Vintage (Ink Sac Equipped) Safe Inks? A Tale of pH?

[SobriquetLA]

So I've recently joined the ranks of vintage pen lovers with my (new to me) Greg Minuskin stubbed Parker 51. I adore the pen, but when I purchased it, I was strongly cautioned against using Noodler's inks.

 

Noodler's has been in regular rotation for me since I got into fountain pens in a serious way about 5-6 years ago. I've been using it regularly in my Pelikan and Edison pens without problem. Now that I have the Minuskin 51, I have the vintage pen bug and want to buy more, but I'm concerned about inks. I also miss (and quite frankly could use) the water resistance of my old favorite inks.

 

While Googling, I found this:

 

http://www.marcuslink.com/pens/ink/ink-and-ph-levels.htm

 

Now, Mr. Minuskin advises using inks from only pen manufacturers. He specifically says Pelikan and Waterman inks are fine. According to that chart, Pelikan inks are up there on the acidity levels compared to some other options. So if it isn't the pH that eats the sacs of these vintage pens, what is it? Which inks are safe, and which aren't? I can't afford to re-sac all my pens every 6 months.

[WirsPlm]

There's a lot of scare tactics going around about various inks, but the truth is that there are very, very few problems and it's almost impossible to tell why any individual sac fails because no one tracks enough data. I wouldn't worry about it too much, this is a hobby and it's all down to your personal preference, if you don't want to use an ink in a certain pen whatever, there are certainly people who only use certain inks in certain pens (too much work for me, but I don't have any $200 pens so I'm not that worried). The advice to use only a certain manufacturer's inks in their pens is completely bogus, it's like saying only Dell parts will work with a Dell computer when Dell is just a reseller for parts they buy wholesale, most pen manufacturers don't make their own ink and the ones that do brand their own ink are not infrequently rebottling someone else's ink.

 

Many people have used many different inks in their vintage pens without any kind of problems, sometimes people report issues but mostly I find the issues boil down to something else (using impure talc can cause a sac to fail, but no one thinks of it at first), I've used various Noodler's inks in my Esterbrooks (vintage lever fillers) with no problems. The biggest piece of advice for vintage pens with sacs is to get the sacs replaced when you first get the pen unless the pen is coming from a known restorer who has already replaced the sac because you never know where the old sacs have been or what they've been exposed to (chemicals during repairs, some pen materials interact badly with different sacs, all kinds of things). There's no need to resac every few months, barring a disaster of some kind a sac should last several years, even a decades or so.

Edited April 12, 2014 by WirsPlm

[Bo Bo Olson]

P-51 sac is not rubber but a kind of fiberglass. No or few failures in 70 years.

Number 2, rubber sacs back in the day of the inks you fear....lasted 30-40 years.....I had a sac last 60.

 

Failure of rubber sac's today could be from using cheap Chinese sac's....Could be form 21's century Noodler or PR inks.

Some one did start up the White rubber company making rubber sac's a few years ago.

I don't know if they are still in business....and or if they make sac's as good as they once did when they were the rubber sac factory for the world.

 

Yup, three or five of the best repairmen don't like some of the Noodler inks....in some ate feeds.....other wise they would not say use of noodlers voids guarantee. Many are safe...but Noodler users don't believe...what the repairmen saw...see and don't want to see any more.

 

Pelikan, MB, Waterman, Herbin (outside 1671), Aurora, R&K, DA are safe inks and ESSR.....Period..try some. Many colors...lots of shading inks....instead of boring vivid monotone supersaturated inks.

 

Most Diamine are too. Most to many Noodlers; also. Your pen, your risk.....Noodlers is High Maintenance..clean every week or so., to be safer..

 

Have the trouble Noodler inks been changed? Don't know....don't have a list of the Bad Boys...such a list might be called ink bashing.

One's safe might not be anothers....is it safe on ebonite feeds too? Or is it a plastic feed only ink?

 

There are some nice heavy shading inks made by Noodlers, I would buy....but that reminds me....I got to clean my Ahab...it has Apache Sunset in it....a high maintenance ink.

Edited April 12, 2014 by Bo Bo Olson

[Sasha Royale]

150 years ago, dip pens could be cleaned with a quick rinse in water. Starting in the late 19th century, fountain pens carried

self-contained ink supplies. Many of the inks were corrosive. However, it wasn't the rubber sac that was at risk, but the nib.

Hense, the use of gold nibs. Pens makers designed ever larger nibs to show off the gold. Stainless steel nibs are corrosion

resistant. Modern inks are non-corrosive. i wouldn't hesitate to use contemporary fountain pen inks in my pens, from the

1925 Parker Duofold to TWSBI.

 

Pen sacs are not damaged by caustic ink. They are damaged by dried ink. Since I take good care of my pens (with good info from

FPN members), I expect to re-sac a fountain pen only ONCE in my lifetime. In the mid-1990's, the people at Fahrney's suggested

that Dad have his 45-year-old Parker 51 fitted with a silicon sac He did, though the original rubber sac had not failed.

 

I trust any ink from a modern brand. Making an ink "ph safe" to fountain pens is just as easy as not doing so. Any ink manufacturer,

who markets an ink harmful to an fp (Are you guys listening ?), is finished in the business. I have high confidence in the free market.

[Runnin_Ute]

My two pens that might be able to be called vintage are an Esterbrook J and a late 1960's Parker 45 Flighter.

 

I have three Noodler's inks. Apache Sunset, 54th Massachusetts and Bulletproof Black. Not all inks play well with all my pens. I have used Apache Sunset in the Este- but because of the nibs I have for it (fine and extra fine) I just don't like the combination. The Apache Sunset is usually in my Konrad with a Goulet broad. I have the 54th Massachusetts in my Metropolitan right now.

 

I have had great luck with Diamine inks and Pelikan 4001 Blue Black.

[amberleadavis]

Welcome to FPN!

 

I tend to become frustrated with claims that you should only use inks made by FP manufacturers. Really? When was the last time you bought gas made by Chevy or when did you buy a car built by Texaco? For that matter, Parker Penman ink was the only ink my buddy Frank C used in his Parker - he purchased them together and you can bet your last dollar he was meticulous in his pen hygiene, yet Parker had to fix the pens because their ink caused damage.

 

I'm one of the heaviest pen users I know. I have more than 100 inks and my primary pens TWSBIs are never filled with TWSBI ink. The Pelikans and Lamy's are rarely filled with Pelikan or Lamy ink. In fact of more than 100 inks I own and use, I only have 1 bottle of Lamy, I have a handful of Pelikan inks (multiple bottles of Amber, because of the name).

 

If you followed this xxxxxxx advice, you would be depriving yourself of some of the best and most amazing inks on the market including Noodler's and Diamine.

 

Try lots of ink and enjoy it. Learn how to keep your pen clean (lots of good threads about that). Use your pens. Use your ink. And most of all, back to the important point, enjoy them.

[gerigo]

Sorry I am resurrecting this old thread. This is not the first time this is happening to me. I have had an Edison Menlo and a Waterman Ink-Vue diaphragms melt on me. I attribute it to the unique qualities of certain inks that just melts rubber sacs. This is a relatively new pen that did not last 5 years. I don't know how you all managed to get rubber sacs to last a "lifetime". I still want to know what are the properties in current inks that are so corrosive to rubber sacs as I have quite a few of these modern ASCs and Wahls.

And nope, I don't use Noodler's. I have a mixture of European and Japanese inks. After learning that these sacs don't like Japanese inks, I have started using Herbin inks in these pens. But when it was new I used quite a few fills of a few Japanese inks.

[Bristol24]

Of the 80 or so pens in my collection, 74 would be considered vintage and 61 use the common black latex rubber sac.  Of those, at least 55 are restored and have been used to varying degrees.  I do all of my own sac replacements and have used sacs from only two sources: Anderson's Pens and the Pen Sac Company (the owners of the White Rubber Co.'s equipment and formulas).  Of those 55 latex sac pens, roughly a dozen find semi-regular use as I typically have no more than 5 pens inked at any given time.  I do not own any Noodler's inks and the only Japanese inks I own and use are Sailor "Jentle Blue" and "Jentle Blue Black.". My most used inks are the iron gal inks Hero 232 Blue Black, KWZ IG Blue #1, R&K Scabiosa and R&K Salix.  Conventional inks would be vintage Parker Quink Blue Black with Solv-X, Super Quink Blue Black with So!v-X, modern Quink Permanent Black along with J. Herbin Pearl Noir and Blue Nuit.  I have about a dozen other inks but rarely use them.  Some of my sac pens have been in rotational use for about 8 years with no hint of failure.  When I finish with a pen, I flush it till the water is clear and never store a sac pen until I am confident it is dry.

 

Because there are so many variables, the fact that I have not had any problems means little except to say that what is absent in my case are Noodler's inks and the more popular Japanese inks.  In choosing inks to purchase, I have relied heavily on FPN ink reviews, especially the reviews of Sandy1 (I fear she is no longer with us), who always commented on how easily (or not) an ink flushed out after testing.

 

As to the issue of sac failure, the repair people who have spoken out regarding certain inks being associated with sac and pen damage have credibility.  Individual experience to the contrary is exactly that: individual experience.  While I'm not a repair person, I do my own restorations and have replaced dozens of sacs, most of which were hard and brittle from being left to dry out with ink inside.  Some, however showed failure due to fatigue from extensive use and some had obviously broken down and deteriorated due to some sort of interaction.  This would be pens from the 1930s, 40s, and early 50s so obviously the problem of certain inks being less friendly to latex sacs is not new.  The sac in your photo looks similar to some of those vintage that deteriorated due to some sort of interaction or defect.  I have more thoughts on this issue but think they might be better posed in a new post.

 

Cliff

 

 

[Bristol24]

So, I have an update on the issue of certain inks being unfriendly to latex ink sacs and wish to thank @gerigo for messaging me and posing another question privately.  This got me curious about pens I have not used in several years.  One of my first pens to restore was a late 1920's gold filled Redipoint fountain pen with a wonderful wet noodle flexible nib.  I hadn't used the pen for several years so I pulled it out and attempted to ink it.  Nothing.  I unscrewed the section and was amazed to find a sac that was collapsed and literally glued together.  After cleaning off all of the ink, I tried blowing on the section and it reinflated but squeeze the sac and it is, again, glued together.  The inside of the sac is gooey!

 

Back then I did not keep records because I only had, perhaps 6 or 8 pens.  Now, I maintain a database but, unfortunately, I do not recall what ink I might have had in that pen last.  I can narrow it down quite a bit, however.  At the time I owned Quink Permanent Black, Hero 232, Levenger Cobalt Blue and, perhaps Sailor Jentel Blue and Jentel Blue Black.  I'm going to rule out Hero 232 because I use that in numerous sac pens and have never had a problem.  I suspect it may have been the Levenger but I have no way of knowing for certain.  It could also be Sheaffer Skrip Blue Black because I believe I had acquired that during the time I last used this particular pen.  I have a few other sac pens that I have not used in years and am going to check them as well.  This sac would have come from Anderson's but I really don't believe the problem is the sac.

 

I took a break from writing this post to inspect other pens that I re-saced at about the same time.  I have another Redipoint that was filled with Sailor Jentle Blue and its sac is slightly gummy inside as it sticks for a second or two before releasing and opening up.  Also, it is not as resilient as it should be.  I also checked a 1930s Esty Dollar Pen.  It, too, has a sac that "sticks" closed for a second before releasing and then opening up.  The same with a couple of Esty "Js" re-saced at about the same time.   Some of these pens had only one or two fillings before being flushed and put away.  I am beginning to suspect the quality of the sac at this point.  More on this as I research further...

 

Cliff

[IThinkIHaveAProblem]

33 minutes ago, Bristol24 said:

I am beginning to suspect the quality of the sac at this point.  More on this as I research further...

 

Cliff

this appears to be an ongoing discussion

[Bristol24]

5 minutes ago, IThinkIHaveAProblem said:

this appears to be an ongoing discussion

Apparently so.  Thank you for the link.  I have Emailed Andersons about this since all of the sacs that have failed or are marginal come from the time when they were my source.  It's not a big deal...aggravating, yes, but nothing that about $20 in new sacs can't fix.  At least I know what kind of DIY Bozo had the pen apart the last time...

 

Cliff

[IThinkIHaveAProblem]

1 hour ago, Bristol24 said:

Apparently so.  Thank you for the link.  I have Emailed Andersons about this since all of the sacs that have failed or are marginal come from the time when they were my source.  It's not a big deal...aggravating, yes, but nothing that about $20 in new sacs can't fix.  At least I know what kind of DIY Bozo had the pen apart the last time...

 

Cliff

You’re welcome. Hopefully you can nail down the culprit. 

 

re the last “DIY bozo” who worked on the pen: whenever i do a repair i always try and think of the long term effects because the next person who works on the pen… May be me…  

[Mayo]

For Noodler's in particular it really depends on what ink you are using, I myself found that Black, Red-black, and Black Swan in Australian Rose are very tame and haven't damaged or stained ink sacs. X-Feather blue and Baystate Blue (this one, obviously) are a bit more stainy and I avoid using them on the more expansive pens, though I have used X-Feather Blue on my parker 51 for some weeks and it came out unscathed. Some others I don't own but have been documented to be more reactive.

I mostly avoid using pigmented and some iron-gall inks in vintage pens, or other expensive pens that are not easily disassembled (piston and vac fillers in particular for pigmented inks). Though, I know some iron-gall formulas nowadays are very tame.

[bunnspecial]

On 9/21/2022 at 10:28 PM, Mayo said:

 

I mostly avoid using pigmented and some iron-gall inks in vintage pens, or other expensive pens that are not easily disassembled (piston and vac fillers in particular for pigmented inks). Though, I know some iron-gall formulas nowadays are very tame.

For most sac pens, the designers/manufacturers likely would have assumed that there was a very good chance any given pen would have been used with an iron gall ink, and the ones then were likely a lot nastier than what we have now.

 

If there's one ink type I don't give the slightest worry about, it's IGs, although difficulty of cleaning does shift that equation a bit.

[Mayo]

14 hours ago, bunnspecial said:

For most sac pens, the designers/manufacturers likely would have assumed that there was a very good chance any given pen would have been used with an iron gall ink, and the ones then were likely a lot nastier than what we have now.

 

If there's one ink type I don't give the slightest worry about, it's IGs, although difficulty of cleaning does shift that equation a bit.

 

After commenting on this post I actually took Oxblood out of my Parker 51 and inked it with some Pelikan 4001 Blue-black, to try it out. Figured the hooded nib would help with some of the drying problems this ink had on some other pens. It's one of my favorite inks and one of my favorite pens so I do hope it works out.

[amberleadavis]

Well, it's been 8 years since I thought about this post.  I can say that the WORST thing you can do to your pen is let the ink dry out.

 

I can also report that BSB will eat a TWSBI if given enough time.

 

I must also report that my pens with ink sacs get very little love, but all are doing well.

[essayfaire]

On 4/13/2014 at 5:48 PM, amberleadavis said:

Welcome to FPN!

 

I tend to become frustrated with claims that you should only use inks made by FP manufacturers. Really? When was the last time you bought gas made by Chevy or when did you buy a car built by Texaco? For that matter, Parker Penman ink was the only ink my buddy Frank C used in his Parker - he purchased them together and you can bet your last dollar he was meticulous in his pen hygiene, yet Parker had to fix the pens because their ink caused damage.

 

I'm one of the heaviest pen users I know. I have more than 100 inks and my primary pens TWSBIs are never filled with TWSBI ink. The Pelikans and Lamy's are rarely filled with Pelikan or Lamy ink. In fact of more than 100 inks I own and use, I only have 1 bottle of Lamy, I have a handful of Pelikan inks (multiple bottles of Amber, because of the name).

 

If you followed this xxxxxxx advice, you would be depriving yourself of some of the best and most amazing inks on the market including Noodler's and Diamine.

 

Try lots of ink and enjoy it. Learn how to keep your pen clean (lots of good threads about that). Use your pens. Use your ink. And most of all, back to the important point, enjoy them.

I have a new vintage pen and I wanted to ink it with something more interesting than blue/black.  Now I feel better.  Thank you for reminding me why I enjoy my tools.  I think I will use my new Graf v. Faber Castell Cognac Brown.

[amberleadavis]

1 hour ago, essayfaire said:

I have a new vintage pen and I wanted to ink it with something more interesting than blue/black.  Now I feel better.  Thank you for reminding me why I enjoy my tools.  I think I will use my new Graf v. Faber Castell Cognac Brown.

 

Ah thanks!!  Since that post was before I was a moderator, I was a little more forceful than I would be today, though my advice stands.  Enjoy your pens and ink.

[essayfaire]

1 hour ago, amberleadavis said:

 

Ah thanks!!  Since that post was before I was a moderator, I was a little more forceful than I would be today, though my advice stands.  Enjoy your pens and ink.

I hadn't thought about that, but yes, you were a tad bit more forceful....

[inkstainedruth]

There is also the option of using vintage inks, if you can find them.  A lot are still out there, and (as long as they aren't IG formulations, or have SITB) are often still very usable.  

I have found a number of bottles of Quink and Sheaffer inks (some dating from the 1940s or 1950s) that are quite viable.  And a couple of other brands as well.  While they may not have the amazing nuances of color as some modern ink brands, I have used blue, some blue blacks, black, brown, red, turquoise and purple inks with no issues in either modern or vintage pens.  

Which reminds me -- even with all the modern inks I've bought over the past couple of months, I really should put vintage Skrip Peacock back into rotation at some point.... 

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth