Sailor 1911 Mid Sized Vs. Pilot Custom 74 Vs. Platinum 3776 Vs. Pilot Vanishing Point

[Au79]

Hello everyone, I'm new to fountain pens. I prefer a very fine and precise pen for writing. Right now, I use a 0.5mm mechanical pencil for writing. However, I hold it at a 60 degree angle using the "ballpoint pen grip" so that the line is thinner. It might be a 0.4mm or 0.3mm line from the angle I'm holding it from. Since fountain pen inks tend to make the line bigger than the nib size, I'm wondering if I should get an Extra Fine nib. I also heard Japanese nibs make thinner lines than European nibs of the same width.

 

I've done some research on the Big Three (Sailor, Pilot, Platinum) and I've found the Sailor 1911 mid sized, Pilot Custom 74, Platinum 3776, and Pilot Vanishing Point.

 

What I want is a nib that does not flex and is not springy. I'm not sure if it's called a nail, a hard nib, or a nib with shock absorption. I want a nib that is durable and is able to be written with quickly without it being torn apart.

 

I heard that 14k gold nibs are the best because they're durable and hard.

 

Which of those four pens do you recommend? I heard the Pilot Custom 74 is a bit dry, the Sailor 1911 mid sized has a small sweet spot, the Platinum is a bit cheap in build quality, and the Pilot Vanishing Point can be scratchy (and that it can be hard to tell if it comes with a gold or steel nib based on descriptions online). Also, I've heard the Custom 74 has the most ink storage, the 1911 mid sized has really legendary nibs, the 3776's air tight cap is useful for keeping the ink from drying out, and the Vanishing Point has convenience.

 

Requirements:

1. Smooth nib.

2. Ink line must not be bigger than 0.5mm (This probably means I need to get an Extra Fine.)

3. Should work out of the box.

4. Flow must not be too wet so it writes like a marker, and not too fine so it's like writing with a quill.

5. Must be able to be used to write quickly with (No flexible or springy nibs.)

 

Extra Points (not necessary, but would be nice to have this as well)

1. Doesn't run out of ink so quickly.

2. 14k gold nib if possible.

3. Durable, and not fragile.

4. High quality feel.

5. Good balance (unposted or posted) [are we supposed to post fountain pens or are we not supposed to?]

 

Thank you for helping out a newcomer!

 

*UPDATE: Which do you guys prefer among the Platinum 3776 series, the Platinum 3776 Century or the Platinum 3776?

 

Below are some good points from a similar thread.

 

"https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php?/topic/220767-help-needed-with-choosing-a-pen/

 

1911:

Heavier than the 3776

Stiff nibs that write smoothly

Fantastic feeds that don't give up

Small ink supply

Comes in a demonstrator model and many different colours, nibs, and materials to choose from

 

 

 

3776:

Cheaper build quality

Comes with an adapter for international cartridges and converters

Feeds just as good as Sailor

Stiff, but slightly springy nibs

Steel nibs are just as good as the gold nibs

Come in a limited colour range

Post really well

 

 

Custom 74:

Come in a range of colours and tinted demonstrators

Very long, especially when posted

More of a classic look than the others

Flow is not so good, and they can have dry nibs out of the box (adjusting them makes them great though)

Can use the CON-70, which is a really good converter

Very smooth nibs that are the springiest of the lot, can get soft nibs that are even flexier"

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

UPDATE #2:

 

Thank you for all the good replies! Right now, I'm deciding on the Sailor 1911 mid sized EF vs. the Pilot Custom 74 F (EF is not available unfortunately). Since I write Kanji and cursive on college ruled paper, would I have an issue with the Custom 74's Fine nib? I do not like my lines to be too broad, and look for accuracy in my writing. I use a Papermate Write Bros Fine Point, which is a pretty nice. I also used to use a disposable white plastic 0.7mm ballpoint pen. It looked like this: http://content.etili.../1011766251.jpg except that the red part on the top of the pen and where the point is were black colored. Instead of saying AlphaBasic Skillcraft, it said 0.7mm. It might've been a Bic, but I'm not sure. Do you guys know which pen model it might have been? It would quite nice.

 

Anyway, I've written with a Pelikan m200 F before, and I thought it was too wide for my tastes. I really like the Sailor 1911 mid sized because of the EF nib, but I some say the Custom 74 isn't as picky about where the nib meets the paper and at what angle. I watched this video where a Custom 74 was being tested, and the nib was semi-flexed or was semi-spingy. I wish there were more stores to try out fountain pens, but I guess ballpoints reign supreme now...

 

Sailor 1911 mid sized EF vs. Sailor 1911 mid sized F vs. Pilot Custom 74 F

 

Does the classical black and gold look seem better or demonstrator?

 

I plan on buying from the Nibs site (which I have no affiliated with) which a couple people recommended. If 6 is the average flow, which number flow should I get? I don't want to be writing with something scratchy, but I also don't want to write with a flow that would cause my lines to become not accurate and thin. So basically, I want something precise but not scratchy, and smooth but not too wet.

 

Which pen among these would you guys recommend to me due to my preferences? Thanks!

 

Sailor 1911 mid sized EF:

- Stiffest nib

- Picky sweet spot

- Careful due to the finer nib

- Smaller ink reservoir, but negated by extra fine nib

 

Sailor 1911 mid sized F:

- Stiffest nib

- Picky sweet spot, but maybe more forgiving than with the EF nib

- Careful due to the finer nib, but not as careful as with the EF nib

- Smaller ink reservoir

 

Pilot Custom 74:

- Springier nib than the other two

- Not as picky sweet spot

- Can be scratchy and dry at first supposedly due to the feed

- May need adjustments before it works well

- Pen body is straight rather than elliptical, which is nice

Edited October 28, 2012 by Au79

[AltecGreen]

Here some comments I based on what you wrote.

 

 

 

 

1) the width of a line on a piece of paper written with a fountain pen is a function of the nib width, set-up (flow, etc)., the ink and the paper. You cannot separate the various parameters. Nib width has a very large effect as does set-up. On the larger nib widths, the ink and paper can have a very strong effect.

 

2) Smoothness of a nib can be adjusted. I think what you meant was smoothness out of the box. The wider the nib width, the easier it is for the nib to be glassy smooth. You just have a larger surface area to work with. Conversely, on very fine nibs, at some point there is a limit to smoothness because you the area of the nib touching the paper is comparable to the inherent roughness of the paper. To use very fine nibs, you need a very light touch. You should not have to exert any pressure to write. I mean zero pressure.

 

3) If you try to write with a fountain pen the way you write currently with a mechanical pencil, you may encounter difficulties and may require special tuning of the nib.

 

4) Excluding the Vanishing Point from the discussion for now, the three remaining pens are nearly equivalent. They compete against each other in roughly the same price point. They really are equivalent and its more of a matter of taste. The Capless (aka Vanishing Point) is a totally different pen with different characteristics.

 

5) None of the nibs on any of the pens you mentioned are in any way flexible. The standard nibs on all three cannot even really be classified as being springy. Pilot does offer the 74 with soft nibs (SF, SM, etc.) but these are different than the 'stock' F, M, etc. nibs. All of the can be used for fast writing. Actually, you can write really fast with a flexible nib too. You ust have to be used to doing so and have a light touch.

 

6) If you really have to split hairs, then yes, the Sailor nibs are the stiffest.

 

7) For a given designation like fine, medium etc., a Japanese nib will be anywhere from a half to more than one size finer than their European counterpart. This is true for modern pens. For vintage pens, you have to more careful with generalizations like this.

 

8) Platinum and Sailor have slightly finer nibs than Pilot. This is a loose generalization and ignores the fact that even within a given company's line, there are variations. For example, the medium on Pilot Vanishing Point is not quite the same as the #5 medium nib on Custom 74 even though its from the same company. Sailor and Platinum offer EF and EEF nibs (SEF or UEF for Platinum and the Saibi Togi nib for Sailor). Note-Platinum (and hence Nakaya) changed their nib design recently to the one used on the 3776 Century. The reports suggest that the new Platinum nibs run a bit wider than the previous versions.

 

9) The more exotic Sailor nibs except the Saibi Togi all produce a much broader line.

 

10) There is not such thing as best anything. 14k was the most popular gold alloy used in fountain pens unless the country had rules where a higher gold content was required for te nib to be called gold (e.g. France). 14k has advantages if you are going to modify the nib for flexibility because 18k nibs are a bit too soft to get the best results. The Japanese companies all engaged in a 'carat' war in the 1970's. Sailor eventually won when they sold pens with 23K nib. Platinum went to 22k and Pilot I believe went to 21 k. Sailor still makes the higher 21k nibs whereas Platinum and Pilot abandoned the higher content gold nibs long ago. FYI-Danitrio uses a 24K gold nib on their Yokozuna series of pens.

 

11) Before you get confused about the 1911, see this post I made about the sizes of the 1911 which is really the Sailor Profit.

 

12) None of these pens have a huge ink capacity compared to other pens on the market. If you use cartridges, then the capacity is very close for all three. The Pilot does have the highest capacity converter and Sailor the smallest.

If you need a huge ink reservoir, then none of these are ideal choices.

 

 

13) All of these pens are durable. None feel too cheap but this is very subjective. If you want all of these attributes but want the best fit and finish then you should be looking at pens like a Nakaya, Hakase, or Tsuge instead.

 

14) I have some comments about the comments you dug up from the other thread.

 

- the 1911M is lighter than a 3776. The 1911M is 17g while the 3776 is 17.8. The Century version are even heavier. The full sized 1911 is heavier but then that pens is equivalent to a Platinum President or Pilot 742/743.

- Sailor nibs and feeds are not any better or worse than their counterparts from Platinum or Pilot.

 

- the 3776 is limited in colors in resin form, however the 3776 is used for many Platinum models including 6 celluloid versions and four wooden body versions.

 

- none of these pens post any better or worse than the others. They all do posts. FYI-I just took out all three pens and compared them.

 

 

15) The nibs from all three companies have different styles of grind thus they have very different feel. One is not better than another just different. Only you can decide which feel is best for you. In case you are wondering, I prefer Platinum/Nakaya nibs. Although I own the most Pilots followed by Platinum then Sailor. In use, I prefer Platinum, Sailor, then Pilot. (Pilots are more collectible and yes, I own a large number of pens).

 

16) The Vanishing Point is a totally different kind of pen. The main selling point is the ..well...mechanism. The current standard VP is fairly heavy. The slimmer Decimo is less so and the Fermo is much heavier. If you need the Capless function then you don't have much choice. If you don't like the current placement of the clip on a Vanishing Point then consider a vintage version. The Capless was introduced in 1963 and has undergone several changes in the styling as well as materials. I prefer the 1965 model myself.

 

17) You really can't go wrong with any of these pens. They are all very similar. If you want the finest line then I would go for the Sailor or Platinum EF. However, you might not like the feel if you have a heavy hand and write with a high angle. If so, then you should consider a fine or even a medium. If you have a heavy hand, the it will come down to a tradeoff of smoothness versus line width.

 

18) The best thing is to try all three (or four) and see which ones you like. That really is the best way. If you cannot and need to figure out linewidths, you could buy a Sailor or Platinum deskpen. These are $15-20 and have EF nibs. If you like those then you can go with EF in one of the above pens. If you find them too scratchy then you may have to get a wider nib and sacrifice the fine line.

 

19) If you buy any of the above, I would recommend getting it from nibs.com. They sell all three lines and they will tune the nib before shipping. This helps you to get something that actually works when it arrives.

 

 

As for my 'personal' recommendation, buy a Nakaya. :roflmho:

 

Otherwise, my standard recommendation is a red band Parker 51 or first generation Omas Extra Lucens.

Edited October 27, 2012 by AltecGreen

[manolo]

Here some comments I based on what you wrote.

 

 

 

 

1) the width of a line on a piece of paper written with a fountain pen is a function of the nib width, set-up (flow, etc)., the ink and the paper. You cannot separate the various parameters. Nib width has a very large effect as does set-up. On the larger nib widths, the ink and paper can have a very strong effect.

 

2) Smoothness of a nib can be adjusted. I think what you meant was smoothness out of the box. The wider the nib width, the easier it is for the nib to be glassy smooth. You just have a larger surface area to work with. Conversely, on very fine nibs, at some point there is a limit to smoothness because you the area of the nib touching the paper is comparable to the inherent roughness of the paper. To use very fine nibs, you need a very light touch. You should not have to exert any pressure to write. I mean zero pressure.

 

3) If you try to write with a fountain pen the way you write currently with a mechanical pencil, you may encounter difficulties and may require special tuning of the nib.

 

4) Excluding the Vanishing Point from the discussion for now, the three remaining pens are nearly equivalent. They compete against each other in roughly the same price point. They really are equivalent and its more of a matter of taste. The Capless (aka Vanishing Point) is a totally different pen with different characteristics.

 

5) None of the nibs on any of the pens you mentioned are in any way flexible. The standard nibs on all three cannot even really be classified as being springy. Pilot does offer the 74 with soft nibs (SF, SM, etc.) but these are different than the 'stock' F, M, etc. nibs. All of the can be used for fast writing. Actually, you can write really fast with a flexible nib too. You ust have to be used to doing so and have a light touch.

 

6) If you really have to split hairs, then yes, the Sailor nibs are the stiffest.

 

7) For a given designation like fine, medium etc., a Japanese nib will be anywhere from a half to more than one size finer than their European counterpart. This is true for modern pens. For vintage pens, you have to more careful with generalizations like this.

 

8) Platinum and Sailor have slightly finer nibs than Pilot. This is a loose generalization and ignores the fact that even within a given company's line, there are variations. For example, the medium on Pilot Vanishing Point is not quite the same as the #5 medium nib on Custom 74 even though its from the same company. Sailor and Platinum offer EF and EEF nibs (SEF or UEF for Platinum and the Saibi Togi nib for Sailor). Note-Platinum (and hence Nakaya) changed their nib design recently to the one used on the 3776 Century. The reports suggest that the new Platinum nibs run a bit wider than the previous versions.

 

9) The more exotic Sailor nibs except the Saibi Togi all produce a much broader line.

 

10) There is not such thing as best anything. 14k was the most popular gold alloy used in fountain pens unless the country had rules where a higher gold content was required for te nib to be called gold (e.g. France). 14k has advantages if you are going to modify the nib for flexibility because 18k nibs are a bit too soft to get the best results. The Japanese companies all engaged in a 'carat' war in the 1970's. Sailor eventually won when they sold pens with 23K nib. Platinum went to 22k and Pilot I believe went to 21 k. Sailor still makes the higher 21k nibs whereas Platinum and Pilot abandoned the higher content gold nibs long ago. FYI-Danitrio uses a 24K gold nib on their Yokozuna series of pens.

 

11) Before you get confused about the 1911, see this post I made about the sizes of the 1911 which is really the Sailor Profit.

 

12) None of these pens have a huge ink capacity compared to other pens on the market. If you use cartridges, then the capacity is very close for all three. The Pilot does have the highest capacity converter and Sailor the smallest.

If you need a huge ink reservoir, then none of these are ideal choices.

 

 

13) All of these pens are durable. None feel too cheap but this is very subjective. If you want all of these attributes but want the best fit and finish then you should be looking at pens like a Nakaya, Hakase, or Tsuge instead.

 

14) I have some comments about the comments you dug up from the other thread.

 

- the 1911M is lighter than a 3776. The 1911M is 17g while the 3776 is 17.8. The Century version are even heavier. The full sized 1911 is heavier but then that pens is equivalent to a Platinum President or Pilot 742/743.

- Sailor nibs and feeds are not any better or worse than their counterparts from Platinum or Pilot.

 

- the 3776 is limited in colors in resin form, however the 3776 is used for many Platinum models including 6 celluloid versions and four wooden body versions.

 

- none of these pens post any better or worse than the others. They all do posts. FYI-I just took out all three pens and compared them.

 

 

15) The nibs from all three companies have different styles of grind thus they have very different feel. One is not better than another just different. Only you can decide which feel is best for you. In case you are wondering, I prefer Platinum/Nakaya nibs. Although I own the most Pilots followed by Platinum then Sailor. In use, I prefer Platinum, Sailor, then Pilot. (Pilots are more collectible and yes, I own a large number of pens).

 

16) The Vanishing Point is a totally different kind of pen. The main selling point is the ..well...mechanism. The current standard VP is fairly heavy. The slimmer Decimo is less so and the Fermo is much heavier. If you need the Capless function then you don't have much choice. If you don't like the current placement of the clip on a Vanishing Point then consider a vintage version. The Capless was introduced in 1963 and has undergone several changes in the styling as well as materials. I prefer the 1965 model myself.

 

17) You really can't go wrong with any of these pens. They are all very similar. If you want the finest line then I would go for the Sailor or Platinum EF. However, you might not like the feel if you have a heavy hand and write with a high angle. If so, then you should consider a fine or even a medium. If you have a heavy hand, the it will come down to a tradeoff of smoothness versus line width.

 

18) The best thing is to try all three (or four) and see which ones you like. That really is the best way. If you cannot and need to figure out linewidths, you could buy a Sailor or Platinum deskpen. These are $15-20 and have EF nibs. If you like those then you can go with EF in one of the above pens. If you find them too scratchy then you may have to get a wider nib and sacrifice the fine line.

 

19) If you buy any of the above, I would recommend getting it from nibs.com. They sell all three lines and they will tune the nib before shipping. This helps you to get something that actually works when it arrives.

 

 

As for my 'personal' recommendation, buy a Nakaya. :roflmho:

 

Otherwise, my standard recommendation is a red band Parker 51 or first generation Omas Extra Lucens.

 

 

Wow, magnificent answer.

[XiaoMG]

My kneejerk reaction is to recommend the Sailor Profit Standard because it has the stiffest nib (and to me, the difference is not that subtle as my Pilot nibs are very squishy/springy in comparison). The 3776 nib is OK but I am not a big fan of the body it's plugged into. I have thought a bit about having it transplanted into a nicer pen. The Custom 74 is just going to be too soft if you really want a nail. The Capless will also have a bit of squishiness to writing.

 

Of all the above that I own and have tried, the smoothest nib I've come across was from a Capless, and the scratchiest (despite good alignment) was a Sailor. It is a game of roulette if you don't have the option of trying them in-store.

 

Why not consider saving some money and getting a steel-nibbed Pilot Lucina or something similar? Of the four options, the Sailor is probably the one you want.

[ajha1970]

How different 1911 is from PG and Sapporo in writting and nib durability?

[marcomillions]

I have--and use regularly--3 of the 4 pens you're interested in: I have 2 VPs (one "standard," with an F nib; one "stealth" matte black, with an EF nib), a Sailor 1911 Pro Gear Reala with an F nib, and a Platinum 3776 Century with an SF nib. I love all 4 pens, and it is a pleasure to write with any of them. I use mainly black or blue-black inks.

 

For finest line, the VP EF competes with the Platinum SF. (Yes, I know the SF is supposed to be somewhere between F and M, but mine turned out to be finer than, say, my Sailor F.) The F-nibbed VP, in comparison, seems like a "wet" pen, though it never seemed to before I acquired the other pens.

 

None of the pens is springy. The Platinum is perhaps the nib with which I can write fastest. As a very fine line, it is also very frugal with ink. By contrast, I seem to have to fill the VP with the F nib far more frequently than the others.

 

All of the pens do well on a fairly wide range of papers. The Sailor and the Platinum have sometimes gotten unhappy with certain cheap papers, but that hasn't been a problem.

 

I think I like the look of the letters I make with the Sailor best of the pens, though that may also be a function of the ink I regularly use in it: the Sailor nano-particle blue-black, Sei-boku. It shades beautifully, and the Sailor nib, even though an F, shows off this shading well.

 

The convenience of the VPs, being capless, cannot be matched. The lines their nibs turn out are excellent, too. I don't think you lose any nib quality (except in comparison to specialized nibs) by going VP.

 

For all the convenience of the VPs, and though I also agree with criticisms of its pedestrian design, the pen I go to most frequently of the four is the Platinum. Its line is not just fine but has some character; it is the fastest writer; it can write longer on a refill.

 

But then, as everyone will tell you, in the end, it's a matter of taste--of your taste, and aspects I like about specific pens may strike you differently than they did me. It's all very well to say: "Try them out before buying." That's rarely completely possible.

 

I'd say: "Read what the posters have to say. If you're already leaning toward one pen, go with it unless the posters say things that turn you against it. Or, if something a poster says that you didn't know about one of the pens suddenly makes it attractive, go with it." I'm thinking here about what will make you satisfied with the pen you buy ultimately.

 

Or, there's always the final piece of advice: "You know, if you don't let your right hand know what your left hand is doing in too much detail, you could probably acquire all four pens in the course of a year." Then your only problem will be: "Which pen do I use now?"

 

Have fun.

 

Marc

[Laura N]

I would recommend the 1911M. A fine nib should be fine enough. The ink capacity is sufficient with the converter but you can also get cartridges.

 

I'd also recommend going through Nibs.com. I have no affiliation and don't get any special consideration for saying this, etc. But they can adjust the nib for your parameters, which should be worth it since you are very specific.

[raging.dragon]

Firmness is affected by both the material used and the thickness and shape of the nib. All else being equal (and it never is) a Steel nib will be firmer than any Gold nib, and the less Gold there is in a Gold nib the firmer it will be (14K would be stiffer than 18K).

[raging.dragon]

How different 1911 is from PG and Sapporo in writting and nib durability?

 

The 1911 and Pro Gear come in the same sizes and in each size use the same nibs. The only difference is the shape of the body. I'm not certain about the Sapporo.

[Mickey]

Firmness is affected by both the material used and the thickness and shape of the nib. All else being equal (and it never is) a Steel nib will be firmer than any Gold nib, and the less Gold there is in a Gold nib the firmer it will be (14K would be stiffer than 18K).

 

But all else is seldom equal. Some steel alloys are inherently more flexible than most gold alloys. The steel nibs for my Pelikan 120 are more flexible than most of my gold nibs, whether 14K or 18K. My Duofold Centennial is an absolute nail (18K), but still a pleasure to use. My Aurora 88 (modern, 14K) is nearly as rigid. Most of my dip pen nibs, every one of which is steel, are vastly more flexible than any gold nib I've tried, which has included vintage wet noodles. (FWIW, one of the most flexible FPs I've tried had a steel nib.) It's more about nib geometry and manufacture than alloy, though obviously some alloys are more conducive to flexibility than others. Even 14K gold content does not guarantee superior flex potential, as not all 14K alloys are created equal, and don't forget tempering and annealing...Oi!

Edited October 27, 2012 by Mickey

[raging.dragon]

Firmness is affected by both the material used and the thickness and shape of the nib. All else being equal (and it never is) a Steel nib will be firmer than any Gold nib, and the less Gold there is in a Gold nib the firmer it will be (14K would be stiffer than 18K).

 

But all else is seldom equal. Some steel alloys are inherently more flexible than most gold alloys. The steel nibs for my Pelikan 120 are more flexible than most of my gold nibs, whether 14K or 18K. My Duofold Centennial is an absolute nail (18K), but still a pleasure to use. My Aurora 88 (modern, 14K) is nearly as rigid. Most of my dip pen nibs, every one of which is steel, are vastly more flexible than any gold nib I've tried, which has included vintage wet noodles. (FWIW, one of the most flexible FPs I've tried had a steel nib.) It's more about nib geometry and manufacture than alloy, though obviously some alloys are more conducive to flexibility than others. Even 14K gold content does not guarantee superior flex potential, as not all 14K alloys are created equal, and don't forget tempering and annealing...

 

Agreed.

 

In the end the cheapest, easiest and most accurate way to judge a particular nib, is to buy or borrow the pen and write with it.

[lemanfan]

How different 1911 is from PG and Sapporo in writting and nib durability?

 

The 1911 and Pro Gear come in the same sizes and in each size use the same nibs. The only difference is the shape of the body. I'm not certain about the Sapporo.

 

Isn't the pro gear usually two tone while the (full size) 1911 is mono tone?

[Mickey]

Firmness is affected by both the material used and the thickness and shape of the nib. All else being equal (and it never is) a Steel nib will be firmer than any Gold nib, and the less Gold there is in a Gold nib the firmer it will be (14K would be stiffer than 18K).

 

But all else is seldom equal. Some steel alloys are inherently more flexible than most gold alloys. The steel nibs for my Pelikan 120 are more flexible than most of my gold nibs, whether 14K or 18K. My Duofold Centennial is an absolute nail (18K), but still a pleasure to use. My Aurora 88 (modern, 14K) is nearly as rigid. Most of my dip pen nibs, every one of which is steel, are vastly more flexible than any gold nib I've tried, which has included vintage wet noodles. (FWIW, one of the most flexible FPs I've tried had a steel nib.) It's more about nib geometry and manufacture than alloy, though obviously some alloys are more conducive to flexibility than others. Even 14K gold content does not guarantee superior flex potential, as not all 14K alloys are created equal, and don't forget tempering and annealing...

 

Agreed.

 

In the end the cheapest, easiest and most accurate way to judge a particular nib, is to buy or borrow the pen and write with it.

 

Absolutely.

 

One man's flex is another man's nail. Most people consider the Nikko G to be pretty flexible. For me, it's one of the stiffest nibs I routinely use. There is not substitute for getting the pen into your own hands.

[Au79]

Thank you for all the good replies! Right now, I'm deciding on the Sailor 1911 mid sized EF vs. the Pilot Custom 74 F (EF is not available unfortunately). Since I write Kanji and cursive on college ruled paper, would I have an issue with the Custom 74's Fine nib? I do not like my lines to be too broad, and look for accuracy in my writing. I use a Papermate Write Bros Fine Point, which is a pretty nice. I also used to use a disposable white plastic 0.7mm ballpoint pen. It looked like this: http://content.etilize.com/images/500/1011766251.jpg except that the red part on the top of the pen and where the point is were black colored. Instead of saying AlphaBasic Skillcraft, it said 0.7mm. It might've been a Bic, but I'm not sure. Do you guys know which pen model it might have been? It would quite nice.

 

Anyway, I've written with a Pelikan m200 F before, and I thought it was too wide for my tastes. I really like the Sailor 1911 mid sized because of the EF nib, but I some say the Custom 74 isn't as picky about where the nib meets the paper and at what angle. I watched this video where a Custom 74 was being tested, and the nib was semi-flexed or was semi-spingy. I wish there were more stores to try out fountain pens, but I guess ballpoints reign supreme now...

 

Sailor 1911 mid sized EF vs. Sailor 1911 mid sized F vs. Pilot Custom 74 F

 

Does the classical black and gold look seem better or demonstrator?

 

I plan on buying from the Nibs site (which I have no affiliated with) which a couple people recommended. If 6 is the average flow, which number flow should I get? I don't want to be writing with something scratchy, but I also don't want to write with a flow that would cause my lines to become not accurate and thin. So basically, I want something precise but not scratchy, and smooth but not too wet.

 

Which pen among these would you guys recommend to me due to my preferences? Thanks!

 

Sailor 1911 mid sized EF:

- Stiffest nib

- Picky sweet spot

- Careful due to the finer nib

- Smaller ink reservoir, but negated by extra fine nib

 

Sailor 1911 mid sized F:

- Stiffest nib

- Picky sweet spot, but maybe more forgiving than with the EF nib

- Careful due to the finer nib, but not as careful as with the EF nib

- Smaller ink reservoir

 

Pilot Custom 74:

- Springier nib than the other two

- Not as picky sweet spot

- Can be scratchy and dry at first supposedly due to the feed

- May need adjustments before it works well

- Pen body is straight rather than elliptical, which is nice

[ink mixer]

I would take AltecGreen's advice and get the Sailor or Platinum Desk Pen. The line width and smoothness is amazing for a 20 dollar pen. If you start having problems with the nib, then it is only twenty dollars versus 200. You could also find out that the Xf line is too fine. Personally, I have three of the Platinum Desk Pens because the XF line is handy. Also, I think I have read that the Pilot Penmanship has a XF nib, but I have no direct experience with one. Thinking about your situation, for the expensive recommendation, I would go with the XF Vanishing Point just because the click mechanism is so useful to a student.

[Doug C]

Here some comments I based on what you wrote.

 

 

 

 

1) the width of a line on a piece of paper written with a fountain pen is a function of the nib width, set-up (flow, etc)., the ink and the paper. You cannot separate the various parameters. Nib width has a very large effect as does set-up. On the larger nib widths, the ink and paper can have a very strong effect.

 

2) Smoothness of a nib can be adjusted. I think what you meant was smoothness out of the box. The wider the nib width, the easier it is for the nib to be glassy smooth. You just have a larger surface area to work with. Conversely, on very fine nibs, at some point there is a limit to smoothness because you the area of the nib touching the paper is comparable to the inherent roughness of the paper. To use very fine nibs, you need a very light touch. You should not have to exert any pressure to write. I mean zero pressure.

 

3) If you try to write with a fountain pen the way you write currently with a mechanical pencil, you may encounter difficulties and may require special tuning of the nib.

 

4) Excluding the Vanishing Point from the discussion for now, the three remaining pens are nearly equivalent. They compete against each other in roughly the same price point. They really are equivalent and its more of a matter of taste. The Capless (aka Vanishing Point) is a totally different pen with different characteristics.

 

5) None of the nibs on any of the pens you mentioned are in any way flexible. The standard nibs on all three cannot even really be classified as being springy. Pilot does offer the 74 with soft nibs (SF, SM, etc.) but these are different than the 'stock' F, M, etc. nibs. All of the can be used for fast writing. Actually, you can write really fast with a flexible nib too. You ust have to be used to doing so and have a light touch.

 

6) If you really have to split hairs, then yes, the Sailor nibs are the stiffest.

 

7) For a given designation like fine, medium etc., a Japanese nib will be anywhere from a half to more than one size finer than their European counterpart. This is true for modern pens. For vintage pens, you have to more careful with generalizations like this.

 

8) Platinum and Sailor have slightly finer nibs than Pilot. This is a loose generalization and ignores the fact that even within a given company's line, there are variations. For example, the medium on Pilot Vanishing Point is not quite the same as the #5 medium nib on Custom 74 even though its from the same company. Sailor and Platinum offer EF and EEF nibs (SEF or UEF for Platinum and the Saibi Togi nib for Sailor). Note-Platinum (and hence Nakaya) changed their nib design recently to the one used on the 3776 Century. The reports suggest that the new Platinum nibs run a bit wider than the previous versions.

 

9) The more exotic Sailor nibs except the Saibi Togi all produce a much broader line.

 

10) There is not such thing as best anything. 14k was the most popular gold alloy used in fountain pens unless the country had rules where a higher gold content was required for te nib to be called gold (e.g. France). 14k has advantages if you are going to modify the nib for flexibility because 18k nibs are a bit too soft to get the best results. The Japanese companies all engaged in a 'carat' war in the 1970's. Sailor eventually won when they sold pens with 23K nib. Platinum went to 22k and Pilot I believe went to 21 k. Sailor still makes the higher 21k nibs whereas Platinum and Pilot abandoned the higher content gold nibs long ago. FYI-Danitrio uses a 24K gold nib on their Yokozuna series of pens.

 

11) Before you get confused about the 1911, see this post I made about the sizes of the 1911 which is really the Sailor Profit.

 

12) None of these pens have a huge ink capacity compared to other pens on the market. If you use cartridges, then the capacity is very close for all three. The Pilot does have the highest capacity converter and Sailor the smallest.

If you need a huge ink reservoir, then none of these are ideal choices.

 

 

13) All of these pens are durable. None feel too cheap but this is very subjective. If you want all of these attributes but want the best fit and finish then you should be looking at pens like a Nakaya, Hakase, or Tsuge instead.

 

14) I have some comments about the comments you dug up from the other thread.

 

- the 1911M is lighter than a 3776. The 1911M is 17g while the 3776 is 17.8. The Century version are even heavier. The full sized 1911 is heavier but then that pens is equivalent to a Platinum President or Pilot 742/743.

- Sailor nibs and feeds are not any better or worse than their counterparts from Platinum or Pilot.

 

- the 3776 is limited in colors in resin form, however the 3776 is used for many Platinum models including 6 celluloid versions and four wooden body versions.

 

- none of these pens post any better or worse than the others. They all do posts. FYI-I just took out all three pens and compared them.

 

 

15) The nibs from all three companies have different styles of grind thus they have very different feel. One is not better than another just different. Only you can decide which feel is best for you. In case you are wondering, I prefer Platinum/Nakaya nibs. Although I own the most Pilots followed by Platinum then Sailor. In use, I prefer Platinum, Sailor, then Pilot. (Pilots are more collectible and yes, I own a large number of pens).

 

16) The Vanishing Point is a totally different kind of pen. The main selling point is the ..well...mechanism. The current standard VP is fairly heavy. The slimmer Decimo is less so and the Fermo is much heavier. If you need the Capless function then you don't have much choice. If you don't like the current placement of the clip on a Vanishing Point then consider a vintage version. The Capless was introduced in 1963 and has undergone several changes in the styling as well as materials. I prefer the 1965 model myself.

 

17) You really can't go wrong with any of these pens. They are all very similar. If you want the finest line then I would go for the Sailor or Platinum EF. However, you might not like the feel if you have a heavy hand and write with a high angle. If so, then you should consider a fine or even a medium. If you have a heavy hand, the it will come down to a tradeoff of smoothness versus line width.

 

18) The best thing is to try all three (or four) and see which ones you like. That really is the best way. If you cannot and need to figure out linewidths, you could buy a Sailor or Platinum deskpen. These are $15-20 and have EF nibs. If you like those then you can go with EF in one of the above pens. If you find them too scratchy then you may have to get a wider nib and sacrifice the fine line.

 

19) If you buy any of the above, I would recommend getting it from nibs.com. They sell all three lines and they will tune the nib before shipping. This helps you to get something that actually works when it arrives.

 

 

As for my 'personal' recommendation, buy a Nakaya. :roflmho:

 

Otherwise, my standard recommendation is a red band Parker 51 or first generation Omas Extra Lucens.

 

 

Wow, magnificent answer.

+1 on Altecgreen's response. With the (very subjective) reply to which nib is best. I would rank them Sailor/Pilot/Nakaya-Platinum-which is why you should really find a way to put the nibs to the test. After all, that is the business end of the pen.