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On Permanent Ink, Permanency And Safety



Morbus Curiositas

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Morbus Curiositas

On Permanent Inks.

 

 

I have noticed that there have been a lot of discussions on Permanent inks. A lot of questions have risen through time. I will list a few of them below and try to answer them as good as possible.

 

  1. Is it safe for fountain pens
  2. What are the requirements for a ink to be considered permanent
  3. Are they really permanent
  4. Can these inks be used without doubts/regular Fountain Pen maintenance

 

  1. Is it safe for Fountain Pens?

This depends on what the ink is made of. Throughout history inks were made with either soot or Iron gall. The advantage is they are very permanent and lightfast. The disadvantage is that they are not safe for fountain pens.

 

Iron Gall inks

Iron gall inks damage the Nib and clog up the nib and feed. Iron gall, because off the iron gall acid may also damage the paper. They tend to ‘eat away the paper’. An example of this ‘eating away the paper can be found in the archives of the Dutch East Indies Company (VOC). Although the ink is perfectly legible, the paper from the 17th century is severely damaged today.

 

Soot based inks.

 

Soot has been used for Ink making since the antiquity. I have published an article on that called “Ink History Antiquity”. You can find the article following the link below.

 

 

A major advantage of these inks is that they are not only permanent. But they are truly black. This being truly black isn’t always the case today. Down here you find a link of my Fountain pen hero SBRE Brown. In this video he tests several black inks to see whether they are really black or more like greyish.

 

www.youtube.com/watch?v=kvfGrJIpKBQ

 

These soot based inks are for Fountain Pens because they clog the feed of the pens.

 

Beware both Iron Gall and Soot based inks your beloved Fountain Pen!

 

  1. What are the requirements for a ink to be considered permanent.

 

To be considered permanent and suitable for use by i.e. lawyer and registers. The ink has to comply with certain standards. The international certification is ISO 12757-2.

 

Requirements for permancy

 

· Waterproofness

· Light fastness

· Resistance against any outer (chemical) influences

· The ink may not be removed without damaging the paper

 

· Light fastness can be tested with the wool scale. A scale for testing light fastness in the textile and offset industry

 

stars

grades

Wool Scale

 

Adapted and translated from Wikipedia Germany: Wollskala

description

 

1 und 2

not light fast

*

3

Very little light fast

**

4

Little lightfast

***

5 und 6

Light fast

****

7

Highly light fast

*****

8

Highest light fastness

 

• Resistance against any outer (chemical) influences

It has to be resistant against chemical substances like alcohol or cleaning agents

 

• The ink may not be removed without damaging the paper

This way the texts cannot be manipulated without leaving traces

 

This is achieved by a certain surface tension. The ink has to drench in order to be permanent. This is what the old inks, as described in the VOC example, did.

In a review on the new Montblanc permanent inks on FPN this ink was praised for the absence of bleed through. This means that the ink is sort of ‘laying on the paper’, without drenching the fibres of the paper. Whether this ink is truly permanent is questionable. :(

The ink has to drench the paper without damaging it. The disadvantage of bleed trough can be countered by the use of thicker paper like =>100 grs or by using a finer nib.

 

  1. Are they really permanent

 

There are now inks on the market that are both permanent and safe for Fountain Pens.

As mentioned above they have to apply to the ISO 12757-2 standard and drench the paper.

These inks are truly permanent and suited for use by lawyers, doctors and registrars

 

 

 

 

Down here are some manufactures that produce permanent or bulletproof inks

 

· Noodlers www.noodlersink.com

Do not only make flexible nibs (for line variation and nice shading of inks)

They also have nice variety of bulletproof inks in several colours :)

Just a warning on the Noodlers Baystate Blue as mentioned by the Foutain Pen Professor Richard Binder on it’s website

But since this article only mentions the Bay State Blue… Just go for their other nice Bulletproof inks J

· Montblanc Permanent Ink (www.montblanc.com )

Only two colours black and blue

Is it truly permanent see above

Quite expensive

Nice bottles though

 

Caution: As far as I know the old Montblanc inks were based on iron gall, although I am not sure.Better be careful

 

· De Atramentis (www.deatramentis.com ) (www.tinten-online.de with more ink info)

De Atramentis is a small German company with a vast array of (255) inks. Their nano particle document ink apply with the ISO 12757-2 and do drench the paper

 

Following colours are available

Blue, Dark Blue, Black, Magenta, Turquoise.

 

A green document inks is being developed at the moment

 

I have already poste a review on DA Document Ink Blue. It is not cheap (€18 /$20 a 30 ml. bottle). But it is truly permanent and writes superbly :D

https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php/topic/263866-de-atramentis-document-ink/

 

I am working on a review on the DA Document Ink Dark Blue now which is a Black blue Ink.

I have posted a photo of a handwritten page here.

 

post-105475-0-37075000-1399295892_thumb.jpg

 

The full review of DA Document black will be online soon (with scans) as will the other DA Document colours will be too soon.

 

  1. Can these inks be used without doubts/regular Fountain Pen maintenance

NO NO NO!!!

 

Richard Binder THE Fountain Pen Professor :) has written a nice article on that. With nano particle ink you should clean your Fountain Pen regularly. I have been using De Atramentis Document ink for about a year now. I always have In of my pens filled with it. I clean it every 2-3 month and hav not experienced any problems what so ever.

 

http://richardspens.com/ Article:Inks The good the Bad and the Ugly

Most Ink Companies warn you to clean your Fountain Pen more often if you use permanent ink. Please do so :excl:

 

In fact always clean your Fountain Pens every 2-3 months :excl: :excl: :excl:

 

 

Too conclude

 

I am very much interested in your experiences with permanent inks. And I would like to see some of your reviews with Noodler’s Bullet proof inks.

 

I Hope this was informative. For more information check the excellent website of Richard Binder. THE Fountain Pen Professor.

 

Warmest regards,

 

Das leben ist wie ein Perpetuum Mobile mit ein Mangel..... Immer im Bewegung jedoch nicht unendlich. (life is like a troubled Perpetuum Mobile ever moving but not for ever)

Tricked throughout the centuries...

For centuries people had been tricked by kings & "religion-alism"

In the 20th century people got tricked by communism

Today people get tricked by (neo)capitalism :)

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  • Morbus Curiositas

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coffeetoofull

This is a very important subject, which is not to be overlooked by fountain pen users. With all the inks being offered on the market, the choices can become quite confusing, especially when attempting to decipherer modern manufacturers ink data through their marketing descriptions. A list of all the permanent inks and their manufacturers would be most helpful with acid ph content, and any other analysis which the researcher might wish to contribute.

I am researching the 'dip pen', which is usually used with permanent inks in writing and, most frequently, in art, today. There are many private and small manufacturers of permanent inks, which do not appear on the broad market. Fortunately, some of these ancient and forgotten recipes for permanent inks are ocassionally being resurrected by a few small independent manufacturers. Now that's something for the historian to consider in their research, and or to begin an ink manufacturing process developed solely for this purpose. Consider the native American Indians and their use of dies and inks, and other ancient cultures, etc.

Best Writings To You, coffeetoofull

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Morbus Curiositas

Dokumenten-Tinte BLAU. Sie ist für alle Füllfederhalter geeignet.

 

Technische Daten der Tinte:

- Lichtechtheit: 8

- ph-Wert: 7,5

- Oberflächenspannung: 60 mN/m

- Viskosität: 1,2 mPas

- Feuchtigkeitsbeständigkeit: ja

- Temperaturbeständigkeit: ja

- Farbe: Blau

- Inhalt: 35 ml

- Die Dokumententinte entspricht der ISO 127757-2.

This is a very important subject, which is not to be overlooked by fountain pen users. With all the inks being offered on the market, the choices can become quite confusing, especially when attempting to decipherer modern manufacturers ink data through their marketing descriptions. A list of all the permanent inks and their manufacturers would be most helpful with acid ph content, and any other analysis which the researcher might wish to contribute.

I am researching the 'dip pen', which is usually used with permanent inks in writing and, most frequently, in art, today. There are many private and small manufacturers of permanent inks, which do not appear on the broad market. Fortunately, some of these ancient and forgotten recipes for permanent inks are ocassionally being resurrected by a few small independent manufacturers. Now that's something for the historian to consider in their research, and or to begin an ink manufacturing process developed solely for this purpose. Consider the native American Indians and their use of dies and inks, and other ancient cultures, etc.

Best Writings To You, coffeetoofull

Down here are the specs of DA Document inks.

 

Dr Jansen inherited an old pharmacists book with ink recipes. He did a lot of research on Ink history and modern inks.

 

I am in frequent contact with him and translate the article on ink history for FPN.

 

Dr Jansen s a ver friendly man who always takes time for your questions.

Das leben ist wie ein Perpetuum Mobile mit ein Mangel..... Immer im Bewegung jedoch nicht unendlich. (life is like a troubled Perpetuum Mobile ever moving but not for ever)

Tricked throughout the centuries...

For centuries people had been tricked by kings & "religion-alism"

In the 20th century people got tricked by communism

Today people get tricked by (neo)capitalism :)

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coffeetoofull

I recall several attempts by Greg Clark to create a comprehensive analysis of fountain pens on the market with the Fountain Pen Inks, A Sampler. However, it was not specific to permanent inks, but included most of the inks by the major ink manufacturers (at that time). I still retain one of these booklets in my library for reference. The altercation of ink sample colors on paper has changed very little over the past decade.

A current history of inks must be a difficult subject to complete. Moreover, it must provide an endless source of entertainment and pleasure to study.

Best Writings To You, coffeetoofull

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Morbus Curiositas

thanks Coffeetoofull

 

Must check that link.

 

And er sorry for calling you Librarian instead of Biblophile in the private message I just sent you :-)

Das leben ist wie ein Perpetuum Mobile mit ein Mangel..... Immer im Bewegung jedoch nicht unendlich. (life is like a troubled Perpetuum Mobile ever moving but not for ever)

Tricked throughout the centuries...

For centuries people had been tricked by kings & "religion-alism"

In the 20th century people got tricked by communism

Today people get tricked by (neo)capitalism :)

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PrintersDevil

Diamine makes a permanent ink called Registrar's Ink.

It writes kind of blue black and dries black.

Apparently it is very durable.

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Morbus Curiositas

Diamine makes a permanent ink called Registrar's Ink.

It writes kind of blue black and dries black.

Apparently it is very durable.

Thanks for the tip. I just don't now wheter it is save for Fountain Pens...

 

But despite the topic "not satisfied with Diamine" in the inky thoughts forum.....

 

I will order some bottles of Diamine.... lovely colours at a fair price :-)

Das leben ist wie ein Perpetuum Mobile mit ein Mangel..... Immer im Bewegung jedoch nicht unendlich. (life is like a troubled Perpetuum Mobile ever moving but not for ever)

Tricked throughout the centuries...

For centuries people had been tricked by kings & "religion-alism"

In the 20th century people got tricked by communism

Today people get tricked by (neo)capitalism :)

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wallylynn

Regarding the iron gall inks, there are basically two different types: fountain pen and non-fountain pen.

 

The modern ones are fountain pen safe (such as diamine registrars) as they are marketed specifically for fountain pens. They are made using modern chemical analysis and "pure" ingredients. In addition, the i-g content is relatively low compared to old inks.

 

The old iron gall inks were more or less randomly mixed resulting in left over acid after reaction that would eat paper. For example, sulfuric acid which remains on paper, vs. modern hydrocloric acid which evaporates. They also had other ingredients like gum arabic to help use in quills and dip pens. And of course organic stuff that mold and fungus like to eat.

 

Permanent is vague: there's colloquial definition (permanent markers) and the aforementioned ISO standard.

I'm not done reading, but this is a nice book:

Forty centuries of ink

http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/1483

Anyways, I'm no expert, just what I've read over the years on FPN.

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Morbus Curiositas

Regarding the iron gall inks, there are basically two different types: fountain pen and non-fountain pen.

 

The modern ones are fountain pen safe (such as diamine registrars) as they are marketed specifically for fountain pens. They are made using modern chemical analysis and "pure" ingredients. In addition, the i-g content is relatively low compared to old inks.

 

The old iron gall inks were more or less randomly mixed resulting in left over acid after reaction that would eat paper. For example, sulfuric acid which remains on paper, vs. modern hydrocloric acid which evaporates. They also had other ingredients like gum arabic to help use in quills and dip pens. And of course organic stuff that mold and fungus like to eat.

 

Permanent is vague: there's colloquial definition (permanent markers) and the aforementioned ISO standard.

 

I'm not done reading, but this is a nice book:

Forty centuries of ink

http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/1483

 

 

Anyways, I'm no expert, just what I've read over the years on FPN.

Thanks you for your in put and the link on that book.

 

There are infact several permanent inks. The Advantage of the ISO 12757-2 standard is that it can be used by Registars etc.

 

Regards,

 

Peter

Das leben ist wie ein Perpetuum Mobile mit ein Mangel..... Immer im Bewegung jedoch nicht unendlich. (life is like a troubled Perpetuum Mobile ever moving but not for ever)

Tricked throughout the centuries...

For centuries people had been tricked by kings & "religion-alism"

In the 20th century people got tricked by communism

Today people get tricked by (neo)capitalism :)

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wallylynn

There are infact several permanent inks. The Advantage of the ISO 12757-2 standard is that it can be used by Registars etc.

Ironically, I believe just recently in the past few years, the UK registrar no longer requires registrar's ink.

 

Anyways, all I meant is that while the ISO is permanent, not all permanent inks are ISO, and there are permanent inks not tested to ISO. Also, neither is permanent/ISO equivalent to Archival. That's another can of worms.

 

I also want to clarify that Baystate Blue is NOT a permanent ink by any means. Waterproof yes, but not much else. It just has it's own set of other quirks to be wary of.

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Another very good topic. Thanks!

 

Diamine Registrar's Ink is definitely an iron gall formulation.

 

Can anyone confirm the composition of the latest Montblanc permanent inks, which are stated to be non-iron gall formula?

✒️ :happyberet:

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Morbus Curiositas

Another very good topic. Thanks!

 

Diamine Registrar's Ink is definitely an iron gall formulation.

 

Can anyone confirm the composition of the latest Montblanc permanent inks, which are stated to be non-iron gall formula?

 

No accusing here... But read the text on the "The first Issue" in my review of De Atramentis Dark Blue ;)

Das leben ist wie ein Perpetuum Mobile mit ein Mangel..... Immer im Bewegung jedoch nicht unendlich. (life is like a troubled Perpetuum Mobile ever moving but not for ever)

Tricked throughout the centuries...

For centuries people had been tricked by kings & "religion-alism"

In the 20th century people got tricked by communism

Today people get tricked by (neo)capitalism :)

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Morbus Curiositas

Diamine makes a permanent ink called Registrar's Ink.

It writes kind of blue black and dries black.

Apparently it is very durable.

Thanks for the tip... but GMax told it is a iron gall. So i will not take the risk especially as I have document inks already....

 

But Diamine has lovely colours....

 

So I must have them... and er review them...

 

Thanks again....

 

Regards

Peter

Das leben ist wie ein Perpetuum Mobile mit ein Mangel..... Immer im Bewegung jedoch nicht unendlich. (life is like a troubled Perpetuum Mobile ever moving but not for ever)

Tricked throughout the centuries...

For centuries people had been tricked by kings & "religion-alism"

In the 20th century people got tricked by communism

Today people get tricked by (neo)capitalism :)

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Share on other sites
Morbus Curiositas

I recall several attempts by Greg Clark to create a comprehensive analysis of fountain pens on the market with the Fountain Pen Inks, A Sampler. However, it was not specific to permanent inks, but included most of the inks by the major ink manufacturers (at that time). I still retain one of these booklets in my library for reference. The altercation of ink sample colors on paper has changed very little over the past decade.

A current history of inks must be a difficult subject to complete. Moreover, it must provide an endless source of entertainment and pleasure to study.

Best Writings To You, coffeetoofull

I found the book :-)

 

 

Since I love (ink) history I will read it and post an article on it...

 

Thanks so much

 

Regards

 

Peter

Das leben ist wie ein Perpetuum Mobile mit ein Mangel..... Immer im Bewegung jedoch nicht unendlich. (life is like a troubled Perpetuum Mobile ever moving but not for ever)

Tricked throughout the centuries...

For centuries people had been tricked by kings & "religion-alism"

In the 20th century people got tricked by communism

Today people get tricked by (neo)capitalism :)

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Share on other sites
Morbus Curiositas

I recall several attempts by Greg Clark to create a comprehensive analysis of fountain pens on the market with the Fountain Pen Inks, A Sampler. However, it was not specific to permanent inks, but included most of the inks by the major ink manufacturers (at that time). I still retain one of these booklets in my library for reference. The altercation of ink sample colors on paper has changed very little over the past decade.

A current history of inks must be a difficult subject to complete. Moreover, it must provide an endless source of entertainment and pleasure to study.

Best Writings To You, coffeetoofull

 

I have try to take a peek at Greg Clark's website...

 

It seems non existant can you please give me a link ?

 

I would really love to see Greg's work

 

Thanks in advance :)

 

Peter

Das leben ist wie ein Perpetuum Mobile mit ein Mangel..... Immer im Bewegung jedoch nicht unendlich. (life is like a troubled Perpetuum Mobile ever moving but not for ever)

Tricked throughout the centuries...

For centuries people had been tricked by kings & "religion-alism"

In the 20th century people got tricked by communism

Today people get tricked by (neo)capitalism :)

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Hi,

 

Some time ago I made small research and your description about Iron Gall inks is not correct.

 

- I never heard about anything like iron gall acid. Further more there is no correlation between pH of ink on paper and its degradation. But there is correlation between excess iron to Gallic acid or its derrivatives. This was checked in at least 3 scientific articles about degradation and conservation of old writings.

- There is large amount of writings from 16-17 century that were written with IG ink and are perfectly fine - one thing is the ink, the second one is the quality of paper.

- Old IG inks were made from substrates extracted almost directly from plants - there was a lot of other compounds in them, which were responsible for fast degradation, corrosive properties and mold development in ink. Today's ink is made from pure chemicals - this is huge quality change. Not to mention sources of iron which were pretty much random.

I have a lot of tape - and I won't hesitate to use it!

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Morbus Curiositas

Hi KWZI

 

Thanks for your constructive input.

 

I guess one has to diver Between modern Iron gall inks and old ones. The old ones where much more aggressive.

 

I have been searching quickly. But in the German literature there are several signs that Iron Gall is able to corrode paper. just like what it seem to have done to some paper in the VOC archives.

 

In German there is a word Tintenfraß (Ink Eating) which is a word paper corroseion by inks... The 'attentator was Iron Gall. I have quickly looked in the German Internet. There are various interesting topics on Iron Gall both by German Universities and Book restorers.....

 

I did not have the time to study these intensively but will do so as soon as possible.

 

Modern Iron Gall inks seem to be save(er) for Fountain Pens but since there are non Iron Gall permanent inks with the official ISO 12757_2 standard I personally don't see a reason for buying a IG based permanent ink.

 

But that is my personal opinion of course...

 

But thanks a lot because you struck my curiosity nerve with your interesting Input....

I will have to read more about that in the near future..,. and post my findings

 

Regards

 

Peter

Das leben ist wie ein Perpetuum Mobile mit ein Mangel..... Immer im Bewegung jedoch nicht unendlich. (life is like a troubled Perpetuum Mobile ever moving but not for ever)

Tricked throughout the centuries...

For centuries people had been tricked by kings & "religion-alism"

In the 20th century people got tricked by communism

Today people get tricked by (neo)capitalism :)

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Share on other sites
Morbus Curiositas

Ironically, I believe just recently in the past few years, the UK registrar no longer requires registrar's ink.Anyways, all I meant is that while the ISO is permanent, not all permanent inks are ISO, and there are permanent inks not tested to ISO. Also, neither is permanent/ISO equivalent to Archival. That's another can of worms.I also want to clarify that Baystate Blue is NOT a permanent ink by any means. Waterproof yes, but not much else. It just has it's own set of other quirks to be wary of.

Thanks for the tip on Baystate blue.

 

Question...

 

Cool to here that the registrars in the UK do not have to use registrars ink anymore... I always wonderd the fuzz about it since all through the greater part of 20th century people wrote with Fountain Pens and nobody complainted about it. I guess not all the Inks in the past where permanent either...

 

Question Do registrars (and doctors/lawyers ) still use Fountain Pens? I love the idea

 

Regards,

 

Peter

Das leben ist wie ein Perpetuum Mobile mit ein Mangel..... Immer im Bewegung jedoch nicht unendlich. (life is like a troubled Perpetuum Mobile ever moving but not for ever)

Tricked throughout the centuries...

For centuries people had been tricked by kings & "religion-alism"

In the 20th century people got tricked by communism

Today people get tricked by (neo)capitalism :)

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Share on other sites

Thanks ! Pelikans 4001 is an IG ink.....right ?

http://img244.imageshack.us/img244/5642/postcardde9.png

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Morbus Curiositas

Thanks ! Pelikans 4001 is an IG ink.....right ?

I believe it used to be an IG back in the 50ies or so. But now it is not...

 

Not sure though....

 

Maybe I will call Pelikan, I speak German too, and ask about it...

 

I will let you know

Das leben ist wie ein Perpetuum Mobile mit ein Mangel..... Immer im Bewegung jedoch nicht unendlich. (life is like a troubled Perpetuum Mobile ever moving but not for ever)

Tricked throughout the centuries...

For centuries people had been tricked by kings & "religion-alism"

In the 20th century people got tricked by communism

Today people get tricked by (neo)capitalism :)

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