Lloyd Reynolds - Italic Calligraphy & Handwriting

[Rosewood]

Hello,

 

I'm seeking a little clarification, I have just received my copy of Lloyd Reynolds Italic Calligraphy & Handwriting which I'm planning on following along with the video series. In the book, plates 1 & 2 are to be done with a 4B pen, I have the Manuscript range of pens and my 4B is 2.8mm, this should give an 'x' height of 14mm. In the text Mr. Reynolds says to use the guide sheets at the back of the book, but the height for the 4B is 11mm, so is it that my book (35th printing) has drifted somewhat in the printing, or are the manuscript pen nib sizes not equivalent to the Platignum set he recommends.

 

I'm planing on making up my own guide sheets rather than rip them out of the book so I can easily make them to whatever size they should be.

 

If anyone could shed some light on this for me I'd be really grateful.

 

This is the nib size on the manuscript pens:

 

Fine: 0.85mm

Medium: 1.1mm

Broad: 1.35mm

2B 1.6mm

3B: 2.2mm

4B: 2.8mm

 

All the best,

 

Rosewood

 

[dms525]

Hello,

 

I'm seeking a little clarification, I have just received my copy of Lloyd Reynolds Italic Calligraphy & Handwriting which I'm planning on following along with the video series. In the book, plates 1 & 2 are to be done with a 4B pen, I have the Manuscript range of pens and my 4B is 2.8mm, this should give an 'x' height of 14mm. In the text Mr. Reynolds says to use the guide sheets at the back of the book, but the height for the 4B is 11mm, so is it that my book (35th printing) has drifted somewhat in the printing, or are the manuscript pen nib sizes not equivalent to the Platignum set he recommends.

 

I'm planing on making up my own guide sheets rather than rip them out of the book so I can easily make them to whatever size they should be.

 

If anyone could shed some light on this for me I'd be really grateful.

 

This is the nib size on the manuscript pens:

 

Fine: 0.85mm

Medium: 1.1mm

Broad: 1.35mm

2B 1.6mm

3B: 2.2mm

4B: 2.8mm

 

All the best,

 

Rosewood

 

 

I have a "Nib Comparison Chart" published by the Association for the Calligraphic Arts, © 2000. It indicates the following widths in mm for Platignum nibs:

 

XF-0.5

F-0.75

M-0.9

Br-1.5

B2-2

B3-2.5

B4-3

 

It does not have widths for Manuscript nibs.

 

Now, as far as the guidelines go:

 

1. I have three different printings of Reynolds' book. The B-4 guidelines in each are 11mm x-height, as in the book you have.

2. The X-height is relative to the width of the written line, while the nib widths represent the measured width of the nib edge itself. The two measurements are not identical.

3. I don't have a Platignum italic nib set, but I do have an Osmiroid set, and its nib widths are the same as those of the corresponding Platignum nibs. I just measured the height of 5 stacked lines written with an Osmiroid B-4 nib. And the answer is ..... ta da!! .... 11 mm.

 

I hope this helps.

 

David

[Rosewood]

Yes, that helps a lot, thank you David. I've just inked up the B4 and did a few practice 'i' and 'o's to get the initial flush of ink out, and then did my five lines, which measures a hairs width under 13mm. I guess I should make my guide lines to that measurement, as long as I am proportionally correct for the nib width and using a decently wide nib early on, I can't see any issues.

 

Then again I could see myself scouring ebay for old Platignum and Osmiroid sets, lots in America, very few in England, which is odd as I thought both were made here!

 

Thanks again,

 

Rosewood.

[Tasmith]

To make your own guide sheets, check out: www.allunderone.org/calligraphy2/calligraphy.php

[Rosewood]

Thank you Tasmith, you've just saved me a lot of time with that link.

 

All the best,

 

Rosewood

[Rosewood]

Hello, I'm very sorry, I'm new and feel that all I'm doing is asking a lot of questions... And inevitably I have another one!

 

What is the correct angle of attack for a Calligraphy pen? I know the nib is to be at 45º to the horizontal line, but it's the pen angle I'm interested in.

 

I was getting more than a little frustrated with my pen (3B nib) as it just would not start cleanly or at all on some letters 'a' being one in particular. Eventually I raised the angle of the pen up and all of a sudden the ink was flowing much more consistently. Eyeballing my usual pen hold, I would say that my pen is at about 50º to the paper, but if I hold it at 60º+ it seems much better. Is this normal/correct. I notice that Mr Reynolds chooses to use an angled work board which I would assume would have the similar effect of steepening the pen angle.

 

Which leads me to wonder if general fountain pens and italic/calligraphy pens are designed to be used at an optimum angle of attack?

 

All the best,

 

Chris

[dms525]

Hello, I'm very sorry, I'm new and feel that all I'm doing is asking a lot of questions... And inevitably I have another one!

 

What is the correct angle of attack for a Calligraphy pen? I know the nib is to be at 45º to the horizontal line, but it's the pen angle I'm interested in.

 

I was getting more than a little frustrated with my pen (3B nib) as it just would not start cleanly or at all on some letters 'a' being one in particular. Eventually I raised the angle of the pen up and all of a sudden the ink was flowing much more consistently. Eyeballing my usual pen hold, I would say that my pen is at about 50º to the paper, but if I hold it at 60º+ it seems much better. Is this normal/correct. I notice that Mr Reynolds chooses to use an angled work board which I would assume would have the similar effect of steepening the pen angle.

 

Which leads me to wonder if general fountain pens and italic/calligraphy pens are designed to be used at an optimum angle of attack?

 

All the best,

 

Chris

 

Chris,

 

A 50º pen angle should be fine. What you are describing sounds like an ink flow problem. The relevant angle may be with the center of the Earth, not with the paper. That is to say, it's a question of gravity. Note that, if you are writing on a sloped surface, the pen angle relative to gravity is actually smaller, i.e., the long axis of the pen is more horizontal.

 

In the days of reed and quill pens, scribes used slanted surfaces for writing. The pen was held horizontal, plus or minus a small angle. The angle of the pen was used to control ink flow. I think I read that in Edward Johnston.

 

David

[Tasmith]

Thank you Tasmith, you've just saved me a lot of time with that link.

 

All the best,

 

Rosewood

[Rosewood]

 

Chris,

 

A 50º pen angle should be fine. What you are describing sounds like an ink flow problem. The relevant angle may be with the center of the Earth, not with the paper. That is to say, it's a question of gravity. Note that, if you are writing on a sloped surface, the pen angle relative to gravity is actually smaller, i.e., the long axis of the pen is more horizontal.

 

In the days of reed and quill pens, scribes used slanted surfaces for writing. The pen was held horizontal, plus or minus a small angle. The angle of the pen was used to control ink flow. I think I read that in Edward Johnston.

 

David

 

Thank you again David, I'm really enjoying Mr Reynolds book and will soon have a copy of 'Italic Handwriting' by Tom Gourdie to add to my little book collection, I think I'm getting a first edition so it'll be interesting to see if anyone has made notes in the margins.

 

With regards to the angle, I think it might have been paper related. Today I realised the ruled paper I have is exactly the right x height for my 2B pen, and is much nicer paper than the plain paper I was using. Instantly my lines are cleaner and the pen angle is less critical, it might also be helping that the nibs are getting used to being used. I'll have to find some unlined paper that I can use when I change nibs again. Unfortunately this brand of paper only does lined or squares which is a real shame.

 

In trying to keep my letter forms of an equivalent size with the examples in the book, I'm making up my own guide sheets, thanks again Tasmith, and going down one nib size, Mr. Reynolds 3B is a perfect match for my 2B ad it's useful for me to compare the two at the same size.

 

 

Progress is slow, but strangely therapeutic, almost meditative in a way.

 

If anyone has any suggestions for some good quality 90gsm plain paper to practice on that you can get in the UK I'd be interested to hear about it.

 

All the best,

 

Rosewood

[dms525]

Hi, Rosewood.

 

I've found guidelines help a lot, especially at first. I think your sample shows you have a good understanding of the proper letter forms. Slope consistency is still a challenge, but that will come with practice.

 

Interesting that you have found calligraphy practice "almost meditative." That's an understatement. Most of the folks that have written about calligraphy whose books I've read ignore this. When I found myself getting into a mental state I had never achieved by trying to meditate years ago, I mentioned it to a calligraphy teacher. He said it was a common experience. I mentioned it to my-brother-the-Buddhist. He said, more or less, "Well, of course!" He talked about the Zen belief that calligraphy, meditation and archery all require the exact same mental state of non-verbal, non-self-conscious focused attention. I knew that, actually, but didn't generalize from Chinese and Japanese calligraphy to Western script calligraphy.

 

Happy writing!

 

David

[Rosewood]

Knowing when to move on, and knowing when to carry on refining?

 

For these last ten days I've been concentrating solely on Plate 6, the alphabet chain and the 'quick brown fox...' along with taking the opportunity to spend the longest amount of time to write out the neatest little shopping lists and two birthday cards!

 

It would be quite possible to spend the rest of my days working on plate 6, but there are capitals to do as well as numbers, and at some point I need to move on to these.

 

I've taught students in my past and as well as having a goal of what you are wanting them to learn, there is also the pressure of time/money as well as the mentality of the student to contend with, which means sometimes you have to move on before you'd like and hope that the remaining parts of the jigsaw fall into place.

 

As I'm doing this purely for myself and I have no deadlines to work to, I'm left wondering how best to know when to move on... And perhaps I could impose on the kindness of others and post progress scans here, and maybe someone could give me the thumbs up to move on, or point out where I need to concentrate my efforts?

 

 

My Critique, these are the obvious ones to me, but I could be quite blind to other issues so please point them out. I'm using 5º guide sheets to help instil that into my hand and eye.

 

Letter spacing and width not consistent.

V & W, and Y's are still an ongoing mysteries as to how to shape them well.

The tail of the G shows that I don't always keep the nib flat on the paper.

a tendency for the second leg of 'n' to be at less of and angle than the first leg.

I consistently forget to curve the tail of the 'P'.

 

Many thanks for looking,

 

Chris

[caliken]

"If anyone has any suggestions for some good quality 90gsm plain paper to practice on that you can get in the UK I'd be interested to hear about it."

 

I use IQ Mondi Selection Smooth 100gsm not just for practice but for everything,

 

It's easily available in UK and is relatively inexpensive. It comes in reams (500 sheets) of A4

 

http://www.viking-direct.co.uk/a/pb/IQ-Selection-Printer-Paper-A4-White-100gsm/id=IQSELB/

 

 

Ken

Edited March 30, 2014 by Ken Fraser

[Rosewood]

Thank you Ken, I'll pick up a ream or two. Your work is fabulous and very crisp, so your hand, pen and paper must all be doing it right.

 

Best wishes,

 

Chris

[Rosewood]

I started this thread inquiring about the size of a 4B nib, and a Manuscript Vs Platignum 4B size. I have been unlucky in getting a Platignum set (yet), but did manage to get an Osmiroid set, and here is a comparison of the two nibs:

 

 

So there is a significant size difference, and the Osmiroid 4B matches the guidelines in the back of Mr. Reynolds book.

 

[jimk]

I make the tail of a g in two strokes, both downward. That avoids that challenge of reversing the direction of the pen. Similarly I make an o with two strokes.

[dms525]

Knowing when to move on, and knowing when to carry on refining?

 

For these last ten days I've been concentrating solely on Plate 6, the alphabet chain and the 'quick brown fox...' along with taking the opportunity to spend the longest amount of time to write out the neatest little shopping lists and two birthday cards!

 

It would be quite possible to spend the rest of my days working on plate 6, but there are capitals to do as well as numbers, and at some point I need to move on to these.

 

I've taught students in my past and as well as having a goal of what you are wanting them to learn, there is also the pressure of time/money as well as the mentality of the student to contend with, which means sometimes you have to move on before you'd like and hope that the remaining parts of the jigsaw fall into place.

 

As I'm doing this purely for myself and I have no deadlines to work to, I'm left wondering how best to know when to move on... And perhaps I could impose on the kindness of others and post progress scans here, and maybe someone could give me the thumbs up to move on, or point out where I need to concentrate my efforts?

 

 

My Critique, these are the obvious ones to me, but I could be quite blind to other issues so please point them out. I'm using 5º guide sheets to help instil that into my hand and eye.

 

Letter spacing and width not consistent.

V & W, and Y's are still an ongoing mysteries as to how to shape them well.

The tail of the G shows that I don't always keep the nib flat on the paper.

a tendency for the second leg of 'n' to be at less of and angle than the first leg.

I consistently forget to curve the tail of the 'P'.

 

Many thanks for looking,

 

Chris

 

I think you are making excellent progress. I think your self-criticism is spot on, both in that you are engaged in "critical practice" and in the particulars. An exception: The curved tail on the "p" is quite optional in formal italic. It belongs more with Chancery Cursive.

 

Here are my thoughts about "next steps:"

1. Continue using lines of "o"'s and "i"s, cascades and alphabet chains as warm-up exercises, but

2. Move on to copying word lists, pangrams and random thoughts or copying text. There comes a point where progress is impeded if you do exercises without also writing "real" words and sentences.

 

Others may have different thoughts about this, of course.

 

Glad you found the Osmiroid set. How do you like those nibs compared to the Manuscript?

 

David

[Rosewood]

Hi David,

 

Thank you again, I'm really appreciating your comments and help. I've taken your advice on board and today started with a line of 'o' & 'i's and the alphabet chain, followed by the fox & dog, and then two completely bizarre made up sentences from 'the virtual academic' which I saw someone had linked to here. I did this with my 1.1 Twsbi leaving the Osmiriod free for the broader nibs. It's interesting how quickly things broke down when writing sentences, very quickly I realised my tendency to squeeze all letters together and drift away from my base line. Also just keeping the nib in the right plane as I move across the page. So I can see why you'd suggest moving onto real sentences, even if they are made up.

 

 

The Osmiriod 65 compared to the Manuscript, it's fantastic, to be fair I've only used the 2B and 4B, but nibs seem more refined, crisper, and the ink is always there, which is especially noticeable on the 4B, I also love the look of the three tines. I wish they were more readily available as I would like to own a couple of complete (lettering) sets. I was also half toying with the idea of getting a Esterbrook J pen as I believe I read they will accept the Osmiriod nibs. The nibs all needed several days of soaking to clean out the old ink, I've still got four of the nibs in water, so I just hope when I come to need them they will be okay.

 

You mentioned 'cascades', I don't think I've come across them, could you tell me what they are?

 

Thanks again,

 

Chris

[dms525]

Hi, Chris.

 

Ooops. I misspoke .... The term is not "cascade" but, rather, "arcade." See Plate 15. Now, perhaps you should follow your book and get into plain majuscules and also joins before doing arcades. I shouldn't rush you. I found that the arcades are helpful in developing rhythmic writing, which also helps achieve consistent letter slope, but you will get there in good time.

 

Are you also viewing the Reynolds videos on youtube or iTunes U? They follow the book you are using pretty closely. I found watching Reynolds pen work helped me a lot.

 

David

[Rosewood]

Hi David, I see the arcade on plate 15, and see that it will be good, but I'm not sure I'm ready for it yet!

 

Yes I have been watching the Lloyd Reynolds videos, there is a lot more info in them than in the book, or it appears so, maybe being shown and spoken to is just a better way to learn how to do it, but the book is also invaluable

 

As an update, I've just retired the Twsbi in favour of the Art pen, the art pen seems to be more amenable to write when I want it to! A deeply frustrating experience with the Twsbi.

 

All the best,

 

Chris.