A Question Of Ethics

[lalindsay225]

Out of curiosity yesterday, I Googled "Chinese pen supplier," and a website by that name appeared. It looks to sell mostly fake MontBlancs, Parkers, etc., and fake designer watches as well.

 

I burst out laughing at one of the fake MontBlancs -- it's a fountain pen in that odd, orangey-red color that I have only ever seen before in Chinese pens. I am sure MontBlanc never made anything that color. But they are selling it as one, birdsplat and all, for $25.

 

I am toying with the idea of buying this oddity for my collection -- not to sell or to pass off as a MontBlanc, but because it amuses me because it's such an obvious fake.

 

But I have some scruples -- buying this pen would mean giving money to someone who is breaking trademark law.

 

What do you think?

[rochester21]

How come you managed to find such a cheap replica? when i searched for them, the cheapest was about 40 dollars ! It seems that even the chinese have figured out that it`s the name that sells, not the objects themselves.

 

Now, the trademark law. I tried to find out whether it is legal or not to buy counterfeit goods as a private individual, and i found 2 contradicting responses. I guess it depends on the country`s law in this respect.

For me, if it`s not illegal or immoral, then it`s ok. Buying a knock-off will have no effect on Montblanc sales, but it would probably encourage the chinese to make even more replicas. This is neither good, nor bad, as long as the fakes are not sold as the real deal.

I once had a montblanc replica, it was quite a good writer for some time !

 

As for the "ethics" part, is it ethical to make a plastic pen and advertise it as made from "precious resin" in order to sell it for 500 dollars? don`t think so. My point being- there are lot of unethical things in the world, some are legal and considered very ethical, while others are not. You just have to make up your own mind about which is which.

Edited June 26, 2013 by rochester21

[thedeacon]

I would not be able to do it. I despise any individual or group that produces and markets fakes. I don't care what language they use, i.e. Mont Blanc like, Mont Blanc style etc. It's fraud and trademark infringement any way you cut it. Unfortunately, there will always be a market for these knock-offs. I just chose not to support that market.

[Uncle Red]

I don't think I'd buy it from the manufacturer or distributor. I'd buy it used from someone who declared it a fake. I know that there are people that collect fake Leica cameras (lots came out of the USSR/Russia) and Matt Groening (The Simpsons creator) collects Bootleg Simpsons products (he doesn't seem to mind buying from people passing it off as the real thing).

[Art Sebastian Life]

Hello to all, I am new to world of the Fountain Pen, I'm buying a chinese pen but couldn't wait so I bought a Lamy Safari, medium nib to start with. I have been writing with textas, but thought I should progress on to real ink. This post caught my eye on the question of ethics as a consumer. It's funny our we feel about the brands we love, our loyaltie to these company's that spend vast amounts of money doing research to find out what we love. I would say that we crave authenticity more than anything else, you only have to look at the packaging on the supermarket shelf. The posts on this thread seem only concerned about the company's not the people that do the work. The guy or gal on the factory floor that makes these pens, what conditions and what pay do they live in. This argument could take many turns but I would like to point out that we tend to treat the companys that we know and love like people when there not there are a legal entities for making money, do they have the same rights as you or I, or more? I like Chinese goods, I don't like what the people have to go through and will not be buying another Apple product ever, purely because of the conditions that these products are made, I say that now but when the time comes to replace my computer will I have the courage of my convictions, I don't know about that yet. We are coming to an election in Australia and I have no choice but to buy a counterfeit, as both candidates are market rip offs, I guess sometimes you just can't tell the differance between a real and a fake. But the pen in question, I would buy as it might be a charmer for your collection and may write the page of your dreams.

Edited June 26, 2013 by Art Sebastian Life

[rwilsonedn]

I believe your actual question was whether you were giving money to someone who is breaking trademark law. That's a fairly complicated question. If they were making the pens in Germany, it's a pretty obvious yes: the birdsplat is trademarked there. But how about in China? We really need to hear from a trade or IP lawyer on this one. I believe that China has pledged in principle to respect international trademarks. But in this particular case, has the maker been convicted of trademark violation? I don't know. In China as in the US, if I'm not mistaken, someone is at least technically innocent until found guilty in court. A court might rule MB's splat trademark invalid in China, or that the differences between your vendor's splat and MBs were sufficient to avoid violation. Or they might not.

ron

[rochester21]

Well, i personally have thought about the people that are involved in the manufacturing process. But original or copy, the consumer has very little chance of finding where his money goes to, and how the workers are treated. This is the modern age.

 

I have thought of a counter-argument to buying counterfeit pens- i have zero issues with pens that copy a design, but not the brand. Example: parker 51 and hero 616 jumbo. The pens are very similar, but not identical, and have different names.

 

But in the case of replicas, the manufacturer isn`t just concerned about replicating the design(which is a very important, functional element in the object itself), he wants to make people think that his product is genuine- otherwise he would put his own brand on the product, and not someone else`s.

So in this case, making or selling pens with the express purpose of deceiving people is definitely wrong.

 

On the other hand, this is a consumer-related thing. Big companies invest huge amounts of money in advertising campaigns aiming at making people want a certain product. Montblanc, for instance, is great at doing this. And some people can`t afford to pay that much money on a pen, but want the prestige that having such an object brings. So they buy a replica. In this case, my question is: how come companies are allowed to transform people into consumer slaves by making them watch advertisments all day long, without any decent restraints ? How come it is legal to make people watch 200 advertisements every single day of their lives?

 

So i could simply state that there is absolutely nothing wrong with buying fake products, because they are simply a side effect of consumer society, which i, for one, am not responsible for at this point. So why should i care for "trademark law" and stuff like that ???

Edited June 26, 2013 by rochester21

[lalindsay225]

Yes, that sums up my feelings perfectly. I have other Chinese models that resemble certain American pens, but they were clearly sold as say, Hero pens, and not the Parker pens they resemble. I guess what bothers me is that this pen is being sold as a MontBlanc, which it obviously isn't.

 

Hmm -- maybe I should just print out a color picture to laugh at, thus not encouraging further sales of counterfeit items by making a purchase. Thanks for your input.

[Art Sebastian Life]

In this case, my question is: how come companies are allowed to transform people into consumer slaves by making them watch advertisments all day long, without any decent restraints ?

How come it is legal to make people watch 200 advertisements every single day of their lives?

So i could simply state that there is absolutely nothing wrong with buying fake products, because they are simply a side effect of consumer society, which i, for one, am not responsible for at this point. So why should i care for "trademark law" and stuff like that ???

Intersting questions on the problem we face as modern primitives. You can refuse to own a TV, but then consider how many adds you see as you go about your daily life, just driving around town, pick out one brand and count the amount of times it has been shown to you. We live in a world full of coprate graffiti, and we are becoming coperate slaves. To the point where we can't escape it, we need to buy stuff that breaks down so we can buy more stuff that breaks down, so the cycle of growth continues. It's like were fenced in and the only way out is to keep buying stuff and with that we need advertising. So what do we do, we become numb to it and then they figure out away to get through the numbness they help to create, till eventualy we're stupified. I would have a guess and say that people who like to write with nib and ink are longing for something, a pen stroke that can last 200 years, a thought that transends current thinking. I love the language of the late 1800's and I'm looking to teaching my self the common script of the day and as I love America for all it's fobles and governmental bungaling, it's the oddballs that I find atractive, I think the spenciarian script is the one for me. At this stage I'm in the delightful period of novice and may at some stage in my life be able to write a nice looking letter that has thought and consideration to the written word and is a delight to the recipient.

[pencils+pens]

The OP is an American. Importing goods that are known to be counterfeit is a violation of US law. Although the chances of getting caught bringing in a single pen may be near nil - it is still illegal for both the exporter and the importer. US law can be enforced against either or both, but try enforcing it against the exporter.

 

Several US agencies have responsibility for stopping the entry of counterfeit goods. Among them are: FBI, US Customs and Border Protection (CBP), US International Trade Commission and National Intellectual Property Rights Coordination Center.

 

So long as Montblanc has a valid registered trademark, the US anti-counterfeiting laws can be enforced against the importer.

 

For those who don't think importing counterfeit goods is not illegal try googling "importing counterfeit goods".

[I like mango cheesecake]

It seems that the OP is seeking validation from FPN members for his personal conviction to accept fake pens rather than to explore the ethical moral or legal implications of such a purchase.

[Laura N]

It seems that the OP is seeking validation from FPN members for his personal conviction to accept fake pens rather than to explore the ethical moral or legal implications of such a purchase.

 

I don't see that at all. She instead appears to have raised the ethical issue herself, and asked for opinions.

 

My opinion is, I try to respect others' intellectual property rights as I would want mine to be respected. As an example, I will listen to CDs from the library, but not burn them into my computer. However, be advised that thanks to the RIAA, it is not legal to burn into your computer any CD, even if you own it, even if it's strictly for your own use. Insert Dickens quote about the law here.

 

I wouldn't buy a counterfeit MB, personally, because I do think it's wrong to enable piracy. But also, practically, the quality is often wretched. There are a lot of other pens you can buy for the same price, where the money will at least go to people who have developed something on their own.

 

With regard to the Matt Groening anecdote, one reason to buy counterfeits, besides just to get a good laugh, is to have evidence to enforce your rights against the makers and sellers. To research the fakes. And to defend yourself when an irate customer complains that her $25 Montblanc fell apart. Etc. The real companies always buy the fakes.

Edited June 27, 2013 by Laura N

[GClef]

I

 

http://i1128.photobucket.com/albums/m496/gclef1114/Tutuguans/0627130318-1_zps98e277e1.jpg

 

Your Lifestyle Has Already Been Designed

[I like mango cheesecake]

 

I don't see that at all. She instead appears to have raised the ethical issue herself, and asked for opinions.

 

My opinion is, I try to respect others' intellectual property rights as I would want mine to be respected. As an example, I will listen to CDs from the library, but not burn them into my computer. However, be advised that thanks to the RIAA, it is not legal to burn into your computer any CD, even if you own it, even if it's strictly for your own use. Insert Dickens quote about the law here.

 

I wouldn't buy a counterfeit MB, personally, because I do think it's wrong to enable piracy. But also, practically, the quality is often wretched. There are a lot of other pens you can buy for the same price, where the money will at least go to people who have developed something on their own.

 

With regard to the Matt Groening anecdote, one reason to buy counterfeits, besides just to get a good laugh, is to have evidence to enforce your rights against the makers and sellers. To research the fakes. And to defend yourself when an irate customer complains that her $25 Montblanc fell apart. Etc. The real companies always buy the fakes.

I hear this argument the OP is making all the time on watch forums I am on. Why would anyone pay 6K for a Panerai, when they can get a cheap Chinese knockoff for a couple hundred bucks. THese posters want validation and approval from the watch community for getting the cheap fakes. They point to all the pros for a fake and all the cons for getting the real thing and try to convince everyone that help him or validate him to get the cheap knockoff without having that guilty conscience of purchasing an illegal product.

 

Usually the OP loses the argument and is never heard of again, or the subject is never brought up again by the OP.

Edited June 27, 2013 by I like mango cheesecake

[richardandtracy]

I will buy pens that are re-engineered copies of western pens - like the Kaigelu 316 and 356. These do not claim to be Parkers even though they are almost identical. To salve my concience about the design idea theft, I buy a copy of the original pen too - and with the two pens mentioned there is depressingly little extra for the massively higher price original.

 

One thing I will NOT do is buy deliberate fakes. I have used that website mentioned to find some pens & models that are faked & use it as a reference resource for acting as a warning on potential fakes elsewhere.

 

To the best of my knowledge, buying, owning and selling a fake is illegal in most western countries. Knowing it's a fake can be used by prosecutors as an aggrovating factor in sentencing.

 

Regards,

 

Richard.

[lovemy51]

I hear this argument the OP is making all the time on watch forums I am on. Why would anyone pay 6K for a Panerai, when they can get a cheap Chinese knockoff for a couple hundred bucks. THese posters want validation and approval from the watch community for getting the cheap fakes. They point to all the pros for a fake and all the cons for getting the real thing and try to convince everyone that help him or validate him to get the cheap knockoff without having that guilty conscience of purchasing an illegal product.

 

Usually the OP loses the argument and is never heard of again, or the subject is never brought up again by the OP.

 

it's no wonder, after comments like yours! incidentally, the OP has been posting way longer than you.

 

BTW: the only reason why i don't buy MB fakes is cause i don't like MB in the first place... otherwise, i won't ask for validation.

 

edited: i don't like cheesecake either.

Edited July 14, 2013 by lovemy51

[dcwaites]

Just to be difficult, what is a fake anyway?

If Mont Blanc don't make orange pens, is the orange one a fake?

Most fake Mont Blancs have a basic converter filling system, and many are made of brass, so they don't look and feel like the real thing. Are they fakes?

Is it just the presence of the snowflake that makes a fake a fake?

For example, I have seen a Rolls Royce grill attached to the front of a Volkswagon Beetle. Does that make it a fake Rolls?

I would expect any fake MB pen to be a close copy of the original, not only including snowflake and clip, but filling mechanism and nib/feed.

[richardandtracy]

If someone is using something that is a registered trademark or design, and do not own or have permission to use that trademarked intellectual property, then it is a fake.

 

If a fake MB uses the snowflake and is engraved with the MB name, then regardless of the fact it's an orange pen with a c/c, it's still a fake.

 

Regards,

 

Richard.

[dontheo]

Well from a person who manufactures products in China, not pens, there are some pens that are look alikes but are obviously not authentic. Then there are the counterfeit products, theses are often manufactured in very extensive detail. To buy those while iam there you need an invitation to the "back room". There is nothing we can do here but not support it. However, most of what you will see imported has some flaws that will give it away.

 

There is absolutely no respect for intellectual property. I saw them steal the formula for lacomb products and open a store right next door. But the worse I saw was a major U.S. manufactuerer of paint who was there to open a plant for the manufacture of automotive paints and most was to stay there as automobiles in h Shanghai area were just becoming more popular and affordable. I became friends with there person setting up the plant over the course of a few months. One day I arrive back at the hotel and he is at the bar crying. The paint formula was analyzed and stolen. It was devastating and there was no one to turn to for asistance.

 

I did get to go to the back room many times and it was amazing at the number of people buying with huge wads of cash in their hands. I was there collecting information and doing research but our Customs agents did let me keep one item. It's not a pen but I have not found anyone who could tell the difference

[cednocon]

Have they ever tried to... or are already producing fake versions of the real inks? I'm sure its a low profit margin for them, but still, seeing as how much we all need ink and some brands like Iroshizuku and Montblanc Limited Editions can probably be faked. I do buy my inks at reputable online fountain pen web sites. But I'd worry about, say, a Montblanc Albert Einstein ink in Ebay.

 

Another thing to worry about--and this is more of pens sold on ebay--is that the counterfeiters can easily rough up or "age" a pen and say that it is "Authentic with some micro scratches due to normal wear and use." Then you have 20+ people bidding thinking it has to be real because it looks like a Montblanc or Pelikan from the 70s or 80s with actual ink stain and micro scratches from use.

 

Anyway, just thoughts here.