What Liquefied This Sac?

[watch_art]

I think all David is saying is that there may well be other situations similar to his where people come into contact with different chemicals at work or play, and if they have some residue on their hands it can destroy their sacs. Then they're left wondering, what the hell?

 

And to make it more complicated and impossible to pin down, he also said (I think) that there may be some contaminants at the factory where the boutique ink makers get some of their ingredients. If they're buying "dirty" ingredients then they have no way of knowing that their inks will kill sacs later on down the road. Could be part of the reason why there are so many conflicting stories as far as "Ink A killed my sac" and "Ink A didn't kill MY sac."

[Ron Z]

No, I think that what David is saying is that pen mechanics have seen a correlation between boutique inks or if you will, super saturated inks, and sac failure. While not in his opinion definitive, you shouldn't ignore it either.

[corniche]

Greetings all,

 

I have not read all of the posts in this 6 page diatribe; however, I'll chime in my two cents. From what I read in the beginning, all of the sac disasters occurred when people mixed Eastern and Western brands of ink - this should not be done! As Pengoddess said, it is close to impossible to COMPLETELY clean out a pen and I tend to agree with that - it could also explain these problems - because when you mix an acid based ink with an alkali based ink; often times you'll end up with a corrosive goo.

 

I do not recommend mixing the two classes even in easy to clean C/C pens, let alone a sac pen/lever filler, etc. As far as Noodlers and Private Reserve inks, I'll reserve judgment here. The bottom line from me is: select a group of pens and use only Asian branded inks in them, (which tend to be basic), and take another group of pens and use only Western branded inks in them, (which tend to be acidic). The problem with Noodler's inks, are that some are acidic and some are basic, and no one but Nathan knows which is which, so you can run into problems there.

 

I think his standard black is acidic, but the BS colors are alkaline; the rest of the line is a bit of a mystery.

 

All the best,

 

Sean

[watch_art]

couldn't somebody get those little test strips that show acidity and base and just test the inks? We used him in college biology classes.

[corniche]

Hello Watch Art,

 

Unfortunately, for inks, those strips are useless - the ink dyes the strip and obiterates the color change which indicates what the pH rating is. For inks, you need an electronic meter - and a reliable one is a few hundred dollars - plus they have to be cleaned and re-calibrated between each test - which gets to be quite a job in a short time.

 

All the best,

 

Sean

Edited September 2, 2013 by S. P. Colfer

[mhosea]

Sam Capote did several measurements, reported here

 

https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php/topic/154941-checking-the-ph-of-inks/

 

 

but apparently he got tired of doing it.

[raging.dragon]

Greetings all,

 

I have not read all of the posts in this 6 page diatribe; however, I'll chime in my two cents. From what I read in the beginning, all of the sac disasters occurred when people mixed Eastern and Western brands of ink - this should not be done! As Pengoddess said, it is close to impossible to COMPLETELY clean out a pen and I tend to agree with that - it could also explain these problems - because when you mix an acid based ink with an alkali based ink; often times you'll end up with a corrosive goo.

 

I do not recommend mixing the two classes even in easy to clean C/C pens, let alone a sac pen/lever filler, etc. As far as Noodlers and Private Reserve inks, I'll reserve judgment here. The bottom line from me is: select a group of pens and use only Asian branded inks in them, (which tend to be basic), and take another group of pens and use only Western branded inks in them, (which tend to be acidic). The problem with Noodler's inks, are that some are acidic and some are basic, and no one but Nathan knows which is which, so you can run into problems there.

 

I think his standard black is acidic, but the BS colors are alkaline; the rest of the line is a bit of a mystery.

 

All the best,

 

Sean

 

Most Noodler's inks, including all the archival inks (Eternal, Bulletproof, etc.) are close to pH neutral. The Baystate inks and at least one V-mail ink (North African Violet) are basic. The properties of inks like Dark Matter (a vintage recreation) and the other V-mail inks are unknown.

[raging.dragon]

One of the most interesting posts in this thread, excerpt below, seems not to have received sufficient attention (full post here):

 

 

This is relevant on several levels. If there are ingredients that can kill a sac that quickly in such low concentrations, and if those ingredients can so easily be transferred from surface to surface unintentionally, one wonders how many cases of sac failure may have nothing to do with ink, but are the result of this sort of inadvertent contamination. Or, since the killer compounds were found in certain specialized printing inks, is it possible that it some cases a tiny amount may have accidentally made its way into certain fountain pen inks, perhaps as a contaminant in a pigment or dye bought from an outside supplier?

 

best

 

David

 

Another possibility would be common household chemicals: cleaners, perfumes, nail polish remover, etc.. These could contanimate ink (either during manufacturing or during use) or the water used to flush a pen.

 

 

I can't speak for others, but for me (and I think I was the one who coined the term), "boutique" inks are exactly those inks you cite: premium inks made by smaller companies, typically offering qualities and colors not available in mass-market inks.

 

As far as causality and correlation is concerned, it seems clear that the causes of premature latex sac failure are complex. At the same time, we'd be foolish to ignore patterns of correlation that may help us solve this problem. The important thing is to see these patterns as possible clues, not as definitive evidence.

 

best

 

David

 

Additionally, instead of avoiding specialty inks, perhaps it would make more sense to use more robust Silicone sacs?

 

EDIT: I'm not trying to suggest that David has an ulterior motive, instead I'm saying that I think David's current and planned products are a potential solution to this issue.

Edited September 3, 2013 by raging.dragon

[raging.dragon]

No, I think that what David is saying is that pen mechanics have seen a correlation between boutique inks or if you will, super saturated inks, and sac failure. While not in his opinion definitive, you shouldn't ignore it either.

 

And there would seem to be several mechanism via which super saturated inks could damage latex sacs, for example:

1. A small number of the super saturated inks are alkaline and their alkalinity might be damaging latex sacs
2. Some or all super saturated inks might use surfactants that can dissolving the latex sacs
3. Some super satured inks might contain dyes with metal ions and other components that can attack the latex sacs

So at this point there are several avenues for further investigation. The evidence also suggests that some sacs are more vulnerable than others so manufacturing variations between sacs must also play some role.

[corniche]

 

Most Noodler's inks, including all the archival inks (Eternal, Bulletproof, etc.) are close to pH neutral. The Baystate inks and at least one V-mail ink (North African Violet) are basic. The properties of inks like Dark Matter (a vintage recreation) and the other V-mail inks are unknown.

 

Hello RD,

 

Thank you for this info; however, the pH rating does not reflect the entire picture, just part of it. Even pH neutral inks will either have an acidic formula or a basic formula as their base, which can be adjusted to pH neutrality through the addition of "counter-balancing" chemicals; however, the foundation of the ink formula still remains acidic or basic - and these two separate classes of ink should not be mixed.

 

It depends on a lot of variables- once in a great while, nothing happens; other times, the pen will skip or clog and then other times, you have what prompted this thread - a total melt-down.

 

It could also be something else completely un-related to this. I just chimed in with this hypothesis as a definite possibility of the problem.

 

All the best,

 

Sean

 

Edit: Just as an added tidbit - Private Reserve and Colfer's Imperial Inks were both pH neutral, but both have (or had) acidic formulas.

Edited September 3, 2013 by S. P. Colfer

[Dr.Grace]

OK, Sean, clearly one wouldn't want to mix inks from a basic class with those from the acidic category. But otherwise, is there a way to tell that two inks are incompatible? I mean, let's assume that one has already looked for the obvious signs after mixing two inks in a vial, i.e., macroscopically there's no separation or precipitation visible within a day or two. Is such a mixture then OK to use in a pen?

[corniche]

OK, Sean, clearly one wouldn't want to mix inks from a basic class with those from the acidic category. But otherwise, is there a way to tell that two inks are incompatible? I mean, let's assume that one has already looked for the obvious signs after mixing two inks in a vial, i.e., macroscopically there's no separation or precipitation visible within a day or two. Is such a mixture then OK to use in a pen?

 

Hello Dr. Grace,

 

Let's assume we have two inks that we want to mix and we're not sure whether or not they are acid or basic solutions and we do not have a pH meter. This is the way I would handle it, others may wish to chime in on their strategies.

 

1. Take a NEW, CLEAN sample vial and put the inks inside in the proportions that give you the color you like - this is important, because as you know, different proportions will yield different results - so make sure your test is equivalent to what you'll be using in your pens.

 

2. Inside the vial, place a spare JUNK nib and a fragment of ink sac. If you do not have spare junk nibs, xfountainpens sells Nemosine nibs for $6 or so; there are quite a few places that sell ink sacs- shop around for the best price because you'll be cutting them into pieces. BUT, make sure the ink sacs you purchase are the types of ink sac your pen(s) have - different materials will vary in response to the test solution.

 

3. Tightly cap the vial, give it a good shake and set it down; have a cup of coffee and play with the dog... or cat.

 

4. Come back an hour or so later, (after the inks have had time to sufficiently intermingle), and give the concoction a good sniff, (try to remember this smell the best you can, make some notes about what it reminds you of, etc., if that will help). Also observe the color, (hold it up to the light), and viscosity, (stick a sterilized paper clip or other stick in the vial and see how it coats it and how it drips), of this fresh sample - make notes of all of your observations.

 

5. Set the vial in a cool, shady area and forget about it.

 

Three to four days later, get the vial.

 

6. Open the cap and listen for a hiss; if none, good.

 

7. Observe the ink - is it holding together well? Any indications of dye disintegration or component breakdown/separation? Repeat all the other steps in Step #4 - have there been any changes?

 

8. With sterilized tweezers, pull out the nib and the ink sac, (this is a good time to really test any changes in viscosity), does the ink cling to the nib or does it drip off freely? Any changes to the sac? Does it look or feel "mushier"? (BE SURE TO HAVE CLEAN HANDS, WASH FIRST - you don't want to contaminate the sample).

 

9. Any changes in odor? Any sediment forming? Any staining? Any color changes? Any changes at all? How did the nib and sac fare? Make notes.

 

Tightly re-cap the vial and put it back. One thing, you do not want to check the vial too often- every time you open that cap, you are inviting air-borne plagues in. So, keep the checking to a minimum.

 

After 7-9 days, come back and repeat Steps #6-9 and see what you have.

 

Do this again after 14 days, if everything is still kosher after two weeks, you most likely have a safe combination.

 

If you're planning on using this mix in an old or expensive pen, you may want to give it three weeks just to made absolutely sure.

 

If one is acid and one is base, the ink will become more viscous and will usually change into a "gooier" consistency; the odor will usually also change; unfortunately, HOW it changes, can vary a lot. If you have a real bad reaction, the sac will dissolve and the nib will corrode - but this doesn't always happen. Often times the reaction isn't that severe- so pay careful attention to odor and viscosity changes. It is the viscosity changes that will cause your pen to skip, have ignition problems or out and out clog up.

 

I hope this helps, if you have any further questions, please lmk.

 

All the best,

 

Sean

 

 

Edited to add: Some may question the long test time I recommend; they may say, I would never allow an ink to stay in a pen for three weeks, so why should I bother with this? The answer to that being, no matter how well you flush/clean your pens, there are always residual traces of ink left behind in the feed, (especially the fins), and it is these residual traces that can give you big headaches later. So it is always best to do long-term tests.

Edited September 3, 2013 by S. P. Colfer

[MyriamV]

2. Inside the vial, place a spare JUNK nib and a fragment of ink sac.

In the slight chance that the sac material could be altered by metals, wouldn't it be preferable to put the nib and the sac fragment in separate vials juust to make sure the nib doesn't affect the sac material?

[corniche]

In the slight chance that the sac material could be altered by metals, wouldn't it be preferable to put the nib and the sac fragment in separate vials juust to make sure the nib doesn't affect the sac material?

 

Hello MyriamV,

 

This is an unlikely event; as you know, the metals used in nibs are geared towards use in conjunction with various ink and sac materials. However, if you are the extra cautious type, or you are using very cheap nibs which may use sub-standard materials and fear a possible interaction, by all means, use two separate vials.

 

All the best,

 

Sean

[raging.dragon]

 

[...]

 

2. Inside the vial, place a spare JUNK nib and a fragment of ink sac. If you do not have spare junk nibs, xfountainpens sells Nemosine nibs for $6 or so; there are quite a few places that sell ink sacs- shop around for the best price because you'll be cutting them into pieces. BUT, make sure the ink sacs you purchase are the types of ink sac your pen(s) have - different materials will vary in response to the test solution.

 

[...]

 

Just like sacs, nibs are available in a variety of materials and these may react differently with an ink. For a real world example: Visconti found that some inks corroded the stainless steel rods they used to use in their powerfillers. Switching to titanium eliminated the corrosion problems. Conversly an ink that's safe with Stainless Steel may stain 14K gold. And then there are the various materials from which feeds, barrels, and caps are made of.

 

There's always some small risk when trying a new ink (or mix) in a pen.

Edited September 4, 2013 by raging.dragon

[corniche]

 

Just like sacs, nibs are available in a variety of materials and these may react differently with an ink. For a real world example: Visconti found that some inks corroded the stainless steel rods they used to use in their powerfillers. Switching to titanium eliminated the corrosion problems. Conversly an ink that's safe with Stainless Steel may stain 14K gold. And then there are the various materials from which feeds, barrels, and caps are made of.

 

There's always some small risk when trying a new ink (or mix) in a pen.

 

Hello RD,

 

I see what you mean- thank you for this information; now I see where Myriam was heading. The test I discuss above was designed primarily to see if the two INKS are compatible with each other as well as the sac material; so perhaps it is best to leave the nibs out of the equation altogether, (to be honest, I added the nib to the equation as an afterthought).

 

I'll tell you, things are getting too complicated these days for an old-time inksmith like me.

 

Thanks again for the info,

 

Sean

Edited September 4, 2013 by corniche

[raging.dragon]

 

Hello RD,

 

Thank you for this info; however, the pH rating does not reflect the entire picture, just part of it. Even pH neutral inks will either have an acidic formula or a basic formula as their base, which can be adjusted to pH neutrality through the addition of "counter-balancing" chemicals; however, the foundation of the ink formula still remains acidic or basic - and these two separate classes of ink should not be mixed.

 

It depends on a lot of variables- once in a great while, nothing happens; other times, the pen will skip or clog and then other times, you have what prompted this thread - a total melt-down.

 

It could also be something else completely un-related to this. I just chimed in with this hypothesis as a definite possibility of the problem.

 

All the best,

 

Sean

 

Edit: Just as an added tidbit - Private Reserve and Colfer's Imperial Inks were both pH neutral, but both have (or had) acidic formulas.

 

I believe Private Reserve inks are designed to be safely mixed with each other?

[corniche]

 

I believe Private Reserve inks are designed to be safely mixed with each other?

 

Hello RD,

 

Yes, I know, that was one of the points I was laboring to make.

 

All the best,

 

Sean

[raging.dragon]

 

Hello MyriamV,

 

This is an unlikely event; as you know, the metals used in nibs are geared towards use in conjunction with various ink and sac materials. However, if you are the extra cautious type, or you are using very cheap nibs which may use sub-standard materials and fear a possible interaction, by all means, use two separate vials.

 

All the best,

 

Sean

 

 

The metals used in nibs are mostly choosen for their resistance to corrosion by water and acids(in general acids corrode metal faster than water, while bases will corrode metal slower than water). Latex sacs are specially treated so they won't degrade when touching metals. So sacs are far more likely to be affected by the presence of a nib, than nibs are to be affected by the presence of a sac.

[raging.dragon]

 

Hello RD,

 

I see what you mean- thank you for this information; now I see where Myriam was heading. The test I discuss above was designed primarily to see if the two INKS are compatible with each other as well as the sac material; so perhaps it is best to leave the nibs out of the equation altogether, (to be honest, I added the nib to the equation as an afterthought).

 

I'll tell you, things are getting too complicated these days for an old-time inksmith like me.

 

Thanks again for the info,

 

Sean

 

 

In the end, if I was terribly worried about damaging a particular pen (due to exceptional value, rarity, sentimental attachment, etc.), I'd either only use it with the safest possible inks, or even refrain from using it at all!