Chinese Pens -- Too Many Look Like Counterfeits!

[scrivelry]

As far as a first fountainpen goes, people are probably better off with a Varsity or a Big Disposable - there's enough ink in there to get you hooked on Fountain pens before you have to think about what you're doing.

 

I have a bunch of Chinese pens, some of which I like better than others. I'm sure no one in their right minds would mistake them for a big-name pen, any of them. Some of them work better for me than others, some are too heavy for my hand (My hand's problem, not the pen's) for some reason some of them have something in the cap that is loose and slides around - but none was over ten dollars.

 

I've learned a lot about what I do and don't like by using them, and I'm giving some to my nieces for Christmas stocking gifts. If they don't like them, no particular loss. If they do like them, that's another three Fountain pen fans. And they don't use proprietary cartridges. (I'm not going to make them dangerous by giving them bottled ink - I want the girls to be allowed to use them.)

 

T

[TSherbs]

WirsPlm:

 

Please note -- I am not taking issue with things like the pen body shape at all -- my only issue was and is the use of specific design elements which are part of brand image. I was also not addressing technology such as hidden nibs or variations on feed. So really, I wasn't so much taking issue with patent infringement so much as abuse of trademarks. Or at least that was and is what I have been driving at...

 

Does this help?

There is no Lamy or Safari trademark on the Hero pens. The pen trademark reads "HERO." Like some pencils read "Ticonderoga" and others read "Staples" and both are yellow and hexagonal with pink erasers. One CAN make them other colors and shapes, but there is no legal or ethical requirement for one to do so.

[TSherbs]

 

.....I've learned a lot about what I do and don't like by using them, and I'm giving some to my nieces for Christmas stocking gifts. If they don't like them, no particular loss. If they do like them, that's another three Fountain pen fans. And they don't use proprietary cartridges. (I'm not going to make them dangerous by giving them bottled ink - I want the girls to be allowed to use them.).....

 

T

Me, too! But to nieces and nephews.

[WirsPlm]

I've learned a lot about what I do and don't like by using them

 

That, and I've gotten quite a bit of practice in at nib tweaking which was fun all on its own. I'm getting a bunch of hooded nib pens in later this week, and I'm looking forward to seeing if they're all they're reported to be, but if not I can be confident that I've got the tools to make my $5 pens write like pens 10 times their list price.

[Moshe ben David]

At our pen club meeting on Saturday, someone brought a new Hero "Safari clone." Slight variation in shape aside, to the untrained eye, it would be indistinguishable from the real thing. However, with the packaging there was a sort of trademark to ensure what you bought was not a Hero clone but the real thing?!

The fact that the lower priced Sheaffers are made in China seems to suggest they have confidence in their ability to make a quality product.

Personally. I am not interested in acquiring a "Safari clone" but some others apparently are. Seriously, the sale of replicas of high end products is a big deal. I recently watched a documentary on CBC on fakes of products that have shown up everything from new planes to cars. There are some companies selling knockoffs of prescription drugs! There seems to be no end to this type of greed.

It is possible for "off shore" manufacturers to break out on their own. Most new bicycles are manufactured in the far east as well as components under license. Giant has emerged from a company making other brand's products to be taken just as seriously for the same prices as the companies they still make bikes for. Just saying it is possible.

 

Thank you. Illustrates my point of view quite nicely!

[dcwaites]

I find it annoying that a number of people assume that only the Chinese are guilty of copying elements of someone else's design.

 

One only has to look at the proliferation of fins in American cars in the 50's, or the way that Ruger copied substantial elements of the Colt Peacemaker design when they made the Blackhawk. I don't see people saying "I'll never buy a Ruger because they copied Colt".

 

As has been said on this forum a number of times - intellectual property law is complicated, varies from country to country, and is beyond the ken of most humans. For example, books that are out of copyright in Australia (like some of the Edgar Rice Burroughs novels) are still in copyright in the US.

 

If a design element has expired, it is fair game. And for most designs that time frame is 20 years, just about the length of time the Lamy Safari has been around. The design elements of the Safari are now available to copy. The Parker Arrow clip, and the 51 hooded nib design are far older than that.

It is not immoral or illegal to copy design elements of an expired design.

[Cryptos]

I have a few objectionable remarks to make (just to give fair warning).

 

1. People only ever really complain about imitation when it's being done by someone else. Never when they are doing it themselves.

2. It's funny that the imitation of forms is perfectly acceptable in, say, pairs of jeans, but is suddenly hugely frowned upon when it concerns niche items.

3. I smell an agenda in the OP.

4. With regard to high price (economically relative) items, cheap imitations have little to no impact on sales of the originals. The second tend to be bought by those who cannot afford the first anyway.

5. If the imitated item is as good as or better in quality than the original... well, you would have to ask questions about the original.

6. There is no point 6.

 

Here's something to ponder, obliquely if you'll pardon the pen pun: before the 1930s diamonds were not a girl's best friend, after the 1930s they quickly become so. Why?

Edited May 27, 2014 by Cryptos

[Nonsensical]

While there are counterfeit issues in China - imitation of the sort you are highlighting is not the real issue.

 

AFAIK, Lamy, Parker or any other mentioned "copies" in this thread have been around for longer than 20 years. Assuming that they did apply for exclusive design rights and received them, they have already expired. They no longer hold any legal or equitable Intellectual Property rights over a design. Hence any IP arguments are moot.

 

Unlike trademarks - which can be continually renewed, design rights and patents have a limited time period, which allows the designer to fully exploit their market monopoly over said designs and technologies/methods. After this time period has expired, the design is free to be used by anyone. Assuming that the design is such that it appeals to the masses, or has some sort of advantage over other designs, why would people not copy it? (Refer to the "Lego" case for more details regarding the limitations of design rights and associated controversies).

 

Since it isn't illegal from an IP aspect, then what about fraud? There appears to be no dishonest or fraudulent sort of misrepresentation, at least with regards to genuine Hero 616 pens and the new "Safari clones". They're marketed as Hero pens, or Jinhao pens. Yes, the design is very similar, but there's no fraud - the packaging clearly states that the pen is a Hero pen, the pen itself is also marked with the word Hero. No reasonable person would, unless they were being extremely careless (in which case, you can't really blame the manufacturer) ever mistake the pen for being a Lamy Safari.

 

As for whether this goes against what is "morally correct", I think this particular argument is weak at best. We buy clothes that are based off designs of more expensive "branded" counterparts, and see nothing wrong with that. Some are even blatant copies of the original, which may cost as much as 10x as much. So why is that acceptable, but not "copied designs" for fountain pens? In the case of clothes, the original designer doesn't even get a 20 year monopoly!

 

The real issue here is, and should be the counterfeiting of goods. There are fake brand name bags, watches, even counterfeit fountain pens (Montblanc) being sold in and exported out of China. Let's not drown out the real problem by nitpicking about something that is neither illegal nor morally reprehensible.

[Cryptos]

 

As for whether this goes against what is "morally correct", I think this particular argument is weak at best. We buy clothes that are based off designs of more expensive "branded" counterparts, and see nothing wrong with that. Some are even blatant copies of the original, which may cost as much as 10x as much. So why is that acceptable, but not "copied designs" for fountain pens? In the case of clothes, the original designer doesn't even get a 20 year monopoly!

 

Exactly what I put in Point No.2!

 

 

Being unoriginal isn't a crime... unless you are with the fashion police I guess!

 

As Nonsensical puts it the real issue is counterfeiting, not imitation under different branding. The people who buy a Montblanc are not very likely to go and buy a Jinhao and then try to convince themselves they are getting the MB experience. The design copy really doesn't do any harm at all in terms of sales. I think the biggest problem arises when someone makes an identical copy at identical or better quality levels but at a cheaper price point. Then you have to look suspiciously at the high price manufacturer and demand to know why they are overpricing their stuff. Doesn't happen too often though.

[rochester21]

In the end, one has to agree with what the OP is saying- indeed, there are too many chinese reproductions on the market.

 

They should make fewer of them and increase the quality instead(I`m willing to pay extra for this) !

Edited May 27, 2014 by rochester21

[KBeezie]

In the end, one has to agree with what the OP is saying- indeed, there are too many chinese reproductions on the market.

 

They should make fewer of them and increase the quality instead(I`m willing to pay extra for this) !

 

Due to the stigma of buying Chinese, the cost and what they copy is what they have going for them right now. For example if a Safari clone is only within 5 to 10 dollars of an actual Safari, the fact the clone is made in China is going to be the obvious deal breaker, but if it's $20 difference, there are quite a few people who would forgive the fact it's made in China.

 

PS: I'd gladly pay an extra $5 to $10 for something like their X750/X450/159 etc that don't necessarily clone anything (well the 159 supposedly clones the 149, but there are so many pens with that style of design), especially if it means that the production is much more consistent, the feed is improved for flow and the nib quality improves from the stock (if nothing else improve the feed lol, can always put a better nib on later).

 

Also I think there are Chinese makers that are making better quality pens, we just don't know about them because no one is in a rush to buy a $30-$50 Chinese branded pen and spread around reviews of them like wildfire compared to other pens in the same price range (the non-Chinese pens just really don't touch much under $15 which is where the Chinese ones dominate).

[basterma]

I read an article in a computer magazine in 2011 about how IPhone clones made it into the Chinese market before the actual IPhone did. The relevant part was about how ghost shifts would be run at the factries that make parts like the cases, screens etc, then fed to a network of people who added various parts to make a phone. Often the factories would exist for a night or two, then move on.

 

I think the lack of originality discussed here may be a result of running such ghost shifts or using actual parts from the factory that makes the real item.

 

If you are trying to make a quick buck, you likley don't have the time to spend designing something new.

 

For me the issue here is one of optimal design. Boeing and Airbus make planes that are remarkably similar becuase they represent the optimal solution to a set of specifications. If you look at the Lamy Safari and the Schneider Base (as I often do), they are remarkably similar. You could argue that they represent the results of a similar trail of thinking regarding the creation of a student pen. They could represent an optimal solution to a set of constraints.

 

If you are trying to compete for the same segment of the market, what would you do? If you tinker with the solutions you could have, making one that looks good is vastly trickier than you might think. Try it for a bit in the case of the Safari or Base... If you have limited time or money, you would copy what works...

 

It may well be that the Chinese factories making the copycat pens may not want to mess with what they think is an optimal design. It's a small possibility, but one that needs to considered in this discussion.

[Uncial]

Blatant fakes are a problem and need to be dealt with, but that's not what we are talking about here. I would agree that the Safari rip-offs/homages are a bit cheeky, but they aren't Safari 'fakes' in the true sense of that word; they are a vague imitation of poorer quality for less money. I don't really have a problem with that, although I do view it, as I said, as a little cheeky in terms of design. In some respects I actually quite enjoy the fact that in some cases China can produce their own branded pen that looks the same and writes reasonably well (sometimes if you are lucky, extremely well) for 1% of the price of the product they are mimicking. The fountain pen market in the West has been in great danger of veering towards the top end of the luxury market for some time, pricing out people who might otherwise be interested in a fountain pen. A lot of it - if we are honest - has been driven by a mixture of greed and that silly notion we call 'prestige'. The fact that China produces a huge range of cheap fountain pens gives me hope that my hobby and interest won't die out any time soon, whereas if it were to rely on the upper end of the Western market (which seems to get more ridiculous with its pricing with every passing year), fountain pen users might rapidly go the way of the dinosaur as the vast majority of people would simply be priced out of the market.

 

I would have a problem if these pens were fakes and passed off pens with another brand name that is not their own, but they don't do that. they essentially do the same as any tablet does in comparison to the iPad. They function the same as the iPad, they often look the same as the iPad and they have the same apps etc as the iPad - but they aren't an iPad. They are however, largely cheaper. You could claim that this is in some respects a bit of a 'fake' iPad, but not int he true sense; hence they exist.

 

Ultimately, I am rather pleased that China produces cheap pens that look a bit similar sometimes (but not always) to other products out there and ones that have existed in the past. People will buy them, use them and enjoy them, and the fountain pen experience and love will continue. If they weren't there, only the very wealthy would be continuing the fountain pen industry and it would be linked to the prestige of ownership rather than the love of the pen.

[Opooh]

Only an observation.

Many exquisite vineyards in France are bought by foreign capitalists, the whole production is exported. As a result I can't taste these wines anymore. They became capitalists by selling me cheap alternatives .

Therefore I will never buy cheap mass production.

[rochester21]

Therefore I will never buy cheap mass production.

 

Would you buy expensive mass production?

In Romania, we make our own wine in the countryside, but let me tell you, it`s hard work. Tastes better than what you find at the supermarket, though.

 

Wine or pens, it doesn`t matter. They are all mass produced these days....generally speaking.

Edited May 27, 2014 by rochester21

[richardandtracy]

One of my cousins has married an American who bought a French vineyard that they live on. They only make wine from their grapes. They export all their production (50000 bottles plus) for the following reasons:

1. The French will not pay as well as foreigners for good wine.
2. Because my cousin's husband is not French and has not come from a long history of French Vintners, no French company would handle his wine either inside or outside France. So he has had to set up his own export market in order to sell any wine at all. If he tried to sell in France his sales would be a big fat zero.
3. He has dared to try to 'improve' the wines by reducing variation between one year and the next. This has been treated as a crime against wine in the local area. It has also meant that in a good year his wine is not so good as some locally, but in a bad year, his production isn't vinegar like that of other local vineyards and he can have an income in bad years too. This has sparked a lot of jealousy.

Regards,

 

Richard

[Quillboy]

The few Chinese pens I have bought are of hit or miss quality. Specifically, I bought a quantity of the Jinhao 'Dragon rolling a Pearl' pens, and gave most of them away as Christmas gifts. But each pen I bought from China was of Chinese design, not a clone.

At some point, I think the original designs may become collectable and increase in value. Be hard not since they start out so cheap. The clones...? Not interested.

[Blazing]

I'll just give a short summary of my views after reading some of the comments here.

 

Now, we know that a lot of people have become attracted to the Chinese manufacturers such as Jinhao and Hero due to the comparable aesthetics whilst keeping a very low cost. We have to think about how these Chinese companies are cutting the costs, and one of the most obvious answers would be that they aren't using as many good quality materials as the original manufacturers. The original manufacturers aren't stupid; they could have done the same thing as these Chinese companies and cut the costs but they chose not to so that they could ensure that their products are as reliable as possible for their price range.

 

However, not everybody is aware of this and so we must take that into account. Therefore, it's my view that it's not ethically right for the Chinese companies to copy designs etc from a pen which is still being manufactured by the companies [such as Hero copying the Lamy Safari]. This is because they are directly affecting the original manufacturer's income due to people being unaware about how these companies cut the costs/unaware that it is copied off another company at all.

 

I find that it is completely fine for these Chinese companies to copy the original manufacturer's designs of an older pen which is no longer produced however because the original manufacturer no longer produces these pens and hasn't been making any money from it since discontinuing the pen, which means that the Chinese companies can't have affected the income for these companies directly in any possible manner.

[maus930]

What US manufacturers are they copying? -- not much left here -- the big players were moved (lock stock and no jobs) to Europe --- I don't think China had anything to do with that -- look to your multi- national corporations --so I don't see the problem --- It has been a long time since I have seen ads (Ebay or otherwise ) for Momt Blanc or Parker pens --- I have a lot of Chinese pens -- many are excellent writers and good value

[KBeezie]

However, not everybody is aware of this and so we must take that into account.

 

I feel confident that many people who are buying a $10 or less fountain pen knows that the materials or quality somewhere has been cut to meet that price point. Course that being said some of them are still better 'quality' (though maybe not consistently) than western brands at the exact same price point.

 

The paint job on all my Jinhaos for example is outlasting the paint job on my Monteverde pen. But I knew when I got the Jinhaos that I'd be getting something made with cheap brass and plastic and would be heavy, and might need some adjustments out of the box. so yes, I'm confident that people took cutting corners on materials used into account when looking at that $5-$10 chinese pen on ebay compared to something closer to $50-100 (which oddly I've had more external quality issues than with my Jinhao).

 

What US manufacturers are they copying? -- not much left here -- the big players were moved (lock stock and no jobs) to Europe --- I don't think China had anything to do with that -- look to your multi- national corporations --so I don't see the problem --- It has been a long time since I have seen ads (Ebay or otherwise ) for Momt Blanc or Parker pens --- I have a lot of Chinese pens -- many are excellent writers and good value

To me it seems like the only fanbase that seems to be up in arms over any imitations appears to be Lamy users over and over again. Most other designs (ie: Parker's) have been imitated to death, and I don't normally see Parker fans complain (plus the Hero 616 copying the P51 is of such low quality it's usually hard to claim it's anything close, but I will say Jinhao 599 in metal seems to write rather nicely )

Edited May 27, 2014 by KBeezie