Liberty's Elysium Is Not Waterproof!

[mhosea]

Would it be better if the label had the entire "water-resistant, UV resistant and bleach resistant"? Seems a little long-winded to me.

 

There's not a category (i.e. "bulletproof" "eternal" etc.) printed on my L.E. labels. Some Noodler's inks have the categories printed on them, others do not.

 

I also tested this with bleach when forming my earlier opinion, and compared to other bulletproofs. My bleach test after rinsing with water is to make a small puddle with 5-6 drops of household Clorox Bleach and let it sit there for about a minute. I don't rub the paper away with the q-tip because I want to just see the effect of bleach alone. Suffice it to say that it does not hold up. I could show images of my test, but I'm afraid I already made KCat's head explode. I know she secretly missed me the last few days when FPN was down.

 

 

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My assessment of this ink's permanence is based on the part that is bonded to the paper, accepting that there is a washable part that has virtually no durability at all. Whether that interpretation is supposed to be possible does not interest me because I don't believe industry standard terms and marketing terms used by one manufacturer are the same sorts of thing.

 

Anyway, I was concerned by your vaguely reported results with bleach, so I took out my test paper written last Tuesday, written in Noodler's LE and Blue to compare water resistance. The paper had been soaked and rinsed already, revealing the bonded part of the ink. I tried dribbling a few drops of bleach on it. Nothing after minutes. So I partially immersed the paper in bleach so that parts of the writing would be immersed and other parts moistened and exposed to air. After several minutes (more than 10), I removed it and rinsed gently with water. It is now drying. As I watched it soak, the LE was hardly changed at all over the first several minutes. The remnants of Noodler's Blue disappeared, though, and the labels in Bad Belted Kingfisher faded but were still quite legible. After rinsing, the LE remnant seemed suddenly to have faded dramatically, but it is still legible. I will let the paper dry and then post a photo later. I do think Bad Belted Kingfisher is more bleach resistant, but I also think it is reasonable to claim that Noodler's Liberty's Elysium is bleach resistant.

[Phormio]

Okay let's take a step back here and breathe.... it's just ink, folks! The passion fountain pen enthusiasts have for ink is a double-edged sword. I love it and hate it sometimes! LOL.

 

That being said, I agree with much of what is being said here, and I do encourage everyone to read Brian's response in reply #45. He does address much of what is being said here, including the possibility of a reformulation (LE was as vibrant a blue as possible, and as durable as possible, without costing an incredible amount - to reformulate it to be completely BP would sacrifice other qualities, such as the vibrant color or the cost, so please keep all that in mind in your arguments about a reformulation!). Luxury Blue is more than 3x the price, and the old Swishmix inks were also more costly. Blue dyes are incredibly challenging to be durable. I'm sure Nathan will keep on innovating and improving, but let's be realistic about what can and cannot be done.

 

A lot of this centers around everyone's understanding of Nathan's marketing terms of 'bulletproof' or 'eternal'. I spent hours and hours creating the Noodler's PDF document that was reviewed by Nathan, who also provided me via phone with the definitions of the terms at the top, and so I feel pretty confident about the labels, but I am certainly open to redefining them if necessary. I was reminded of our interview with Nathan during our 10/12/11 Write Time at 9 Broadcast. You can access it through our podcast on iTunes or through our blog archives. Just before 14 minutes in, I ask him about his definitions for bulletproof and eternal, and he does not address waterproofness directly, but more durability of the ink against bleaches, oven cleaners, and other tools of the forger.

 

The most important thing here is that the LE ink is not removed from the page. Other blue inks will wash away in their entirety, leaving nothing but a blank white page or a pale smear. This ink is still legible. The color is not the same, granted, but it is legible and will last on the paper. It does resist many other chemical attempts to alter it. Just as with other fully bulletproof inks that change color when certain chemicals are applied, that is the point - it shows proof that it was tampered with. So I think, I believe, it is accurately labeled as bulletproof according to Nathan's intention. In the interview, he describes bulletproof as a sliding scale (over time, its definition has evolved into being this sort of super ink that is completely resistant to everything). Not all bulletproof inks are created equal. Again, this has to do with the dye components. Black is of course the most durable, blue is not.

 

I agree, it is not fully waterproof in that some of the color washes away. But it is certainly quite water-resistant, more so than many other blues of this shade out there. I feel it holds up pretty darn well. We actually used this color (in a blue Pilot Custom 74) to sign all of our mortgage paperwork last week. We felt confident enough personally to use this for legal documents. It just felt a little more interesting than using Noodler's Black (and showed up more distinctly on photocopies).

 

Sigh. Anyways. I feel like I'm talking in circles. I didn't even want to address this thread today (we're moving!) but we just can't get it off our minds. It's killing us that we're being accused of misrepresentation, or even to a lesser extreme that folks are simply disappointed. And we can't quite figure out what specifically we did to cause it. We do offer samples, and we posted our review at the same time the ink went up for sale, so I feel like we made a reasonable effort to present the ink for what it was, as objectively as possible.

 

BUT that all being said, please email us directly and we'll be happy to work with you if you're unhappy with your bottle purchase. As Brian said, we will try to speak to Nathan next week and try to provide more context into his marketing terms or labels or whatever (and I will certainly change the PDF document if necessary), but I think we're arguing over semantics here. I don't think Nathan ever intended these terms to be used absolutely.

 

We're really trying here to provide a great product and great service, and to represent Noodler's well, and we'll do whatever we need to make things right.

 

Thank you!

 

As a FPN user, I feel embarrassed that you and Brian feel you have to defend yourself so much!!!

 

Please, don't stress about it so much just because of the comments from a few malcontents.

 

Thanks so much for all your effort and when I have finished moving and have a bit of cash, I look forward to making another purchase through your store. Hopefully, you'll have Liberty's Elysium (original formula) up for sale.

 

Thanks again Goulet's!!

 

P.

[arkgray]

The most important thing here is that the LE ink is not removed from the page. Other blue inks will wash away in their entirety, leaving nothing but a blank white page or a pale smear. This ink is still legible. The color is not the same, granted, but it is legible and will last on the paper. It does resist many other chemical attempts to alter it. Just as with other fully bulletproof inks that change color when certain chemicals are applied, that is the point - it shows proof that it was tampered with. So I think, I believe, it is accurately labeled as bulletproof according to Nathan's intention. In the interview, he describes bulletproof as a sliding scale (over time, its definition has evolved into being this sort of super ink that is completely resistant to everything). Not all bulletproof inks are created equal. Again, this has to do with the dye components. Black is of course the most durable, blue is not.

 

This is exactly why I think this ink is still bulletproof. Are other inks "more" bulletproof? Sure, but that doesn't mean this one isn't.

 

Good luck with the move, we are moving in a couple of weeks. I really hate all the packing that goes along with it.

[Brian C]

I don't go swimming with my mail. It's a pretty blue. I'll buy some.

[Brian C]

I don't go swimming with my mail. It's a pretty blue. I'll buy some.

 

 

Except it's sold out. Anyone unhappy with their bottle contact me. I'll trade ink or buy it outright.

[inkstainedruth]

If I want something "permanent" I'll use KTC. Or an iron gall ink.

In the meantime, I've got a sample of LE on order to see if I like the color. I was spending enough on inks and samples this time out that I decided to hold out on getting a bottle of BSB for now in favor of some random samples (after all -- there's always a "next time" for ordering )

And frankly, I'm mostly interested in the color and whether it behaves well in any of my pens. All the hyped "properties" are just a bonus, IMO.

I've *also* got a bottle of Herbin's Rouge Hematite on order, and it's pretty clear that RH doesn't have *any* sort of water resistant qualities -- and I'm having some nib creep issues in the flex piston, as the red splotch on my middle finger attests. But I'm buying a full bottle anyway, simply because of the amazing color. Something that vibrant (in a color I normally don't even LIKE) makes a very weird juxtaposition with the subtlety of KTC).

But then, my Briggs-Myers scores were all over the map too: I'm just a mass of contradictions.... :roflmho:

It's just INK for Pete's sake. It's not solving the national debt crisis. Okay, in my case it's probably *adding* to the national debt crisis (if not Brian and Rachel's).

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

[daoud62]

I must confess that I am disappointed as well, and I have 2 bottles waiting for me in NY. I assumed that "bulletproof" for LE meant the same thing as for Polar Brown: You soak it in water, pick it up and the entire text remains as it was.

 

I agree with Sam Capote and some of the other members that if there is a way to reformulate this to make it truly "bulletproof," as Nathan and we have used that term before, it should be done. As a satisfied repeat customer, I assume the Goulets are already thinking of doing just that because of their legendary respect for, and responsiveness to, their clientele's reactions. From what I can see from everyones's posts, LE is a wonderfully vibrant blue, and I for one was looking forward to having such a color that was permanent as well. I think something can be done. Right????

[hardyb]

"I do want to express a heartfelt apology for anyone who feels misled about the way we have promoted this ink, if you feel it was unfair at all then please shoot me an email or PM and I'm happy to work with you to make it right" B.G.

 

You know what, you can not get a better example of a reputable, forthright vendor then this response. We are lucky to have him as a member of our community. I know that if Brian had been the first contact for these concerns he would have done everything in his power to address them properly ASAP. So to help out:

Edited June 2, 2012 by hardyb

[Lloyd]

How does LE's properties differ from those of Noodlers BlueBlack or RedBlack (which are labeled as Partially Bulletproof)? RedBlack , BlueBlack , and LE are all blends of a Fully Bulletproof ink and a non-Bulletproof. So, shouldn't LE be labeled as Partially Bulletproof?

[daoud62]

"I do want to express a heartfelt apology for anyone who feels misled about the way we have promoted this ink, if you feel it was unfair at all then please shoot me an email or PM and I'm happy to work with you to make it right" B.G.

 

You know what, you can not get a better example of a reputable, forthright vendor then this response. We are lucky to have him as a member of our community. I know that if Brian had been the first contact for these concerns he would have done everything in his power to address them properly ASAP. So to help out:

 

 

I totally agree with you, hardyb!

[daoud62]

Before people forget... THANK YOU, Brian and Rachel Goulet, for giving us a new Noodler's blue ink. :notworthy1: It might not suit all of us, but you did your best and most of us appreciate it. :thumbup:

 

Here here!!! And thanks to Nathan too!

[threeamigos]

 

 

I didn't even want to address this thread today (we're moving!) but we just can't get it off our minds. It's killing us that we're being accused of misrepresentation, or even to a lesser extreme that folks are simply disappointed. And we can't quite figure out what specifically we did to cause it. We do offer samples, and we posted our review at the same time the ink went up for sale, so I feel like we made a reasonable effort to present the ink for what it was, as objectively as possible.

 

 

I don't believe there are any accusations of any wrong doing here. I've watched Brian's video review of this ink several times and I think that some are disappointed because we experienced more than "just a little bit of color movement" when exposed to water than what he saw with his test. I had no idea that so much of the ink would come off and smear so badly when splattered with water. I was expecting it to be like the other bulletproof and eternal inks that I have. Perhaps the type of paper or time to absorb into the paper will make a difference. I really should have tried a sample and tested it out for myself if water resistance was important to me. Perhaps this ink is more like Noodler's Red Black than like Bad Blue Heron, Polar Blue, or other similarly classified Noodler's inks.

[mhosea]

As promised.

 

First, the before scan.

 

Then after a thorough soaking, rinsing, and drying.

 

after more than 10 minutes immersed in bleach. The left side of the page was not immersed, obviously.

 

Seems good enough to me.

[StephY]

I have soaked a test page in water for 24 hours. The ink color is faded but my doodle is still legible without difficulty. It's good enough for me.

[tonybelding]

First, the before scan.

 

Then after a thorough soaking, rinsing, and drying.

 

I'm very surprised by how badly Noodler's Blue did for you. Whenever I hit it with water, it always leaves behind a distinct "shadow" imprint. Your scan looks just like the results I got with Eel Blue, which never had that water-resistant element. I wonder what's going on? Did you grab a bottle of Eel Blue by accident? Or could it be that Noodler's Blue has been reformulated somewhere along the way?

 

 

after more than 10 minutes immersed in bleach. The left side of the page was not immersed, obviously.

 

Honestly, it doesn't look that great to me. I thought at least the "bulletproof" component of LE would be mostly unaffected by bleach.

[watch_art]

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

 

 

 

Chill Winston.

[SamCapote]

How does LE's properties differ from those of Noodlers BlueBlack or RedBlack (which are labeled as Partially Bulletproof)? RedBlack , BlueBlack , and LE are all blends of a Fully Bulletproof ink and a non-Bulletproof. So, shouldn't LE be labeled as Partially Bulletproof?

 

I didn't even want to address this thread today (we're moving!) but we just can't get it off our minds. It's killing us that we're being accused of misrepresentation, or even to a lesser extreme that folks are simply disappointed. And we can't quite figure out what specifically we did to cause it. We do offer samples, and we posted our review at the same time the ink went up for sale, so I feel like we made a reasonable effort to present the ink for what it was, as objectively as possible.

 

 

I don't believe there are any accusations of any wrong doing here. I've watched Brian's video review of this ink several times and I think that some are disappointed because we experienced more than "just a little bit of color movement" when exposed to water than what he saw with his test. I had no idea that so much of the ink would come off and smear so badly when splattered with water. I was expecting it to be like the other bulletproof and eternal inks that I have. Perhaps the type of paper or time to absorb into the paper will make a difference. I really should have tried a sample and tested it out for myself if water resistance was important to me. Perhaps this ink is more like Noodler's Red Black than like Bad Blue Heron, Polar Blue, or other similarly classified Noodler's inks.

 

Sigh....repeating again, I am probably one of FPN's most outspoken proponents and fan for both Goulet and Noodler's, but that does not mean I will distort the integrity of my personal perception and test when I feel something is not being correctly represented--no matter how strong the attacks against me. I would urge my dear Goulet friends to not assume such personal inflamed intentions, or feel so defensive as it appears in your posts. This is a very tiny tiny issue regarding the expectation created when you and/or Nathan categorized this as a bulletproof true blue ink. IMHO, that expectation has not been met. In previous posts, I have said that in and of itself, this ink is perfectly fine. It's just not bulletproof. I personally would not use it to address a letter or sign a mortgage instrument, or a check going into the mail, when I know there are other actual bulletproof/eternal inks I can use. In my last post, I also agreed that on the scale of life's important issues, this is just ink...so I do keep this in the proper perspective.

 

I agree with the two comments quoted above, and believe that people need to be able to depend on an ink label like "permanent" (i.e. a Sharpie marker), "eternal" or "bulletproof" (Noodler's). Yes, there is a gradation to many measurement scales, but when I pick a Noodler's eternal/bulletproof/tamper-proof (or Sharpie permanent) ink to use, I want to know that if my letter or check gets caught in a downpour, it will remain easily readable, not mostly washed away with water. I want to know if I spill my glass of water, or have wet fingers, my original writing will not change in appearance significantly. I do not on a practical basis use my inks with fears of laundry bleach or alcohol being used in a fraudulent manner. That's what a xerox, digital photo, or scanned backup copy is for. My further testing with bleach was just for comparison purposes to other known inks when I saw most of the lovely blue color of L.E. being washed away so easily.

 

Unlike mhosea's technique, after rinsing for 15-20 seconds under the faucet, or swirling the page in a bowl of water, I did not let it dry before removing the water, and adding the bleach drops to the wet paper, forming a small puddle on the wet paper laying in the empty bowl and letting it sit there for 30-60 seconds (I didn't time it precisely), then rinsed again with water. I did my tests on Hammermill copy paper, Meade tablet, and Staples eco-Sugarcane tablet. The results were not pretty.

 

I stand by my tests, and SOLELY COMPARED TO OTHER KNOWN BULLETPROOF/ETERNAL inks, this L.E. is not in the same league....not at all.

 

I can see that the only real way to demonstrate my assertions is to collect a good number of bulletproof/eternal/fraud-resistant ink from Noodler's PDF chart, and make marks on the same paper(s), and demonstrate the issue. I only resist doing this because I already know the results, the wasted time, and because it may push Phormio and KCat over the edge into an alternate reality. :roflmho:

[threeamigos]

Liberty's Elysium is promoted as bulletproof, eternal, forgery resistan and fully water-resistant and is in the SAME category as Noodler's Benevolent Badger and Polar Blue. Noodler's Navy is categorized as only partially bulletproof and partially water-resistant. Namiki blue is a known water-resistant ink of similar shade to Liberty's Elysium. So now let's compare inks with supposedly the SAME properties.

 

 

 

The first photo includes writing samples before the water test and the second is a wet Q-tip swiped across the writing as in Brian's video. To be clear, I only wet the Q-tip once so the top line will have the wettest stroke. I let the ink dry for 4 hours before swiping with a wet Q-tip to ensure the ink was completely dry. The paper is Rhodia dot pad and the ink is loaded in very different pens, but what i had inked at the moment. Even with my very poor phone camera and kitchen table lighting, I think it is clear that LE does not perform as other Noodler's inks that are in the same category. Of all the inks shown, LE has the most color movement even without soaking the sheet. Noodler's Navy also has visible color movement, but not as bad as LE. Namiki blue has only very minor color movement of color that I can see in person, but doesn't show up in the photo. There is absolutely no color smearing with the bulletproof, eternal, and full waterproof Noodler's Polar Blue and Benevolent Badger. So in my mind, LE's properties are more like Noodler's Navy (partially bulletproof) and not nearly as water-resistant as Namiki Blue that is similar in shade to LE or the other bulletproof, eternal and fully water-resistant inks (Polar Blue and Benevolent Badger).

 

I am disappointed because I expected LE to perform as other bulletproof, eternal, and fully water-resistant inks as it is now promoted. I really don't think that this ink will hold up to moisture left on a table, someone resting a damp coffee cup on my work, or the numerous other things that can happen with fluids at the work place. Remember, the photo shown is just a wet Q-tip! I am sorry, but submerging my entire notebook in water to clear excess smeared ink after a spill is not an option and that is why I was excited about another truly bulletproof, eternal and fully water-resistant ink. This ink will never find its way to work with me.

 

I am glad that this ink will work for many of you, but it is just not what I expected based on how it performed compared to other Noodler's ink in the same exact category. I think it should be re-classified as partially bulletproof and partially water-resistant to avoid confusion.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[mhosea]

Did you grab a bottle of Eel Blue by accident? Or could it be that Noodler's Blue has been reformulated somewhere along the way?

 

The most Eel Blue I've ever had was a sample. Seems to me that my results match the reviews of Noodler's Blue on the net pretty well, too. I wish mine behaved like yours. Don't know what to say, but at least you know why I disagreed with you earlier on this point.

 

Honestly, it doesn't look that great to me. I thought at least the "bulletproof" component of LE would be mostly unaffected by bleach.

 

It is what it is. One could wish for better. Do bear in mind that I conducted the test in Mythbusters fashion. Drops of bleach had virtually no effect over several minutes. I resorted to immersion for several more minutes because the drops didn't work. It may not be entirely clear photographically, but the Bad Belted Kingfisher labels were profoundly affected, even though they held up much better.

[Phormio]

I think the moderators should close this thread.

 

The drive of people, such as SamCapote, to keep hammering away at this issue for the sake of being right, is actually making this thread rather painful.

 

I think we all accept, without the need of a PDF chart, that this is semi-bulletproof.

 

I think, in terms of permanence, it falls short of some people's expectation despite the fact that FPN users developed their own hype about this ink.

 

I think it is sad that the Goulet's have both had to make these long apologies, which reflects how decent they are versus how petulant some people here are.

 

At most what I think should happen is the Goulet's market their ink as semi-bulletproof. If that is not good enough for some people then they should stop being princesses and suck it up.

 

The ink is what it is, it doesn't need changing. But this does not need a massive thread to deal with it. Quite frankly this thread is the manifest representation in the attitude that makes good vendors harden in attitude towards us!

 

And I think people like Sam and Rugrat and others can shut up. We got your point the first seven times!!!

 

So moderators, please close this thread!

 

P