Jump to content
Classifieds is broken, please do not submit any new ads ×

What Liquefied This Sac?



Fiddlermatt

Recommended Posts

Fiddlermatt

I recently acquired a Sheaffer Snorkle from a member on the forums here. I filled it up with Platinum Aurora Blue, and it wrote wonderfully. Later, I flushed it thoroughly and inked it with Noodler's Black for school-work. However, after two or three sentences it would stop writing. I gave it the water test, and it would not suck up or expel water except a few drops at a time. Today I opened it up and saw black ink on EVERYthing. The spring, sac protector, and piston rod were coated in it. I also saw something sticking out of the holes of the sac protector--it turned out to be a liquefied sac. What could have caused this? Here's a picture.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v64/kingmog/DSCN05971_zps3196606d.jpg

Wanting to trade for samples of fountain pen friendly legal pad paper.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 209
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

  • mhosea

    28

  • Ron Z

    14

  • 79spitfire

    13

  • FarmBoy

    12

I know that pen! It was in perfect condition when Matt received it. Ron Zorn had done a thorough restoration including a new sac. I had inked it only a few times, with Sheaffer Skrip (blue) and it wrote flawlessly. Its hard to avoid concluding that Noodlers ink is at fault, particularly when others here on FPN have reported similar incidents with Noodlers in the past. :hmm1:

Link to post
Share on other sites
Fiddlermatt

I know that pen! It was in perfect condition when Matt received it. Ron Zorn had done a thorough restoration including a new sac. I had inked it only a few times, with Sheaffer Skrip (blue) and it wrote flawlessly. Its hard to avoid concluding that Noodlers ink is at fault, particularly when others here on FPN have reported similar incidents with Noodlers in the past. :hmm1:

 

Sorry for wrecking you pen! :roflmho:

Wanting to trade for samples of fountain pen friendly legal pad paper.

Link to post
Share on other sites

This is I'm afraid becoming more common. You may perhaps have provided your own answer:

Later, I flushed it thoroughly and inked it with Noodler's Black for school-work.

 

Several pen restorers have seen an increase in premature sac failures with the use of the "boutique" inks in the last few years. This is why I have had to limit the warranty on sacs to 90 days. I buy what I believe to be the best sacs available, but I can control neither the ingredients that go into the latex uses in sacs, nor the inks that are used in the pens. Some don't play well together. The evidence is anecdotal, but I believe valid.

 

Case in point. At the 2012 Philadelphia pen show I restored two identical pens for someone. The sacs were the same size, came from the same batch, and the pens restored at the same time. Noodlers was been used in pen #1, other inks in pen #2. The sac had failed in pen #1 and turned to goo. Draw your own conclusions....

 

To be fair, I've also seen premature sac failures in pens that were used with red ink, or colors that contain red like brown and purple. Brand didn't seem to matter, but the inks were pretty well saturated.

spacer.png
Visit Main Street Pens
A full service pen shop providing professional, thoughtful vintage pen repair...

Please use email, not a PM for repair and pen purchase inquiries.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Fiddlermatt

That's pretty much what I had assumed. Can you guess what's happening to what's left of this bottle of Noodler's? :bonk:

Wanting to trade for samples of fountain pen friendly legal pad paper.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I know that pen! It was in perfect condition when Matt received it. Ron Zorn had done a thorough restoration including a new sac. I had inked it only a few times, with Sheaffer Skrip (blue) and it wrote flawlessly. Its hard to avoid concluding that Noodlers ink is at fault, particularly when others here on FPN have reported similar incidents with Noodlers in the past. :hmm1:

 

Sorry for wrecking you pen! :roflmho:

 

Nah, consider it a lesson learned! Sorry it was at your expense, but I guess I will be avoiding those super saturated inks. If you send it back to Ron he can work his magic, it will set you back some $ and you wont have use of the pen until the summer, but it will live again!

Link to post
Share on other sites

Thats incredible...would have never thought that could happen, until I saw it.

 

Sorry for your loss.

"As the purse is emptied, the heart is filled." -- Victor Hugo

 

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f241/centurycigar/2j26aaa_zpsf21706be.png

Link to post
Share on other sites

Hmm. I've been using Noodler's black for many months now in my Esterbrook SJ with absolutely no problems what so ever. Sorry to see you've run into a problem with it.

"Minds are like parachutes. They only function when open." James Dewar

http://i49.tinypic.com/2j26aaa.png

Link to post
Share on other sites
hbquikcomjamesl

Maybe my preference for sticking with Sheaffer and Pelikan isn't so dumb after all. They're cheap, relatively inert (except that the blue doesn't play well with fluorescent yellow highlighter, which is why I go to the extraordinary trouble to get non-fluorescent ones), and time-tested.

--

James H. H. Lampert

Professional Dilettante

 

Posted Image was once a bottle of ink

Inky, Dinky, Thinky, Inky,

Blacky minky, Bottle of ink! -- Edward Lear

Link to post
Share on other sites
Fiddlermatt

Thanks for the replies. I've sent Noodler's an email with a link to this thread, we'll see what kind of comment they make on it. I can tell you this though: I am searching for a new black ink, bulletproof-ness be splashed...

Wanting to trade for samples of fountain pen friendly legal pad paper.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for the replies. I've sent Noodler's an email with a link to this thread, we'll see what kind of comment they make on it. I can tell you this though: I am searching for a new black ink, bulletproof-ness be splashed...

 

herbin perle noire...as harmless, black and waterproof as any ink ever needs to be

 

edited sp

Edited by mark e
Link to post
Share on other sites

There are two sac producers that I'm aware of, one had a formulation problem that left sacs in a goo state even when not exposed to ink.

 

I'd be interested to know which sac source the sac came from though I suspect it is the same as I use.

 

The instances of this occurring are on the rise.

San Francisco International Pen Show - The next great pen show is on schedule for August 27-28-29, 2021. If we all do what we need to do...you can Book your travel and tables and make SF 2021 the Return. 
 

 My PM box is usually full. Just email me: my last name at the google mail address.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I know that pen! It was in perfect condition when Matt received it. Ron Zorn had done a thorough restoration including a new sac. I had inked it only a few times, with Sheaffer Skrip (blue) and it wrote flawlessly. Its hard to avoid concluding that Noodlers ink is at fault, particularly when others here on FPN have reported similar incidents with Noodlers in the past. :hmm1:

 

Sorry for wrecking you pen! :roflmho:

 

Nah, consider it a lesson learned! Sorry it was at your expense, but I guess I will be avoiding those super saturated inks. If you send it back to Ron he can work his magic, it will set you back some $ and you wont have use of the pen until the summer, but it will live again!

 

If you've got a can of shellac handy, just buy a new sac. You can find directions many places throughout the web, and it doesn't take four months.

 

I mean, it's just a simple sac replacement, after all.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I had one do this last year, but the pen had never seen the ink brand in question. I had filled it with a sample from Diamine, I don't remember the color, but it was a purple ink. (which of course has a red component) I calked it up to a bum sac and moved on. One of the other sacs from the batch was used in a 'redkneck' converter project for a pen which took odd sized (very thin) cartridges and, as far as I know, has held up fine. That pen is constantly inked with Sailor Sky High, and is a favorite of my daughter's. I may see if I can find it and try putting different inks into it until I find one that causes it to fail.

 

Which reminds me (a tad off subject...) Ron, how are the silicone sacs coming? All the ones I've used (in pens that take 18s) have so far worked flawlessly. (and they look cool too!) any 14s, 16s, 20s in the works???

Increase your IQ, use Linux AND a Fountain pen!!http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/kk11/79spitfire/Neko_animated.gif
http://fedoraproject.org/w/uploads/5/50/Fedorabutton-iusefedora.png

Link to post
Share on other sites

Funny this thread pops up: about a year and a month or so ago, I bought a later Sheaffer Triumph Touchdown from Teri Morris. She had installed a new sac, which failed about a month in. New experience to me, so I sent it back and she gladly re-sacked. I hadn't used the pen in a while and when I went to use it, I noticed stray ink. I opened up the plunger and saw ink all over the metal sheath. Took it apart and the entire end of the sac was soft bubble gum.

 

The culprit? Either another poor sac or... a red ink? Not cheap - it had Pilot Iroshizuku Yama-budo in it. I'm hoping for an anomalous sac, that's for sure. I think I've got enough sacs in hand to put this one in the queue (oh, what a year or more in pendom does to your tinkering), so it should be interesting. The pen has a great nib, so I want to keep it in service.

 

Thanks for the thread, thanks always to Ron and FB for good info.

"When Men differ in Opinion, both Sides ought equally to have the Advantage of being heard by the Publick; and that when Truth and Error have fair Play, the former is always an overmatch for the latter."

~ Benjamin Franklin

Link to post
Share on other sites

I still think that there is an issue at times with different inks combining and causing a problem. It is almost impossible to rinse a pen 100% clean, there's always a little hint of some color of ink left lurking in the sac regardless of how many times you rinse it out.

 

Let's see - if I caught all the different posts, this pen has had the following inks inside it with the same sac of unknown origins: Sheaffer Skrip Blue, Aurora Blue and Noodler's Black. Also whatever ink Ron used to test the pen when he originally restored it.

 

How old was that Skrip Blue? Sheaffer had some problems recently with Slovenian production of Skrip that I believe is resolved now, but if it was a "current" production bottle of Skrip Blue, it might have had an issue. If it was "vintage" Sheaffer blue, perhaps something had gone off in that. What other pens had been filled from those bottles of Skrip Blue, Aurora Blue and Noodler's Black - did they have any leftover ink that could have been introduced unknowingly into the bottles?

 

I use all of these inks and a bunch of others, too. The only sacs I personally have seen melt down were from "that" bad sac batch a few years ago (let's not go there!) and that was limited to Snorkels.

 

I've been using Noodler's Black since BEFORE it was even introduced to the public in all sorts of pens with sacs and all sorts of other filling systems and I just haven't seen any issues with it.

 

We need to analyze further and not jump to conclusions about this :)

 

Sam

Link to post
Share on other sites

Which reminds me (a tad off subject...) Ron, how are the silicone sacs coming? All the ones I've used (in pens that take 18s) have so far worked flawlessly. (and they look cool too!) any 14s, 16s, 20s in the works???

I believe you are thinking of David of Vintage Pens.

San Francisco International Pen Show - The next great pen show is on schedule for August 27-28-29, 2021. If we all do what we need to do...you can Book your travel and tables and make SF 2021 the Return. 
 

 My PM box is usually full. Just email me: my last name at the google mail address.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Is it possible we’re seeing some confirmation bias here?

 

 

Over the last ~2.5 years, I’ve had six latex sacs fail in six different snorkel pens.

I started a similar thread after the first failure, here. :)

 

Three of those pens had never seen a single drop of either Noodlers or PR. The first one had only been filled with three inks (Black Quink, Mont Blanc Royal Blue, and Waterman Florida Blue) – each generally seen as safe and low-maintenance. None of my other latex sac or vac diaphragm pens have yet experienced a snorkel-style meltdown .

 

I expect more sac failures from my snorkel pens . After the third occurrence, I chalked it up as a quirk of the breed. They’re still my favorites, though. I’ll continue to use them with whatever inks strike my fancy. If I have to re-sac a few every so often, so be it.

 

I suspect that whatever is behind this phenomenon is a bit more complex than just ink choice. Of course, I can only speak to my own (admittedly limited) experience, and the plural of anecdote is not data. I don’t have the time, training, or inclination to properly investigate the chemistry of latex ink sac failure, so I won’t try and dissuade anyone from taking whatever precautions they feel appropriate.

Link to post
Share on other sites

To answer Sam, I use Pelikan blue to test pens and nothing else, and have for a number of years now. I use the same ink and paper so that ink and paper are removed as a variable when testing for flow and smoothness. It's also a safe ink, and I can buy it by the liter. How does it react with sacs? Just fine - it's in all of my pens, most of which are vintage. I've never had a sac turn to goo using it. But when I have a pen come back with a sac turned to goo and ask what ink they were using, the answer more often than not is one of the boutique inks.

 

Sacs are Pen Sac Company, exclusively. Note that the failure I mentioned in an earlier post was not a snorkel. Also note that all sacs are coated with pure talc prior to being installed in the sac guard to protect the latex and to minimize contact with the metal of the sac guard.

 

As for flushing - pens are spun in a centrifuge, flushed with water, then spun again to remove all of the water. There isn't much left behind.

 

David Nishimura is the one making the silicone sacs.

Edited by Ron Z

spacer.png
Visit Main Street Pens
A full service pen shop providing professional, thoughtful vintage pen repair...

Please use email, not a PM for repair and pen purchase inquiries.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now


  • Most Contributions

    1. amberleadavis
      amberleadavis
      37649
    2. PAKMAN
      PAKMAN
      30433
    3. Ghost Plane
      Ghost Plane
      28220
    4. jar
      jar
      26101
    5. wimg
      wimg
      25570
  • Upcoming Events

  • Blog Comments

    • halffriedchicken
      Not sure if this has been suggested already but would a setting for localized regions or chapters in FPN be helpful? I don't know if there is a way to find local FPN members who would be nearby. I don't know if we want to be discoverable but a setting to know how many members are in 25, 50, or a 100 miles of each other might be helpful. We can create a regions specific network like Craigslist where people could use that to connect with nearby members, conduct in person sales, arrange FPN meetups
    • Daneaxe
      Hi again all, I forgot to tell y'all that I made the post about Sweden ink PIF. Most have probably found it long ago, but here's a link, anyway:      
    • Ayami_109
      I read your blog post and all the replies with much interest. I'm a FP user in Australia. Been part of this forum for years but rarely post. I did come across your ink sharing thread and considered participation. For me it's not lack of interest but lack of time to play around with FP and inks. I'd feel bad to put my hand up for the box and just have it sit until gosh knows when...   I also think that the FP community in Australia is smaller, and I wonder how many in the community are
    • A Smug Dill
      Even so, you'd end up with a fragmented list, and it becomes an O(N²) process for each prospective requestor to check what is available: effectively recreate the list of currently active servers (without any reliable up-to-date info upfront about the inks and number of samples on offer in the thread) from the sequential list of posts, which may be spread over two or even more pages, and then query each server independently to check what is currently on offer.   It comes down to not hav
    • LizEF
      If one wanted to do this, one could just use the "About Me" field which appears to be unlimited in size.  And if a bunch of people wanted to cooperate, the Member Title field (or signature) could be used to this end - "Ink Giver" (or some such) could be used by those with inks to give...  No software edits required.
  • Chatbox

    You don't have permission to chat.
    Load More
  • Expiring Soon

    • By benbot517
      51 years and 6 months
    • By benbot517
      51 years and 6 months
    • By benbot517
      51 years and 6 months
    • By Okami
      51 years and 6 months
    • By Okami
      51 years and 6 months
  • Random Adverts

  • Files

  • Today's Birthdays

    1. APonte
      APonte
      (30 years old)
    2. Carol_af
      Carol_af
      (64 years old)
    3. cnjackson
      cnjackson
      (49 years old)
    4. Conz
      Conz
      (55 years old)
    5. Corvus77
      Corvus77
      (73 years old)





×
×
  • Create New...