Tooth Vs Scratch Vs Feedback Vs Noisy, Accurate Definitions?

[Cryptos]

Cat among the pigeons... in my very limited opinion (both experience and intellect) tooth, scratch and feedback are all just degress of the same thing. There is an interaction at the interface between nib and paper that is mediated by the ink. The quality of that interaction leads different people to certain conclusions and to classifications of relative 'toothiness'. As I understand it (once again, intellectual limits apply) although the nib is fairly stable the two main variables are the ink and paper, and these variables are likely to, well, vary more than any perceived smoothness of the nib tip itself*.

 

On the other hand the above may be just a load of old tosh! Take yer pick.

 

 

*assuming that the nib is not misaligned or otherwise damaged.

Edited May 9, 2014 by Cryptos

[discopig]

I find scratchiness really bad, because that means the nib is tearing up the paper and paper fibers are getting stuck into the nib.

 

Noisiness is tolerable, it's just noise.

 

Feedback is also alright if it isn't excessive, it lets you know what kind of paper you're writing on.

 

Toothiness is generally not good, because it's like feedback but with some added resistance.

[KBeezie]

Course the primary problem is when people have different meaning to each term, so when they're trying to explain their preference, or trying to explain how a pen performs, then it's not like we can merely sum it up to an adjective if we're not on the same page.

 

Seems most people have a very similar agreement on 'scratchy', but I do know there's a small degree of people who will treat other properties as being 'scratchy'.

 

My plan is, if I ever intend to use the terms, I'll likely follow up with some kind of clarification, and specify the ink/paper that led me to that conclusion. Since if I do that especially when explaining a problem, someone can actually offer suggestions on different inks/paper if that issue is known with that combination.

[oldmatekev]

Not related to your original question, and from what you've said it wouldn't be noticeable to you anyway, but I had a pen/nib combo that made delightful little squeaks and grunts while it was writing. I assume it was the nib vibrating against the hard plastic feed.

 

I swapped the nib into a Konrad with an ebonite feed and it doesn't do it any more. I have to admit that I miss it a bit.

[KBeezie]

Not related to your original question, and from what you've said it wouldn't be noticeable to you anyway, but I had a pen/nib combo that made delightful little squeaks and grunts while it was writing. I assume it was the nib vibrating against the hard plastic feed.

 

I swapped the nib into a Konrad with an ebonite feed and it doesn't do it any more. I have to admit that I miss it a bit.

 

You need to stop caressing your pens in weird ways...

[Guest Ray Cornett]

Not related to your original question, and from what you've said it wouldn't be noticeable to you anyway, but I had a pen/nib combo that made delightful little squeaks and grunts while it was writing. I assume it was the nib vibrating against the hard plastic feed.

 

I swapped the nib into a Konrad with an ebonite feed and it doesn't do it any more. I have to admit that I miss it a bit.

This is sometimes called singing. Even the most smooth nib can do this. When an extra smooth nib tip glides over a paper with a little bit of tooth it can vibrate the tines which will make them "sing". If you have ever gone to the beach and slid your bare foot across wet sand and heard that squeak sound that is the same thing sort of.

[KBeezie]

This is sometimes called singing. Even the most smooth nib can do this. When an extra smooth nib tip glides over a paper with a little bit of tooth it can vibrate the tines which will make them "sing". If you have ever gone to the beach and slid your bare foot across wet sand and heard that squeak sound that is the same thing sort of.

 

And I guess by changing to an ebonite feed, he 'dampened' the harmonic vibrations of the nib.

[Guest Ray Cornett]

 

And I guess by changing to an ebonite feed, he 'dampened' the harmonic vibrations of the nib.

It can still happen with an ebonite feed. It depends on the thickness of the nib. My Waterman 512 1/2 has an ebonite feed and a thin flex nib and at times it will "sing". It also depends on how you are holding the pen and the direction the nib is facing.

[TimGirdler]

A singing nib is something you don't really want. No matter the smoothness of the nib, the paper, and the lubrication of the ink, a singing nib will sing. If the singing is enough, the nib will atomize the ink and it will spray the ink like an old-time perfume sprayer. This is messy, and it's bad.

 

The only way to fix the nib is to bend it, which changes the harmonic frequency of the nib. It's best to bend it back in the tail of the nib or somewhere other than the tines. There is no way to tune the singing out of a nib.

 

So, in the above discussion, the different feed likely changed the contour of the nib--even ever-so-slightly. That changed stopped from singing.

 

Blessings,

 

Tim

[ac12]

I think of scratchiness in several ways/sources

• A nib where the tip is not aligned, and the sharp inside edge of one tip is scratching the paper.
• A SHARP nib (think of a VERY pointed dip pen nib) where you make a cross stroke, that sharp nib is scratching the paper very similar to a knife or a needle.
• The feel of a XF nib on less than smooth paper. This is the vibration of the nib coming up the pen. Maybe this is feedback. But to my hand, if feels scratchy. In the extreme, it can be VERY irritating. Irritating enough that I will NOT use certain pen/paper combinations. The less resistance and smoother the feel the better.

[max dog]

Another thought occurs to me. Feedback would be akin to a good quality pencil with a high graphite content, smooth enough but with control whereas 'scratchy' would be more like a cheaper pencil with a high clay content, tends to catch more on the paper.

I often thought of nice feedback the same way as a good quality pencil. Smooth yet you feel what the nib is doing on the paper.

 

I also think of it this way:

 

Glassy smooth = dad's old Buick power steering = super smooth to the point of feeling completely disconnected from the road.

Feedback = sports car carving out hair pins = you feel the road so you know how far you can push the car.

Scratchy =Wheel barrel = you feel every bump, pebble and indentation in the road until your hands get sore and start developing callouses.

[oldmatekev]

A SHARP nib (think of a VERY pointed dip pen nib) where you make a cross stroke, that sharp nib is scratching the paper very similar to a knife or a needle

 

 

That reminds me of the time I shoved an antique dip nib into a fountain pen body. An absurd amount of flex, but it sounded like a jam tin half full of gravel.

A lot of the time an upstroke would produce either a fine spray or a great blob of ink to flick out, sometimes up to 30mm.

 

I used that pen for about a week then put it away and forgot about it, good times.

[KBeezie]

 

That reminds me of the time I shoved an antique dip nib into a fountain pen body. An absurd amount of flex, but it sounded like a jam tin half full of gravel.

A lot of the time an upstroke would produce either a fine spray or a great blob of ink to flick out, sometimes up to 30mm.

 

I used that pen for about a week then put it away and forgot about it, good times.

 

I suppose that's not quite as bad as stabbing yourself with an accounting nib under your fingernail.

[FloatingFountain]

Funny. I was just thinking about this yesterday. One of my notepads, using unknown paper (it only says "Office Essentials" on the cover) is great for fountain pens, because the ink does not feather. However, when writing with my Sailor Sapporo, some strange things happen.

 

1. The nib is very smooth. No resistance whatsoever.

2. Still, it makes a lot of noise. It goes like "skkkkrrrttt, skkkkrrrttt, skkkkrrrttt" during writing.

3. Sometimes, once in several words, it feels as if the nib hits something, like a grain of sand; it feels as if something is 'in the way,' but it just keeps on writing. When feeling atop the paper with my fingers, I can't feel anything strange; no dust particles or anything.

 

On other papers, the pen is much quieter and does not feel like as if I'm hitting tiny particles all the time. Most of these papers do feather much more, though. (Maybe I'd just need to swap to the drier Pelikan ink to stop the feathering, and stay with that paper/ink combination.)

Edited May 9, 2014 by FloatingFountain

[martinbir]

I always understood "tooth" to be a paper industry term.

 

Pick up a sheet of paper and feel it between your thumb and fingers. Glossy leaflet stock or paper sold for colour copying is very smooth. High quality stationery papers will feel crisp but often not quite so smooth, there is a slight catch against your fingers. That is tooth.

 

I presume the term transferred to pens must be that same difference in feel.

[KBeezie]

I always understood "tooth" to be a paper industry term.

 

Pick up a sheet of paper and feel it between your thumb and fingers. Glossy leaflet stock or paper sold for colour copying is very smooth. High quality stationery papers will feel crisp but often not quite so smooth, there is a slight catch against your fingers. That is tooth.

 

I presume the term transferred to pens must be that same difference in feel.

 

In regards to 'tooth', I've never even heard the term until I inquired with a seller of a Visconti Van Gogh (still wana get one, but funds are short again), and described it as having a small amount of tooth to it, and I'm thinking... what's tooth? I've heard it explained a couple of different ways.

[FloatingFountain]

 

In regards to 'tooth', I've never even heard the term until I inquired with a seller of a Visconti Van Gogh (still wana get one, but funds are short again), and described it as having a small amount of tooth to it, and I'm thinking... what's tooth? I've heard it explained a couple of different ways.

 

Funds are short? Nonsense. You can only say so if you intend to buy this pen. Compared to that, all the rest is just cheap trash

[KBeezie]

 

Funds are short? Nonsense. You can only say so if you intend to buy this pen. Compared to that, all the rest is just cheap trash

... I think I found my grail pen as far as aesthetics and available pen stand goes...

 

*Grail Stare*

http://se.xlu.be/whut.jpg

[Mardi13]

This is all interesting. I like the pencil comparison.

 

I just got a Ranga pen from India in the mail. Wild pen, I will try to write a review, if I get really brave. I like it but the nib feels...weird. I can't say scratchy but there is resistance. It is more like a pencil feel. So for I have only tried it in my "scribble book" which is where I try out ones and practice writing, and that is a Moleskine. I will try it on some different paper.

[KBeezie]

This is all interesting. I like the pencil comparison.

 

I just got a Ranga pen from India in the mail. Wild pen, I will try to write a review, if I get really brave. I like it but the nib feels...weird. I can't say scratchy but there is resistance. It is more like a pencil feel. So for I have only tried it in my "scribble book" which is where I try out ones and practice writing, and that is a Moleskine. I will try it on some different paper.

 

Sounds like "feedback" to me.