Black Patrician - Did Waterman Mix Hard Rubber And Celluloid?

[terim]

We've got a black Waterman Patrician here. While the barrel is definitely hard rubber (rub-and-sniff test), I have my doubts about the cap and I think it might be celluloid.

 

Neither cap nor barrel have the hard rubber end pieces, but maybe those are only on the colored pens.

 

Did Waterman mix the hard rubber and celluloid pieces, or should we blame someone else?

 

http://www.peytonstreet.com/pens/waterman/patrician_black_1.jpg

http://www.peytonstreet.com/pens/waterman/patrician_black_4.jpg

 

If it's "wrong," well I guess I'll just have to wait for the right pieces to appear.

 

Thanks!

TERI

 

 

[Procyon]

I don't really know the answer as to whether Waterman mixed the celluloid and hard rubber barrels and caps on the black Patrician. It wouldn't surprise me though. However, I thought that only the celluloid pens didn't have the end plugs, so your barrel surprises me, if it is really hard rubber with no plug. My only black Patrician is hard rubber with plugs - the usual configuration.

[RMN]

I am far from knowledgeable about vintage pens. But what strikes me is the sober barrel and the rather ornamental cap band. They do not "belong" together.

 

D.ick

[Left FPN]

To be very honest the surface colour/tone match looks spot on and I think they look the bees knees together. But then again I know nowt about the older pens and their correctness.

[Procyon]

I am far from knowledgeable about vintage pens. But what strikes me is the sober barrel and the rather ornamental cap band. They do not "belong" together.

 

D.ick

 

 

Well, there is a gold lever and lever box on the other side of the barrel, which brightens it up a bit. I always orient them so the lever is lined up with the nib, but it appears this one has been done the opposite way. In any case, the basic appearance of this pen is absolutely correct. The appearance is basically the same whether it is hard rubber or celluloid. Most of the Patricians have fairly colorful barrels and caps, so they look anything but sober. Here is a picture of mine.

 

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7063/6853280493_96696eb2ba_b.jpg

[Left FPN]

Lovely, lovely, lovely....can you imagine the production line back then with, I suppose, hundreds of these lined up. Is the second from left a larger diameter model.

[Xof72000]

I am not sure they did mix the 2 materials, as they were not produced at the same period...

[Procyon]

Lovely, lovely, lovely....can you imagine the production line back then with, I suppose, hundreds of these lined up. Is the second from left a larger diameter model.

 

There is really only one size (very large) for the Patricians. I think the shadows to the sides of the pen look like a part of the pen on the black and pearl, making the pen look larger.

[Procyon]

I am not sure they did mix the 2 materials, as they were not produced at the same period...

 

I think Teri is concerned that she may have a marriage of cap and barrel from two different time periods. My question, though, is whether the barrel is really hard rubber, since it doesn't have the plug. I thought all hard rubber caps and barrels had a separate hard rubber plug.

[terim]

Yes, that's my exact concern. If Waterman didn't occasionally mix HR and celluloid caps and barrels, then I will not call this one correct and will wait for the right pieces to come together.

 

However, there must have been a time when they were transitioning to celluloid and had access to both kinds of caps and barrels.

 

I have no doubt the barrel is hard rubber. It's got the right smell, and though our photos make it look nice and dark, there is some of the browning I associate with hard rubber. The cap is pitch black.

 

Thanks!

 

TERI

[Uncle Red]

Teri, is the pen Canadian? What does the lever look like?

[terim]

Sorry for the delay. There's nothing that I can see that would indicate it's Canadian. You can see a little of the clip is the last photo below.

 

http://www.peytonstreet.com/pens/waterman/patrician_black_2.jpg

http://www.peytonstreet.com/pens/waterman/patrician_black_5.jpg

 

TERI

[cruise]

 

 

Well, there is a gold lever and lever box on the other side of the barrel, which brightens it up a bit. I always orient them so the lever is lined up with the nib, but it appears this one has been done the opposite way. In any case, the basic appearance of this pen is absolutely correct. The appearance is basically the same whether it is hard rubber or celluloid. Most of the Patricians have fairly colorful barrels and caps, so they look anything but sober. Here is a picture of mine.

 

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7063/6853280493_96696eb2ba_b.jpg

when I saw it, first thing which came to me was a song : I dreamed a dream ...

[Uncle Red]

Teri, sometimes the Canadian models are different than the US models. That doesn't mater here though. Might be a good time to PM Richard Binder or David Nishimura

[lbseals]

I was reading yesterday on a restorers site,I've been reading a ton recently, researching pens I was just given, they did mix cellulose and lucite. Maybe they did the same during transition in your case.

[terim]

Well, I just acquired a huge collection that contained a black h r Patrician and so I can compare. I think the pen that started this post does indeed have mixed materials. Whether it was put together by Waterman or not will probably remain a mystery .....

 

Teri

[Vintagepens]

I hesitate to make absolute statements about things that happened long, long ago, but on balance it is unlikely that Waterman ever deliberately mixed black celluloid and black hard rubber components in Patrician manufacture.

 

One thing I can assert with certainty, however, is that collectors will uniformly look upon a Patrician of mixed materials as a post-factory mashup.

 

David

[terim]

Yes, that would be how I would regard it too. Unless the combination is well known and common, it's not unfair to assume it occurred post-factory.

[Seney724]

Resurecting this 7 year old thread because I am finding myself a bit confused.

A friend brought over her recently acquired vintage Black Patrician and asked me if it was BHR or celluloid. 

Seemed simple enough.........it "looked" like celluloid and the rub test of both the cap & barrel seemed to confirm.

 

But then I noticed that both the cap and barrel were one piece construction.  To mean that neither the cap's cap top nor the barrel's medallion end jewel were screwed into place.  They both have the usual step off but there is no evidence they can be unscrewed.

Is this what is meant by "plugged?"

And, if it is what is meant by plugged, does that make this pen more likely to be BHR??

 

All of the other furnishings (clip, cap band, nib) are that of the traditional vintage Patrician

 

Can someone help me better understand the significance of plugged??  Does it differentiate among the vintage Patricians in terms of cap & barrel composition or date of production?

 

Thanks, in advance.

[Seney724]

Ok......

According to Davis & Lehrer (page 75 of their 2008 abridged book), it is just the opposite of what I thought...... a Patrician with a screw in cap top & medallion jewel are considered to be plugged.  It is the one piece construction is considered to be not plugged. 

 

Furthermore, apparently, one way to distinguish a BHR from a celluloid black Patrician is whether the ends are plugged or not.  The plastic Black Patricians are not plugged.

 

So, the rub test was correct.  My friend's vintage, unplugged Black Patrician is celluloid.

 

Please someone, let me know if this is not correct.

 

One last question:

Was Black the only colored celluloid Patrician which was not plugged?