

[Titivillus]

Thanks Kurt, I knew somebody would find a way to fix the precious resin issue.

Now, we need somebody to make us a bunch of pen out of this cool material.

 

Samovar

 

 

I'm already trying!

 

Kurt

[Titivillus]

I think it would be cool to have a pen made of polycarbonate. Then I could have a bulletproof pen filled with bulletproof ink.

 

:ltcapd:

 

 

You can already buy that pen

 

Makrolon® is the trade name used for the polycarbonate from Bayer MaterialScience and the Lamy 2000 Series Pens are made from a combination material of fibreglass-reinforced Makrolon and stainless steel.

 

Kurt

 

 

 

[Samovar]

I cannot wait to see the result. The colour of this material looks really good, very deep black.

Is it an expensive plastic? Maybe I could sneak in the machinist class in the school I teach at, I saw all those fancy machines the other day

Good luck Kurt with the project and keep us inform with your progress.

Samovar

 

Thanks Kurt, I knew somebody would find a way to fix the precious resin issue.

Now, we need somebody to make us a bunch of pen out of this cool material.

 

Samovar

 

 

I'm already trying!

 

Kurt

 

[Titivillus]

I cannot wait to see the result. The colour of this material looks really good, very deep black.

Is it an expensive plastic? Maybe I could sneak in the machinist class in the school I teach at, I saw all those fancy machines the other day

Good luck Kurt with the project and keep us inform with your progress.

Samovar

 

If you are interested I know of a stock shape company that does rods and plates and the like. Not really sure what the going price is.

 

K

 

[donwinn]

MB says that the resin is made of tree sap dyed to colour.

I've also heard this, in which case it makes sense in MB's market: natural materials are considered to be more desirable than synthetics.

 

Consider men's dress shirts: at the bottom, the cloth is almost all polyester, at the middle- and upper-class level, 100% cotton is king, and then luxury levels are all cotton of various rare grades and tighter, more expensive weaves. (I hate the way polyester blends feel, and so I end up with a lot of 100% cotton ironing...)

 

 

I cannot tolerate polyester unless absolutely necessary; however, I have been able to find wrinkle-free cotton shirts, to save me from ironing. I used to have shirt ironing as part of my early moring routine, once I economized and quit taking the shirts to the laundry for $1 per shirt washed, starched, and pressed. The price for a `100% cotton wrikle free shirt is only slightly higher than a comparable quality cotton/poly blend, so I am money ahead, not having to pay for starch and electricity for ironing, or laundry services, and they look good longer than a starched and pressed cotton shirt. Best of both worlds.

 

Donnie