Liberty's Elysium Is Not Waterproof!

[blopplop]

Well, I haven't read through all the posts in this thread, but I did run a test of my own. I took an index card that I wrote out some scripture verses on about a week ago and placed it in a cup of water, and the blue ink just slid right off the card into the water. Granted, not all of it. It left enough behind to still read what was written.

 

Then I took another card written with Bad Blue Heron and no ink at all came off the card. Nada, not one drop.

 

Clearly LE is not as "bulletproof" as the other Noodler's inks. I'm very disappointed and will be editing my review on the Gouletpens sight.

 

I'm sure glad you posted this because I would have found out the hard way. I need to start testing these inks. Maybe buying samples first.

 

Dave

[mhosea]

The video that Brian put out was interesting. Perhaps another problem with small batch properties (to an extent at least) as implied by mhosea's post. Brian's tests looked pretty solid. Certainly bleach had no effect. But water is our main concern around here.

 

If you don't care about forgery resistance, then this ink seems like it would be just another new ink that didn't turn out to be waterproof in the sense that you wanted. But there must already be medium-blue waterproof inks choose from if that's all you care about. Namiki Blue is great, just a bit subdued in the saturation department. Heck, I was pleasantly surprised by Chesterfield Sapphire (Diamine Sapphire Blue? or could it be one of the more purple Diamine colors?). On this note I've got that my wife wrote in Noodler's Blue with an XF nib in Noodler's Blue, an ISBN number that was partially lost from a water drop, I looked up the number again and wrote it in Chesterfield Sapphire and then later, as a test, tried to see whether I could read the original number after soaking off the excess Noodler's Blue. That just didn't work for the Noodler's Blue, but the Chesterfield Sapphire bled and then stayed, developing a slightly fuzzy appearance. With a splash rather than a rinse it might have been a little worse. But then there's Luxury Blue, KTC, Baystate Blue (which can be diluted), Polar Blue. What other medium-blue inks (not blue-black) are waterproof? Surely I haven't managed to find them all already.

 

Me, I like the color of this ink, and I like that I can sign checks with it. Maybe I don't want to address the envelope with it. My biggest complaint with it is that it isn't as lubricated as I would like.

Edited June 1, 2012 by mhosea

[blopplop]

Thanks for the objective review Tony. You saved me some money. Bulletproof is waterproof to me (a la Noodler's Black) and not water resistant.

 

Agreed! None of my other bulletproof inks performed this badly when exposed to water.

 

Dave

[SamCapote]

Tony, I have had some offline time to play more with this ink, and I agree this should NOT be called waterproof, and especially not called bulletproof or eternal. The best you can say is that LE is partially water resistant.

It is not that Noodler's has any shortage of colorful BP/Eternal/waterproof inks which include: Luxury Blue, Texas Blue Bonnet, #41 Brown, Black, Fox Red, Kung Te-Cheng, La Reine Mauve, Warden series, Polar series (including blue), Hunter Green, X-Feather Black, Prime of the Commons, Pendemonium inks. Russian series, Singapore series, UK series, & a few others. Then a whole bunch more that are near-bulletproof, and strongly water resistant.

[GouletPens]

Hey everyone, thanks for being so patient. I saw Tony's thread the night he posted it but FPN went down before I could reply. I just saw about an hour ago that it came back up, but I've had to check on my phone as we literally just closed on our new house on Wed. and I've been without internet the last couple of days (except on my phone). We're moving tomorrow (26' Peske truck and everything!) and with selling our old house, running our business, etc, there's a lot on our plate!

 

I never intended to give any false impression of the ink, I hope everyone understands that. I agree with many of the points about the ink's characteristics, and I tried to be unbiased and accurately portray the ink's limitations in the video that I made the day we released it for sale (below). We worked with Nathan for a while on this ink to try to get the most vibrant blue ink with the most permanent characteristics that we could (while also still maintaining a $12.50 retail price) and the result was Liberty's Elysium. We aren't in some kind of big ink conspiracy or anything, nor are we trying to intentionally mislead anyone just to sell a few more bottles of ink! Noodler's inks of other colors use different dyes that are inherently more resistant to water and smearing in some cases, but this particular shade of blue was a challenge for Nathan to create with permanence. When I'd spoken with him on the phone about this ink before we released it, he gave me guidance about classifying the ink, and I will talk to him about whether we should call it partially-bulletproof or anything different than we currently have it classified. Over the last several years Nathan has been pushing the envelope of ink permanence and some of the terms he's used have perhaps shifted meaning as he's developed new inks, and he never really nailed down strict definitions for bulletproof, eternal, etc. We found this out when we worked with him to create the (only) Noodler's ink properties chart ever attempted. Nathan is still a one-man show and spends all of his time making ink, designing pens, and the like (with no staff), so I can very easily see how definitions like these can slip through the cracks with him, as I probably am more familiar with his insanely busy schedule than most. I'll work with him on trying to nail down some more strict definitions of these ink definitions. Please understand this might take a little time as Nathan has been off this week (and inaccessible) and Rachel and I personally are taking off most of next week because of our move.

 

The most important thing to keep in perspective is that there hasn't been a vibrant blue like this with the permanence that it has...yes, it's not 100% waterproof, and I never intended to imply that it was (I even talked about the fact part of the ink washed with water in my video, at 5:25), but if the ink gets wet, there is plenty of ink still left behind to see what you wrote, which is more than you can say for most blues this shade. There are some other inks like Kon-Peki that have pretty decent water resistance (though in my video you can see I didn't find it to resist water as well as LE does, at 9:48), but for those who've been using blue inks for a while you know that blues in this particular shade have always been weak when it comes to UV-resistance and water resistance. Some inks like Baystate Blue are very water resistant, but will fade quickly in sunlight, others will fare better but will wash much easier (like PR American Blue at 9:35 or Pilot Iroshizuku Tsuyu-Kusa at 9:57). It's surprisingly hard to find a blue that 'has it all': color vibrancy, water resistance, fade resistance...with other important factors like flow, dry time, cost, etc to consider as well.

 

I think the very idea of a blue that had all this made FPN run WILD. Rachel and I never even posted a thread about the ink, one was started by a non-affiliated FPN member after we just mentioned a very small hint at an ink with no specific characteristics in our newsletter, and FPN just lit up like wildfire. With so much hype (which we did our best not to exacerbate), it's not surprising to that some will be disappointed. But please understand, designing an ink with all of the properties that Liberty's Elysium has was no small feat. I don't even understand most of the chemistry involved in making inks (and Nathan keeps that all as a closely guarded secret, even from me), but I do know that blues are inherently much weaker dyes than blacks and blue blacks, which is exactly why you see so few true blues with characteristics of permanency. If you look at Liberty's Elysium's properties and compare it to other inks around (and not to what hype or speculation the ink may have had before we announced what it was), I do believe this is one of if not the best vibrant blue inks around when all factors are considered (of course, I'm very, very biased). Kon-Peki is a nice ink and one of my favorites in fact, but it's 4.5 times more expensive than LE. Luxury Blue is more permanent but it is more than three times the price of LE and is chalky and darker than LE. Noodler's Blue and Blue Eel are close to Liberty's Elysium and rightfully so, they were what inspired us to do LE. We wanted basically that color but with more permanence, while keeping the cost of the ink at $12.50/3-ounce bottle. Without getting into VERY expensive chemicals or killing the vibrancy of the color, Liberty's Elysium was what Nathan assured to us as "the most vibrant permanent blue ink he could make". And if Nathan says that's the best he can do, then I believe him and despite even my own desires of having a completely and 100% waterproof vibrant blue ink, I have to accept that it just wasn't possible in this case. That said, I've used a LOT of different inks and I can honestly say that I'm not disappointed with Liberty's Elysium. I can talk to Nathan about what options we might have in the future going with more expensive dye components, and then perhaps we might be able to see some other characteristics (more similar to what you see with more expensive inks like Kung Te-Cheng and Luxury Blue). But for an ink that was inspired by Patrick Henry, Nathan Hale, and Mary Dyer, Nathan felt it imperative to keep the ink at a low cost.

 

The last thing I want to say is that I'm amazed that there's been so little fuss about the label! Honestly, when Rachel and I first saw Nathan's design for the label we almost wanted him to change it because we thought for sure it would get everybody all riled up. That's why I put the label content so heavy at the front of the video, to try to 'state our case' for why it was all on there! I think this thread is a testament to the fact that true fountain pen fans really do care about the ink first, which is actually very encouraging for me to see. I do want to express a heartfelt apology for anyone who feels misled about the way we have promoted this ink, if you feel it was unfair at all then please shoot me an email or PM and I'm happy to work with you to make it right.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7wDRicGxvo

[SamCapote]

I think it has been well established if you look at the list of ink reviews what the terms bulletproof, eternal, waterproof, near-bulletproof, partially waterproof mean, and with many examples to illustrate them. The focus when it comes down to it is almost always going to be on ink color/properties first and foremost, with the label being either mundanely irrelevant (brand name & color), or some degree of artistic expression (which Noodler's is known for).

 

The problem is that you announced it as a bulletproof, true blue ink in this post. If you had said what it accurately is..."partially waterproof" then people would have not have felt let down. The truth about this ink color is that it is nothing special, and does not stand out on the scale of blue ink which we were expecting.

 

IMHO, you need to remove all references to it being bulletproof from your website. It's not even as water resistant as Swisher's "Swish Mix," let alone as much as their waterproof inks were. If Nathan misrepresented this feature to you, I would strongly recommend he reformulate it and reissue as a new version label, and people receive replacement bottles. People will understand and be supportive. Being openly misled is not right.

 

Nearly the same scenario happened when Binder came out with Everflo True Blue which was initially represented to be a Penman Sapphire clone, and then it turned out that the prototype they had been provided was not the same that was used for production.

 

Nathan knows what the distinctions mean, and has this entire page and categorization PDF listing them all on his website here:

 

http://noodlersink.c...ink-properties/

 

 

.

Edited June 1, 2012 by SamCapote

[KCat]

The video that Brian put out was interesting. Perhaps another problem with small batch properties (to an extent at least) as implied by mhosea's post. Brian's tests looked pretty solid. Certainly bleach had no effect. But water is our main concern around here.

 

If you don't care about forgery resistance, then this ink seems like it would be just another new ink that didn't turn out to be waterproof in the sense that you wanted. But there must already be medium-blue waterproof inks choose from if that's all you care about. Namiki Blue is great, just a bit subdued in the saturation department. Heck, I was pleasantly surprised by Chesterfield Sapphire (Diamine Sapphire Blue? or could it be one of the more purple Diamine colors?). On this note I've got that my wife wrote in Noodler's Blue with an XF nib in Noodler's Blue, an ISBN number that was partially lost from a water drop, I looked up the number again and wrote it in Chesterfield Sapphire and then later, as a test, tried to see whether I could read the original number after soaking off the excess Noodler's Blue. That just didn't work for the Noodler's Blue, but the Chesterfield Sapphire bled and then stayed, developing a slightly fuzzy appearance. With a splash rather than a rinse it might have been a little worse. But then there's Luxury Blue, KTC, Baystate Blue (which can be diluted), Polar Blue. What other medium-blue inks (not blue-black) are waterproof? Surely I haven't managed to find them all already.

 

Me, I like the color of this ink, and I like that I can sign checks with it. Maybe I don't want to address the envelope with it. My biggest complaint with it is that it isn't as lubricated as I would like.

 

I like Eel Blue so for me, if this is no better than Eel, then it's a wash. Although shading would be nice so I'll try a sample and see what I think about that aspect of the ink. If I like the slight shading I hear about, then I'll consider switching or adding (I like Eel's lubrication). I haven't seen any other blues mentioned in the "water resistent" category that interest me at all. I got tired of Legal Lapis/Luxury Blue ages ago. I've not liked what I've read about the other blues nor do I care for the shades anyway. So it would be a toss-up between Eel and LE. It is odd to me that it seems so hard to make a true blue that is bulletproof/waterproof. The others are so green/flat looking.

[blopplop]

I think it has been well established if you look at the list of ink reviews what the terms bulletproof, eternal, waterproof, near-bulletproof, partially waterproof with many examples to illustrate them. The focus when it comes down to it is almost always going to be on ink color/properties first and foremost, with the label being either mundanely irrelevant (brand name & color), or some degree of artistic expression (which Noodler's is known for).

 

The problem is that you announced it as a bulletproof, true blue ink in this post. If you had said what it accurately is..."partially waterproof" then people would have not have felt let down. The truth about this ink color is that it is nothing special, and does not stand out on the scale of blue ink which we were expecting.

 

While no one is more of a Gouletpen's cheer leader than me, I have to agree whole-heartily with SC's assessment here. This is not what I expected out of a BP ink. I would just call it something else, but not BP.

 

Dave

 

P.S. Yes a reissue would be nice. Same color with true BP qualities.

Edited June 1, 2012 by blopplop

[threeamigos]

I think it has been well established if you look at the list of ink reviews what the terms bulletproof, eternal, waterproof, near-bulletproof, partially waterproof mean, and with many examples to illustrate them. The focus when it comes down to it is almost always going to be on ink color/properties first and foremost, with the label being either mundanely irrelevant (brand name & color), or some degree of artistic expression (which Noodler's is known for).

 

The problem is that you announced it as a bulletproof, true blue ink in this post. If you had said what it accurately is..."partially waterproof" then people would have not have felt let down. The truth about this ink color is that it is nothing special, and does not stand out on the scale of blue ink which we were expecting.

 

IMHO, you need to remove all references to it being bulletproof from your website. It's not even as water resistant as Swisher's "Swish Mix," let alone as much as their waterproof inks were. If Nathan misrepresented this feature to you, I would strongly recommend he reformulate it and reissue as a new version label, and people receive replacement bottles. People will understand and be supportive. Being openly misled is not right.

 

Nearly the same scenario happened when Binder came out with Everflo True Blue which was initially represented to be a Penman Sapphire clone, and then it turned out that the prototype they had been provided was not the same that was used for production.

 

Nathan knows what the distinctions mean, and has this entire page and categorization PDF listing them all on his website here:

 

http://noodlersink.c...ink-properties/

 

 

.

 

 

Well said!

 

 

[KCat]

I think it has been well established if you look at the list of ink reviews what the terms bulletproof, eternal, waterproof, near-bulletproof, partially waterproof with many examples to illustrate them. The focus when it comes down to it is almost always going to be on ink color/properties first and foremost, with the label being either mundanely irrelevant (brand name & color), or some degree of artistic expression (which Noodler's is known for).

 

The problem is that you announced it as a bulletproof, true blue ink in this post. If you had said what it accurately is..."partially waterproof" then people would have not have felt let down. The truth about this ink color is that it is nothing special, and does not stand out on the scale of blue ink which we were expecting.

 

IMHO, you need to remove all references to it being bulletproof from your website. It's not even as water resistant as Swisher's "Swish Mix," let alone their waterproof inks were. If Nathan misrepresented this feature to you, I would strongly recommend he reformulate it and reissue as a new version label, and people receive replacement bottles.

 

He knows what the distinctions mean, and has this entire page and categorization PDF listing them all on his website here:

 

http://noodlersink.com/noodlers-ink-properties/

 

We can argue over what bulletproof means but to me it has always meant that it can't be completely erased. When people ask about mixing "ruining the bulletproof properties" of an ink, I always say, "no" with caveats because in my mind, mixing a BP ink with a non-BP does not ruin those properties in most cases. It merely dilutes the BP ink. You will get a lighter line left behind, but you'll still have a line. In essence then, to me, if an ink leaves a line on the page that can't be washed out with water, bleach, UV, then it is bulletproof whether it's a dark line or a light line. Now, I agree that ideally, you'd have something like Violet Vote that leaves the same thing on the page that it started with. But the point is to be safe from removal.

 

I am disappointed. But I'm also not going to freak out and start slamming anyone for misleading us as if it was an intentional deception. The Goulets know their customers. They're going to know we're all AR as hell and going to test our new inks under water and under a microscope if we can.

[Ghost Plane]

Label? There was a label? :blink: :embarrassed_smile:

[KCat]

I think it has been well established if you look at the list of ink reviews what the terms bulletproof, eternal, waterproof, near-bulletproof, partially waterproof with many examples to illustrate them. The focus when it comes down to it is almost always going to be on ink color/properties first and foremost, with the label being either mundanely irrelevant (brand name & color), or some degree of artistic expression (which Noodler's is known for).

 

The problem is that you announced it as a bulletproof, true blue ink in this post. If you had said what it accurately is..."partially waterproof" then people would have not have felt let down. The truth about this ink color is that it is nothing special, and does not stand out on the scale of blue ink which we were expecting.

 

While no one is more of a Gouletpen's cheer leader than me, I have to agree whole-heartily with SC's assessment here. This is not what I expected out of a BP ink. I would just call it something else, but not BP.

 

Dave

 

P.S. Yes a reissue would be nice. Same color with true BP qualities.

 

Did you or did you not read Brian's post?

 

I'm assuming not so:

 

Without getting into VERY expensive chemicals or killing the vibrancy of the color, Liberty's Elysium was what Nathan assured to us as "the most vibrant permanent blue ink he could make". And if Nathan says that's the best he can do, then I believe him and despite even my own desires of having a completely and 100% waterproof vibrant blue ink, I have to accept that it just wasn't possible in this case. ... I can talk to Nathan about what options we might have in the future going with more expensive dye components, and then perhaps we might be able to see some other characteristics (more similar to what you see with more expensive inks like Kung Te-Cheng and Luxury Blue).

 

You may want to read the part about the Goulets wanting to keep the price point reasonable.

[mhosea]

I like Eel Blue so for me, if this is no better than Eel, then it's a wash.

 

I'm repeating myself, but IMO, the color is better, the lubrication worse. IMO, the water resistance is a lot better in practical terms, but the nature of it includes a washable part that behaves like an ink with no water resistance at all. In the tests that I have done, water spills made a mess but did not render anything illegible, which I can't say for my experience with Noodler's Blue. It matters to me, but it may not be enough additional water resistance to matter to you.

 

Rightly or wrongly, I thought the lesser lubrication as witnessed by poorer performance in one of my usually best-performing pens was worth the loss of a star, so I modified my review on the GPC site. I also removed reference to "bulletproof" so as not to irritate anyone who has strong feelings that this is supposed to mean, among other things, impervious to water.

[Ad_Astra]

So it's really more...partially-bulletproof? That doesn't seem too awful, mostly a reclassification issue.

 

I'm a big fan of upgrading classifications instead of the other way around. Surprises tend to work better than possible disappointment.

[krz]

I've been able to play with L.E. for about a week now. I saw that it would lift easily. So I'd have to agree; not fully bulletproof.

 

I still think L.E. is a lovely shade of blue that I will use, but I can't use it like I'd wanted to; drawing line work and applying a light wash over it.

 

So bulletproof, no. Nice vibrant blue ink, yes!

[MJ Vesuvius]

Terms like "Eternal" and "Bulletproof" are, for me, more confusing than ever. Might I suggest:

 

– Water Resistant

 

– Waterproof

 

– Tamper Resistant

 

– Tamperproof

 

– UV Resistant

 

– UV Proof

 

Mix and match 'em on the label. I'd be happy to lose a bit of art and/or "messaging" in favor of clear description of properties.

 

– MJ

 

 

[Ghost Plane]

Before people forget... THANK YOU, Brian and Rachel Goulet, for giving us a new Noodler's blue ink. :notworthy1: It might not suit all of us, but you did your best and most of us appreciate it. :thumbup:

[Jimmy James]

As the unaffiliated user who caused the fuss, I also regret any hype I caused that is based on inaccuracy. I wrote the first review because I live 2 hours away from Goulet HQ and get mail from that area fast. I ordered at general availability like everyone else. I'm a 100% customer of the Goulets.

 

I think Brian has fully explained things. I agree a reformulation of property descriptions is in order. Nathan seems to have changed his personal meaning of at least some terms after the laser attack on Bulletproof Black. I think the community needs to take the lead in this effort, though. We need a cross brand independent type scale. It seems to me we should discuss this and come up with something sensible.

 

I am glad but not surprised Brian will make things right. I am completely satisfied but understand if others are not. I again apologize if my actions resulted in disappointment.

[melissa59]

I am completely satisfied but understand if others are not. I again apologize if my actions resulted in disappointment.

 

I found your review to be quite revealing. While I don't have this ink, I think your photos perfectly showed how this ink works and I don't think anyone would be disappointed based on your review.

 

You showed this to be a gorgeous blue, even to someone like me that does not care for blues.

 

You showed how the ink reacts in water. Yes, the blue smears. That is obvious from the large amount of color that come off during the water wash. A little bit of water would make a blurry mess.

 

But after the wash, the missive was still readable. For checks, documents and other papers that need to stand the test of time and floods, this ink would work. Granted, a journal might need a thorough washing before the writing could be read, but it still beats a journal whose writing disappears off the page, never to be read again.

 

In other words, I don't think you have ANYTHING to apologize for.

[Phormio]

 

I never intended to give any false impression of the ink, I hope everyone understands that.

 

Dear Goulet's,

 

Thank you for putting the effort in with Nathan to make this ink. I've watched the video, seen the reviews and I want some.

 

OK, so it's not 100% bulletproof. Easy fix is just to re-lable and say semi-bulletproof.

 

As for FPN, its good that you work so hard to please your customers and maintain your relationship with us, but really, keep in mind some of the people around here are cry babies and will never be 100% happy.So don't suck it up too much!!

 

Thanks again for Liberty's Elysium and good luck with the move - I'm doing the same thing myself this week.

 

P.