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Diamine Should Develop Lubricated Inks Like Noodler's...


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If like me, you're UK based, and are missing certain qualities from Noodler's inks then I'm interested to know how you feel. I just paid a small fortune to get some lubricated ink yesterday, as it invariably has to come from abroad. We have our own, home grown and chromatically innovative Diamine up in Liverpool, and I want to press them to be more creative in this regard. Virtually everyone would benefit as Nathan is having a hard time keeping up, and Diamine already have so many admirers worldwide.

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You could always have a chat with Phil at Diamine about the issue and make some suggestions. Phil loves hearing from folks at FPN... just don't ask about the release date of Salamander - you won't get a straight answer from him on that subject.

 

DIamine would have to tread carefully though. If the "eel" additive from Noodlers is proprietary, they could get in hot water.

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I don't know what Noodlers is currently using as a lubricant, but I do recall Nathan Tardif was recommending adding a bit of glycerine for that purpose back in his pre-Noodler days, when he was doing a lot of plunger-filler repair work.

 

If you try adding a few drops to your Diamine, do let us know how it works out for you.

 

best

 

David

 

PS "Proprietary" doesn't necessarily mean "legally protected". If the formula is patented, though, it should be easy enough to look up its details.

Edited by Vintagepens
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I don't know what Noodlers is currently using as a lubricant, but I do recall Nathan Tardif was recommending adding a bit of glycerine for that purpose back in his pre-Noodler days, when he was doing a lot of plunger-filler repair work.

 

If you try adding a few drops to your Diamine, do let us know how it works out for you.

 

best

 

David

 

PS "Proprietary" doesn't necessarily mean "legally protected". If the formula is patented, though, it should be easy enough to look up its details.

I'm pretty certain it must be some kind of surfactant, in that it aids writing as much as aids the piston. Not sure I'm audacious enought to try the glycerine yet...

I've already sent an email to Diamine. They seem pretty open to developing new inks in conjunction with retailers in the UK, so I'm sure they'll be open to suggestion..

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I'm pretty certain it must be some kind of surfactant, in that it aids writing as much as aids the piston. Not sure I'm audacious enought to try the glycerine yet...

I've already sent an email to Diamine. They seem pretty open to developing new inks in conjunction with retailers in the UK, so I'm sure they'll be open to suggestion..

 

A surfactant lowers surface tension. The upshot should be greater flow with a thinner layer of ink on the tip. I think it should have the exact opposite of a lubricating effect when writing. Glycerin was my suspicion. I have added glycerin to inks before and made them more silky to write with, but my experiments with aging syringes makes me somewhat skeptical that glycerin provides significant lubrication for rubber pistons. Maybe it helps more with other materials.

I know my id is "mhosea", but you can call me Mike. It's an old Unix thing.

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Hi,

 

I have noticed that some Diamine inks seem to spread better over my convertors than others. :rolleyes:

 

The convertors usually have a light covering of silicone grease so that the plunger travel is lubricated, but some inks are able to overcome this and spread evenly over it, while with other inks clear patches are visible on the convertor where there is no ink at all.

 

On a few cheap Chinese pens (where the feed end does not project far enough into the convertor and a 'bubble' is able to persist at the bottom and cause ink flow loss), I have added a small amount of diluted rinse aid or dish detergent to the ink (there are several posts about it on FPN) - I'm not sure I would do this with a really expensive pen, but then the feed assembly should be much better designed - right?

 

Glycerine (being a suger alcohol) sounds a good safe bet, as the ionic fraction of some detergents/rinse aids might, over time, begin to corrode thin plated or plain s/steel nibs.

 

It might be possible for you to use coverage in a convertor as a diagnostic test to see which inks are more lubricated than others and would therefore work best for you? :)

 

Cheers,

E.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
'Perfection may be transient, but then so is everything.', MC

'All that a great power has to do to destroy itself is persist in trying to do the impossible.', Stephen Vizinczey

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From my experience, Noodlers "lubricated" inks do nothing to lubricate piston-fillers. Blue Eel is a wet ink with a pleasing color, but the rest is advertising baloney.Diamine Sapphire, for instance, is already lubricated enough for me.

 

Maybe Noodlers inks appear better than they are because they are hard to get in the UK, but the Noodlers line contains good inks, bad inks, cranky inks, ugly inks, beautiful inks...pretty much like De Atrimentis or any other ink-line.

Washington Nationals 2019: the fight for .500; "stay in the fight"; WON the fight

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On a few cheap Chinese pens (where the feed end does not project far enough into the convertor and a 'bubble' is able to persist at the bottom and cause ink flow loss), I have added a small amount of diluted rinse aid or dish detergent to the ink (there are several posts about it on FPN)

 

Adding liquid dish soap to ink is an old pen seller's trick to make pens write smoother at pen shows. Frank Dubiel recommended adding a tiny drop of dish liquid to the ink bottle as a cure for dry writing ink. He claimed that some ink manufacturers actually added one or two drops of dish soap to each gallon of their ink. A repair person told me to put one drop of dish liquid in a glass of water, stir it well, and then add one drop of that mixture to the ink bottle. I've never tried it, my pens are pretty wet writers and don't seem to need it.

Edited by ashbridg

Carpe Stilo

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We had a pretty good round table discussion on surfactants last year that touched on several alternatives along with quantities for addition.* The issue of a consistent and repeatable condition is probably the toughest for most people, and I counsel the use of a defined specific material for addition (e.g., PhotoFlo) instead of dishcleaning fluids, which vary considerably by brand. I've successfully taken inks that are considered "bad starters" or very reluctant flow inks into daily use inks with the (careful) addition of surfactants.

 

Dilution with distilled or deionised water is also a mechanism to improve flow for an ink.

 

There's also the consideration of adding stabilisers to limit the potential for SITB, which was very well summarised today by Sean, again, with some specific quantities for addition.

 

The key action in any of this is to run a carefully planned test (or five) with a small quantity, taking good notes on the amount(s) added.** There's little reason to have a lovely colour but a lack of flow performance in inks when adulterations of the ink are so easy...

 

 

John P.

 

 

* With a deferential tip of the hat to the lovely and perceptive Sandy1 who started this discussion area here in FPN.

 

** The mark of a good chemist is repeatable results (and yes, I'm more than slightly familiar with the UK usage of the term, as well as the US/Canadian one).

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I'm just so pleased that Diamine are getting the recognition they so rightly deserve, as being one of the foremost ink manufacturers. Not that there aren't others who also produce a range of quality inks that make the choice harder each time we want to try something new or different. But if all the ink makers produced inks with similar properties to each other, then things could get a little boring.

So if people want ink with a particular property, then it seems they will just have to grin and bear the cost, from wherever they have to get it from. Even, for example the Penman series, if it is discontinued.

The Good Captain

"Meddler's 'Salamander' - almost as good as the real thing!"

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Note: Noodler's Eel is supposed to lubricate piston fillers. I see no evidence that it does. I've tried it in several piston pens, and about the most I found was that, somehow, Eel crawled around the piston in an old Onoto K and found some spots that let it leak through the blind cap.

 

It is, however, a nice ink on its own.

Washington Nationals 2019: the fight for .500; "stay in the fight"; WON the fight

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Never tried "Eel" inks, though Polar Blue was supposed to be an "eel" I guess.

 

There has to be something in some Noodler's inks though, because they leave black residue.

Imagination and memory are but one thing which for diverse reasons hath diverse names. -- T. Hobbes - Leviathan

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Never tried "Eel" inks, though Polar Blue was supposed to be an "eel" I guess.

 

There has to be something in some Noodler's inks though, because they leave black residue.

I suspect that Polar Bear is specially formulated to withstand low temperatures. Fountain pens were never used to write outside in sub-freezing temperatures, so Polar Bar is another specialty Noodlers ink that I ignore.There must be a market because Noodlers sells it, but not to me.

 

Noodlers makes two Eel inks: Blue Eel and Turqoise Eel. Both are supposed to lubricate piston fillers. As far as I know, they do not, but they are good inks for normal use.

 

Noodlers makes several specialty inks for cold weather, others supposedly to prevent fraud, to prevent forgery, to stick to a page (and your clothes!) when in contact with water. The forgery-proof inks seems like false advertising, since forgery happens when someone imitates your signature on your blank check. Many banks default to safety checks, checks that use a paper that turns colors if a crook tries to alter it...hence, "check washing" is a rare thing nowadays, if it is done at all. My banker colleagues have never seen it.

 

There are, of course, massive financial frauds perpetrated every day. The SEC has just charged a pair of JPMorgan traders with hiding losses on a derivatives deal they set in motion. This cost Morgan bank about $6 billion. No fountain pen ink would have stopped that.

Washington Nationals 2019: the fight for .500; "stay in the fight"; WON the fight

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I don't know what Noodlers is currently using as a lubricant, but I do recall Nathan Tardif was recommending adding a bit of glycerine for that purpose back in his pre-Noodler days, when he was doing a lot of plunger-filler repair work.

 

If you try adding a few drops to your Diamine, do let us know how it works out for you.

 

best

 

David

 

PS "Proprietary" doesn't necessarily mean "legally protected". If the formula is patented, though, it should be easy enough to look up its details.

+1. There are hundreds of surfactants (detergents) available since decades, like Emulgens, Tritons etc and if by law you aren't allowed to use one in the manufacturing of an ink because that ink is already patented, then all you have to do is use a related isomer, e.g. Emulgen 913 instead of 911, Triton X-114 instead of X-100. I have used all of these and also found that any dishwater detergent works just as well. All you have to do is be careful not to overdo it. E.g. start off small, like 0.001% w/w (= w/v) and the go upwards to 0.01% etc.

 

Mike

Life is too short to drink bad wine (Goethe)

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Noodlers has quite a few inks in their "Eel" series...I must admit that most of the Diamine inks that I own are perfectly sufficient when it comes to lubrication, though.

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Noodlers makes several specialty inks for cold weather, others supposedly to prevent fraud, to prevent forgery, to stick to a page (and your clothes!) when in contact with water. The forgery-proof inks seems like false advertising, since forgery happens when someone imitates your signature on your blank check. Many banks default to safety checks, checks that use a paper that turns colors if a crook tries to alter it...hence, "check washing" is a rare thing nowadays, if it is done at all. My banker colleagues have never seen it.

 

 

 

 

A little sidestep from the thread but.....

 

The Noodler's "Bulletproof" range has to go down as one of the successful marketing "ploys" in the fountain pen world in recent years.

 

What did people use to write cheques before Noodlers came along? How could people be happy which just a normal water resistant ink?

 

 

There are some nice Noodlers inks, and no doubt someone may need to write something in -20C, or an ink that is only visible under black light, or an ink which is more toxic than Penman Sapphire that is known to ruin pens, but for me it just reeks of attention seeking.

 

For me, a company like Diamine, which just quietly pumps out good quality inks, which are well behaved, well priced and perform on the whole better than Noodlers, wins the vote for me.

 

Or am I missing something?

 

Ren

http://img356.imageshack.us/img356/8703/letterminizk9.png http://img356.imageshack.us/img356/7260/postminipo0.png

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Or am I missing something?

 

It depends on your point of view. IME, there is a rather pronounced difference in perspective to be aware of between folks in the US and UK over what sort of marketing is normal and expected. What passes for mundane in the US may come across as brazen or even as "puffery" to UK folks. Certainly Nathan's marketing of ink properties engenders no negative reactions from me. He's supposed to make his pitch, and he's making it.

 

As for all the crazy inks, like the "invisible" one, you know I think he makes them because he can, maybe because he wants them. I remember Al Nagler of Tele Vue explaining why he designed ultrawide telescope eyepieces. He would tell you that he was an amateur astronomer, and he wanted them.

Edited by mhosea

I know my id is "mhosea", but you can call me Mike. It's an old Unix thing.

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It's the old horses for courses thing again.

 

For decades my family used only Quink - because that was readily available. Then I found this site of enablers, and discovered inks from companies such as Diamine, Herbin, De Atramentis, Noodlers, Private Reserve and a whole host of others.

 

I've been brave this year and sampled some wonderful inks, and some others where I have gone meh.

 

I think part of the mystique of Noodler inks on this side of the Atlantic is that there is only a limited range available unless you are willing to pay for international postage. And I'm not, because it's only ink.

 

I like to support UK suppliers and manufacturers where possible, and in the case of ink, this is possible.

 

There is nothing wrong with Quink, Waterman, Aurora, Visconti, Private Reserve, Noodler, R&K, De Atramentis, Montblanc and the many other ink brands that I've forgotten to mention.

 

But Diamine sell small and large bottles, in a large range of colours at good prices. Works for me.

 

That said, I'd like it if they produced a couple of waterproof inks in black and a strong blue, other than their Registrar's ink, which is just too dry for my taste in modern pens. For the time being, I am using the De Atramentis Dcoument Ink

 

And in answer to the question as what ink was used on cheques prior to the Noodlers Bulletproof inks - originially it was iron gall, because that was what was available.

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I am a great fan of Diamine. Their inks are always reliable although performance does vary colour to colour. I find Eclipse seems very well lubricated - if you tried writing with oil I imagine it might be similar but take longer to dry! So, maybe they already have the technology for lubricated inks.

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A little sidestep from the thread but.....

 

The Noodler's "Bulletproof" range has to go down as one of the successful marketing "ploys" in the fountain pen world in recent years.

 

What did people use to write cheques before Noodlers came along? How could people be happy which just a normal water resistant ink?

 

 

There are some nice Noodlers inks, and no doubt someone may need to write something in -20C, or an ink that is only visible under black light, or an ink which is more toxic than Penman Sapphire that is known to ruin pens, but for me it just reeks of attention seeking.

 

For me, a company like Diamine, which just quietly pumps out good quality inks, which are well behaved, well priced and perform on the whole better than Noodlers, wins the vote for me.

 

Or am I missing something?

 

Ren

Spot-on!

The Good Captain

"Meddler's 'Salamander' - almost as good as the real thing!"

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