Waterman CF - Unusual Pattern

[wspohn]

I already checked withj Andy Lambrou on this - the pattern doesn't appear in either Fountain Pens of the World or his book on British and American pens - and he hasn't seen this one before.

 

Has anyone else seen this on a CF or any other model, and do you know anything about it, like the name of the pattern? I'm trying to figure out if it was an experimental pattern (like the many variations on Parker 75s, for instance) that never made it to the marketplace, or just a rare one you don't see often.

 

http://www.rhodo.citymax.com/i/non-rhodo/watermancfgold5.jpg

[Dan Carmell]

Bill--

 

Great pattern, but if Andy didn't recognize, I sure don't! I wonder--did the C/F in gold plated models usually come with a chromed section? I am more used to seeing them with a gold section, so I wonder if the chromed section suggests that it is a prototype.

 

In any case, a great find!

 

Dan

[wspohn]

Good question, Dan - you had me up counting the collection.

 

I have 8 gold CFs and all but one has the gold section. So it seems that the silver section was certainly the minority choice, but I actually don't mind the contrast.

 

When the pen shows up I'll take some better photos of the pattern. I'd be surprised if Waterman never used that pattern in anything else, although I guess it could have been strictly experimental.

 

At less than $100, I am certainly not complaining!

[wspohn]

Wow - talk about coincidence!

 

No sooner did I get the FP than what shows up on my doorstep but a BP I had bought on Ebay, except it was NOT the pattern I had bought (a 'Crocodile') but rather this new pattern!

 

With pen in hand I quickly snapped a couple of images.

 

http://www.rhodo.citymax.com/i/non-rhodo/watermanbp1.jpg

 

http://www.rhodo.citymax.com/i/non-rhodo/watermanbp2.jpg

 

So the partial answer would seem to be that this pattern did make it out into the market, even if not very common.

 

Plus I am now wondering what Pen Gods are looking down at me - what are the odds of this BP showing up, mistakenly, the very same day as I posted on the FP? (cue eerie music...)

[MYU]

Has anyone else seen this on a CF or any other model, and do you know anything about it, like the name of the pattern? I'm trying to figure out if it was an experimental pattern (like the many variations on Parker 75s, for instance) that never made it to the marketplace, or just a rare one you don't see often.

 

http://www.rhodo.citymax.com/i/non-rhodo/watermancfgold5.jpg

Interesting -- I had also looked at possibly buying this pen (from sccsales); glad to see it went to a board member. It's a very nice pattern that I did see once before, a long time ago on another Waterman C/F. Looks like you got a very nice example at a great price.

 

Incidentally, I take it you have built up a nice collection of Waterman C/F fountain pens. Have you managed to find an aftermarket ink converter that works with them?

[Maja]

Nice pen and ballpoint, Bill! I think I saw the fountain pen at the last VPC (Vancouver Pen Club) meetup, did I not?

[wspohn]

Nice pen and ballpoint, Bill! I think I saw the fountain pen at the last VPC (Vancouver Pen Club) meetup, did I not?

No, this is something I just bought but haven't received yet.

 

It is always hard to tell complex patterns from a photograph, particularly when bright metal is involved, but when the second (BP) pen actually showed up it became obvious that it was the same as the FP I didn't have yet. I may have it by the next meeting of the Vancouver group (or I may not - the shipper is notoriously slow)

[DocNib]

--did the C/F in gold plated models usually come with a chromed section?  I am more used to seeing them with a gold section, so I wonder if the chromed section suggests that it is a prototype.

 

In any case, a great find!

 

Dan

Good Morning Bill, Dan & Gang!

That's a neat pattern on the CF, haven't seen that one before either. I've got a small Waterman catalog from 1983 somewhere & can check the patterns available at that time, but I'm thinking it's earlier than that.

 

The nib section is a standard one that was normally used on CF's with silver/chrome/steel bodies & caps since it matched better. Here's a pic of some choices of nib sections, which were available in Steel, 14K, 18K and 18K "White" Gold.

 

One of my favorite patterns is the Moire series...I've got the Chrome version, but sold my Gold-filled one long time ago (why, why why?). I may have a CF pic done already, if not, then I'll do another & post it.

 

Here are the nibs:

http://www.parkvillepen.com/images/docnib/cfnibs.jpg

 

Waterman's Rule!

DOC

PS--Someday I'll clean the sticker goo off these sections...owner before me took them off for some unknown reason, too bad!

[wspohn]

Interesting -- I had also looked at possibly buying this pen (from sccsales); glad to see it went to a board member.  It's a very nice pattern that I did see once before, a long time ago on another Waterman C/F.  Looks like you got a very nice example at a great price.

 

Incidentally, I take it you have built up a nice collection of Waterman C/F fountain pens.  Have you managed to find an aftermarket ink converter that works with them?

 

While the CF isn't the main focus of my collection, I do find them seductive and have amassed maybe 30 including some BP versions and a Directeur-General which was a later Waterman but used the same nib design.

 

The hard ones to find are those like the Crocodile patterns in both GP and sterling - you rarely see them. If anyone wants a gold Crocodile I did buy a nice one with a split in the barrel - still functional but more a place-marker in a collection until a perfect example comes along. I finally found my perfect example so can now sell my 'placemarker' on to someone else.

 

http://www.penhome.co.uk/images/2606.jpg

 

The converters are definitely an issue. For those not into the CF, it was the first widely distributed cartridge fill pen. Unfortunately, Waterman in their wisdom later saw fit to change the size of the cartridges used in their later pens, leaving the CF as a bit of an orphan, dependent on a dwindling supply of original cartridges. They did produce (or someone else did for them) a converter, but supplies of these are inconsistent. They are currently available for a pittance (less then 5 Euros) from a large Ebay seller in Germany, schreibwaren-bestellen.

 

Some of my other favorite patterns in the CF are the Moire (in both GP and silver plate:

 

http://www.rhodo.citymax.com/i/non-rhodo/fa_10.JPG

Edited December 29, 2006 by wspohn

[DocNib]

Found one pic, but it shows CF pencils and some other Waterman examples. The Moire is one COOL pattern!

DOC

 

http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p113/DocNib2006/WatermanPCLs3.jpg

[Dan Carmell]

Bill and Doug--

 

Very interesting, thanks for the photos! Bill, neat that the matching BP arrived in that uncanny way. It does suggest that this is a little know but regular production pen, doesn't it? Neat to have a example, I am sure you will find out more down the road.

 

I too really like the moire and crocodile patterns and want to add both to my Waterman collection. The moire is fascinating and the crocodile very sophisticated.

 

best, Dan

[wspohn]

I too really like the moire and crocodile patterns and want to add both to my Waterman collection. The moire is fascinating and the crocodile very sophisticated.

Yes - I don't think anyone else replicated quite that Crocodile pattern. It is fairly scarce in either GP or sterling, and I had to hunt a long while and pay a good price for both. If you want a place holder gold Croc I am going to get around to listing mine in the marketplace for $75 + postage (that's about 30% of what perfect ones go for).

 

The Moire is another pattern that I don't recall anyone else doing and it must have been a bear to produce. You can sometimes luck out and find a reasonably priced Moire in goldor silver one. They also did BP in those patterns.

 

The diffiicult thing for North American collectors is that much of the production and sales were in France and that is the major source for these pens. Many of them are auctioned in French and that gives us Canadians a bit of an edge on the communication

 

I'll have to take a pic of another model I have, a Fougeres pattern in sterling silver - but both the clip and the section were gold plated. Makes for a striking combination.

 

You can still find cartridges (many now dried up) and refill them of course, but I prefer using converters.

[petra]

Just in case anyone's interested, Waterman short cartridges fit Cf pens. At least they fit mine - a Moire and a Directeur General. The Waterman cartridges only come in black and blue, though.

 

Unfortunately, short cartridges by other manufacturers DON'T fit -- they're just a hair too wide <_<

 

Petra

[DocNib]

OK Bill & Gang,

Now that we've started this thread on CF's, I had to go into the collection & see what finishes I have (that I could find). I came across 7 of them, 3 made in the U.S. and 4 from France...

From right to left:

1) Chrome Barleycorn pattern w/18K White Gold broad nib (France c. 1979)

2) Black Lacquer & G/P trim w/18K medium nib (France c. 1980)

3) Chrome Moire pattern w/14K medium nib (France c. 1978)

4) Grey Lacquer & G/P trim w/18K STUB nib (France c. 1980)

5) Black Plastic & G/P trim w/14K fine nib (USA c. 1956)

6) Turquoise Plastic & G/P trim w/14K fine nib (USA c. 1955)

7) Tan Plastic & G/P trim w/14K medium nib (USA c. 1955)

 

http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p113/DocNib2006/WatermanCFs.jpg

 

Also pictured are two empty cartridges...

Clear w/red top (dummy cartridge) imprinted:

LIFT BY PAD

REFILLS UNDER PAD

 

CLEAR w/blue tint inprinted:

LC5

Waterman's

WASHABLE BLUE

U.S. PAT. 2802448

MADE IN U.S.A.

 

Never knew that their early cartridges had the little metal cap on the end...not sure of it's purpose.

Also found 15 assorted boxes of CF cartridges, some still with ink in them after all these years...BONANZA!

Unfortunately, all the early "aerometric" converters in some of these have hardened rubber sacs in them...maybe they can be re-sacced?

Hmmmmm......'NJOY!

 

DocNib

PS--Notice the Stub nib on the Grey one, pristine...never been inked!

[DocNib]

The Moire is another pattern that I don't recall anyone else doing and it must have been a bear to produce.

Bill,

The only other Moire patterned pen I can think of is a Targa series by Sheaffer. Produced I believe in the early 90's, they were a guilloched (sp?) metal barrel done in a Moire Pattern and then layers of translucent colored lacquers were applied and a final clear coat added at the end of the process.

Beautiful pens (Sheaffer Moire) but the CF version is better because you not only see the pattern, you can feel it too...tactile stimulation at its best!

DOC

[MYU]

Bill, thanks for posting that info about the German seller offering CF converters! He's still active. I wonder where he's gotten all of those converters from? He's sold a lot of 30 back in December. The current lot of 30 is down to almost half as of this posting.

 

I was going to buy some converters directly from Waterman/Sanford, but at $17 a piece (with shipping), grabbing several from this German seller is a far better value. And don't forget to say Danke schön!

[sweilem]

i got this ballpoint with this pattern

http://www.secedu.net/stylebid.com/images/PENSAPRIL2016/DSCN1970.JPG

[RMN]

i got this ballpoint with this pattern

http://www.secedu.net/stylebid.com/images/PENSAPRIL2016/DSCN1970.JPG

 

Nice... I am not into BP myself very much. Are the modern Waterman refill OK for this beauty of yours?

 

 

D.ick

[sweilem]

 

Nice... I am not into BP myself very much. Are the modern Waterman refill OK for this beauty of yours?

 

 

D.ick

yes they fit fine i guess

[Left FPN]

yes they fit fine i guess

Hmmm, are you sure.

 

A quote from a good source,

 

Please note that Waterman CF converters, cartridges and ballpoint refills are now very difficult to obtain as production ceased some years ago.

 

But I think some users have modified other brands to fit. While some posts here state they are still available I would be very careful because over time they dry up.

 

From a catalogue of that period, the Flair Titane is for the CF ballpoint in black, blue, red and green.