Cellulose nitrate vs. acetate

[omasfan]

I have a rather technical question. Rick Propas answered a thread about the material that Pelikans are made of. THis leads to my question:

 

The classical Celluloid is cellulose nitrate, cured with camphor. This is the stuff that they used with old fountain pens and that is still used mainly by Italian makers for their high-end pens (OMAS, Stipula, Montegrappa etc.). One can tell if it is celluloid if one takes a whiff at the cap. This organic plastic smells not like plastic but like camphor, an ethereal oil that somehow reminds me of menthol and cough drops. Celluoid is unsurpassed in colorfulness and iridescence by no other material.

 

Cellulose acetate is a much newer material, and as I understand it more durable than the classic celluloid. It smells of plastic and solvent when it is new (e.g. Visconti Opera Club is made of such a material.)

 

Now the critical question: Can the cellulose acetate rightly be called "Celluloid" or does this term only refer to the cellulose nitrate?

[RLTodd]

Celluloid was initially one of the trade names for cellulous nitrate.

 

FWIW. There is so little discipline with definitions today you would have to find out what each individual was spedifically referring to when they used the word.

[scogre]

I love this question! As a penmaker, I would love to work with real celluloid (cellulose nitrate), but availability just is not there. Oh, you can pick up the odd bits of the stuff on Ebay, but it's not a substance that is easily imported into the US in any quantity. That's because real celluloid is an explosive! Another common name for cellulose nitrate is Gun Cotton! It also has a very difficult manufacturing process that requires curing for a year or more. So about the only penmakers who use this material are those who have the facility to make it themselves.

 

The cellulose acetate, which we'll call fake celluloid, really is a nice attempt to capture most of the best qualities of real celluloid. It has a warmer feel than most of the acrylic materials available, and has very nice working properties (a nice density and consistency). It is easier and quicker to manufacture, and it is not an explosive! Time will tell, but it appears to be more stable over long periods of time.

 

So, I would say that the fake celluloid is enough like the real celluloid that if you want a reasonably priced pen made from celluloid, you may want to look past the "acetate" label! When I make a pen from the substance, I call it Celluloid Acetate, but some call it Modern Celluloid. It is still a wonderful material for a pen, but you're right, it's not the same thing!

 

Scott.

[tonyv]

The cellulose acetate, which we'll call fake celluloid, really is a nice attempt to capture most of the best qualities of real celluloid. It has a warmer feel than most of the acrylic materials available, and has very nice working properties (a nice density and consistency).

Is "vegetal resin" a form of celluloid or is it its own?

[andyslo]

I love the old "real celluloid," Honestly, I can tell a difference. The first time I noticed this was with my Vac's. Wow, warmer, stays warmer longer (that's my belief and I'm sticking to it) intangible but REAL difference. I later ordered a Columbus Yamazaki, again Wow. I am sure my Nakaya Koi is also of the old stuff, it just feels different and is my favorite substance for a pen...now there's a poll of interest huh? Well not from me.

 

I read in Ripleys' once when I was a kid that this guy in prison ordered a deck of cards that was made of Celluloid. He ground it up with his teeth and compressed it into block, then put a candle over it and BAM! Now that's one heck of a calling card. Well anyways that's what I read.

[RLTodd]

The cellulose acetate, which we'll call fake celluloid, really is a nice attempt to capture most of the best qualities of real celluloid.  It has a warmer feel than most of the acrylic materials available, and has very nice working properties (a nice density and consistency).

Is "vegetal resin" a form of celluloid or is it its own?

When we talk about cellulose nitrate and cellulose acetate we are talking about very specific materials.

 

As a side bar I recall reading the early billiard balls made of CN (which is very very very close to gun cotton for explosive use) had a nasty habit of going boom occasionally. CN based film has spontaneouly ignited and that which has not burned has in a large part decomposes to red powder. (The film preservation people start crying when the speak of the lost treasures of the CN film stock era.) CA was invented to solve the stability problems of CN.

 

When the subject of "vegetal resin" or "vegitable resin" or "precious resin" comes up, you need to specifically define it. Different manufactures, dealers, and collectors tend to play a little fast and loose with the terms. (Nothing personal against anyone it is just the way of the world) It is all a bit of a pickel and has led to some rather long threads here.

 

And, FWIW, as bad as CN was, it was considered a vast improvement over hard rubber (also called Vulcanite, Ebonite, overcooked & over sulfured natural rubber) for pens.

 

Fountain Pens are really much more intereting than the average person realizes.

 

editadd:

 

CN was an early material for pretty knife handles, among many other things. Uncolored CN was used and the knife collectors say these things are very unstable and deteriorate easily. The comment was made that the reason the pen collectors haven't seen this is that the colorants added to the CN in the old fountain pens have a "unknown and possibly" stabilizing effect on the deterioration of CN.

Edited January 8, 2007 by RLTodd

[Susanna]

(e.g. Visconti Opera Club is made of such a material.)

As far as I know, Visconti Opera Club are made with acrilic resin, not cellulose acetate.

 

Stipula Duetto - and the old Stipula 22 - were made of cellulose acetate.

[omasfan]

(e.g. Visconti Opera Club is made of such a material.)

As far as I know, Visconti Opera Club are made with acrilic resin, not cellulose acetate.

 

Stipula Duetto - and the old Stipula 22 - were made of cellulose acetate.

Interesting Susanna! The people at WorldLux even insisted that the pen was made of Celluloid. So they had been told by their Visconti representative. The Opera Club has a rather chemical smell. So I think you're right. But what the hell are other pens that use cellulose acetate? I am at my wit's end now. Give me some more examples for contemporary nitrate vs. acetate pens.

Edited January 8, 2007 by dupontfan

[zyg]

Hi

 

Some of Aurora pens are made of "Auroloide". What is this? Is this a kind of Celluloid or resin?

 

Thanks in advance for explanation.

Zyg

[Dillo]

Hi,

 

I have not handled an Aurora Auroloide pen for a long time so I can't say for certain. Acrylics smell like pungent chemicals and I, for one get dizzy and confused after getting a sniff of the plastic. That's why I like celluloid better, it has a certain smell to it that is not so strong.

 

Dillon

[humsin]

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But what the hell are other pens that use cellulose acetate? I am at my wit's end now. Give me some more examples for contemporary nitrate vs. acetate pens.

 

 

Pelikan Souveran

[Dillo]

Hi,

 

The Aurora Auroloid pens are definitely celluloid acetate. Omas celluloids are celluloid nitrate. Pelikans use a sleeve from celluloid acetate as well. I think Esterbrook pens were usually made from celluloid acetate.

 

Celluloid acetate should smell lightly sweet and not strong and pungent like acrylics. Celluloid nitrate has a sweet smell, but that is from the camphor. Both are quite nice materials. I like both a lot.

 

Dillon

[raging.dragon]

According to Lambrou's Fountain Pens of the World pp. 420 - 424 there are four different cellulosic plastics used in fountain pens:

 

Cellulose Nitrate, usually (but not always) mixed with Camphor as a plasticizer.

Cellulose Acetate

Cellulose Propionate

Cellulose Acetobutyrate

 

Perhaps only Cellulose Nitrate with Camphor is correcly called Celluloid; however, I suspect that at one time or another all of these materials have been sold as celluloid.

[raging.dragon]

<!--QuoteBegin-tonyv+Jan 7 2007, 09:09 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tonyv @ Jan 7 2007, 09:09 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-scogre+Jan 7 2007, 12:04 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(scogre @ Jan 7 2007, 12:04 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The cellulose acetate, which we'll call fake celluloid, really is a nice attempt to capture most of the best qualities of real celluloid. It has a warmer feel than most of the acrylic materials available, and has very nice working properties (a nice density and consistency).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Is "vegetal resin" a form of celluloid or is it its own? <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

When we talk about cellulose nitrate and cellulose acetate we are talking about very specific materials.

 

As a side bar I recall reading the early billiard balls made of CN (which is very very very close to gun cotton for explosive use) had a nasty habit of going boom occasionally. CN based film has spontaneouly ignited and that which has not burned has in a large part decomposes to red powder. (The film preservation people start crying when the speak of the lost treasures of the CN film stock era.) CA was invented to solve the stability problems of CN.

 

When the subject of "vegetal resin" or "vegitable resin" or "precious resin" comes up, you need to specifically define it. Different manufactures, dealers, and collectors tend to play a little fast and loose with the terms. (Nothing personal against anyone it is just the way of the world) It is all a bit of a pickel and has led to some rather long threads here.

 

And, FWIW, as bad as CN was, it was considered a vast improvement over hard rubber (also called Vulcanite, Ebonite, overcooked & over sulfured natural rubber) for pens.

 

Fountain Pens are really much more intereting than the average person realizes.

 

editadd:

 

CN was an early material for pretty knife handles, among many other things. Uncolored CN was used and the knife collectors say these things are very unstable and deteriorate easily. The comment was made that the reason the pen collectors haven't seen this is that the colorants added to the CN in the old fountain pens have a "unknown and possibly" stabilizing effect on the deterioration of CN.

 

Very few vintage pens were marketed as Celluloid in their day, instead manufacturers made up their own trade names: Radite, Permanite, etc.. So it seems possible that those pens were made from Cellulose Acetate or a mix of Cellulose Nitrate and Cellulose Acetate to increase durability. So long as Camphor was added it would still have the distinctive scent of Celluloid.

 

Oh, and technically Cellulose Nitrate isn't explosive. It's just highly flammable.

Edited August 17, 2012 by raging.dragon

[Pen2009]

My expectation from Celluloid pens is I should be able to smell a whiff of camphor, like the one I can smell from my Platinum celluloid pens.

Edited August 17, 2012 by Pen2009

[MarcShiman]

I know this is an old thread, but there are some misconceptions about Cellulose Nitrate and Cellulose Acetate that are worth clearing up.

 

Cellulose Nitrate was introduced in the 1850's, although it was only the 1870's when camphor was recognized to be a plasticizing agent. The product, which was branded "Celluloid" by the Celluloid Company of Newark NJ, was never explosive. It was highly flammable. Billiard balls never exploded. Ping pong balls, the sole remaining product today made from cellulose nitrate do not typically explode.

 

Another company was set up in competition with The Celluloid Company. Arlington Works also produced a version of celluloid once the patents expired. DuPont eventually bought Arlington Works, and produced Pryroxlin, which was, for all intents and purposes, celluloid. There were two other smaller celluloid producers, but those were the main two. Arlington Works was in Arlington NJ, a section of Kearny. NJ was the plastics capital of the world in the first half of the century (Bakelite was also made in NJ)

 

The first occurrence of adding Acetic Acid to cotton fibers instead of Nitric Acid (e.g. cellulose acetate) was in the 1870's. It first emerged as a product in the 1910's as far as I can tell. Its primary advantage was that it wasn't nearly as flammable. To give a sense of how bad Cellulose Nitrate was, there were something like 47 major fires in celluloid related manufacturers in NJ in a 45 year period. Eventually, The Celluloid Company was renamed Celanese (some series of mergers between a British firm, a Canadian firm, and The Celluloid Company), which is now Horscht Celanase. They set up a significant factory in Western Maryland to produce cellulose acetate.

 

I really tried to understand that if cellulose acetate had all the good properties of celluloid without the flammability, why wasn't it introduced into pens? The only logical explanation I've found is that it was too expensive. The film industry only switched from Celluloid to cellulose acetate in 1947 when Kodak started production of film. According to what I read, Kodak found a way to make it cheaply enough to make it competitive.

 

But by the time that cellulose acetate was affordable, there were injection moldable plastics. That significantly lowered the cost of pen manufacturing, and by then there wasn't a need for any material that was as labor intensive as a cotton-based plastic.

 

From what I understand, the means of making rod stock was the same between cellulose acetate and celluloid, so you shouldn't really be able to tell the difference by looking at it. Also, they haven't used natural camphor (came almost exclusively from Japan) since the 1930's, as a German company came up with a way to synthesize it, and I'm not certain the artificial stuff has the same smell. So I'm not certain that the italians are indeed using a nitrate-based product. As was mentioned here, people are loose and fast with the word now, its lost its meaning.

 

Last point - someone in this thread said "fountain pens are much more interesting...". When you really dig into how celluloid is made, how the patterns come to be, and then how it is formed into a pen barrel (only the most expensive pens could afford to take a blank or a rod and drill it out), you really get an appreciation of the craftsmanship that went into making a pen.

Edited December 13, 2015 by MarcShiman

[tinta]

Isn't Pelikan making some of its pens using cellulose acetate?

[tryphon]

I have researched this issue. What I found is that cellulose acetate should be called by its original name, which was Rhodoïd.

It will avoid confusion if we stick to: celluloid for cellulose nitrate pens and Rhodoïd for cellulose acetate pens.

[MarcShiman]

Actually, the early name for celluloid acetate that most people would know would be "rayon". It was initially an artificial silk, and a substitute for celluloid film.

[tryphon]

The form of acetate used on pens, as a ester resin, was introduced by Rhone-Poulenc of France and it was named Rhodöid. Many more names were adopted for different variants of cellulose acetate. According to my modest research, acetate used in pens should be called Rhodöid to avoid confusion with celluloid. (though my campaign may be a waste of time... )