Why Are There So Few Permanent Inks?

[The Good Captain]

Well, I've found the Pelikan 4001 Blue-Black and Brilliant Black to have reasonable water-resistance and surprisingly, the same for Sheaffer Skrip (current) Black. So has the Lamy Blue-Black in the bottles we can still get here in the UK. Someone has said that Diamine Prussian Blue has a bit of guts too but I've not soaked that one yet. I am talking about the effect on paper of course; nothing to do with clothes at all.

[fiberdrunk]

 

Someone here at FPN has posted about using the Magic Color Liquid Acrylic inks in fountain pens, IIRC. Maybe they would work for you? A search of FPN should turn up more info.

 

 

That would be me. :embarrassed_smile:

And that's a big reason why I gravitated to using acrylics-- because there are so few permanent inks out there for fountain pens. The acrylic inks outperform many of the bulletproof Noodler's, in fact, in my lightfastness test, and they never smear.

 

Magic Color is made in England. Only use it in a fountain pen that has an ink feed that can be completely taken apart for cleaning, like the Rotring ArtPen or Pilot Parallel. I've done quite a few reviews about the ink, but the words "magic color" don't come up very well in the search engine here. Artifolk sells it in the U.K., even cheaper than what I can get it here in the U.S.

 

Other threads about it:

 

Lesser Known Inks Magic Color, Rotring ArtistColor, Calli & Winsor & Newton Calligraphy

 

Speedry Magic Color: Rust Before there was Noodler's..

 

Magic Color Grecian Olive with Rotring ArtPen 1.1 mm nib

 

Help Me Choose/create My Ink For Drawing finding or mixing the perfect blue for drawing

[s5s]

Well, I've found the Pelikan 4001 Blue-Black and Brilliant Black to have reasonable water-resistance and surprisingly, the same for Sheaffer Skrip (current) Black. So has the Lamy Blue-Black in the bottles we can still get here in the UK. Someone has said that Diamine Prussian Blue has a bit of guts too but I've not soaked that one yet. I am talking about the effect on paper of course; nothing to do with clothes at all.

 

From the ink reviews of Lamy Blue-Black, Pelikan 4001 Black & Blue-Black, Sheaffer Blue-Black I see that the inks' resistance to water is similar. Why is Lamy Blue-Black called iron gall/waterproof and the other's aren't?

[The Good Captain]

Well, I've found the Pelikan 4001 Blue-Black and Brilliant Black to have reasonable water-resistance and surprisingly, the same for Sheaffer Skrip (current) Black. So has the Lamy Blue-Black in the bottles we can still get here in the UK. Someone has said that Diamine Prussian Blue has a bit of guts too but I've not soaked that one yet. I am talking about the effect on paper of course; nothing to do with clothes at all.

 

From the ink reviews of Lamy Blue-Black, Pelikan 4001 Black & Blue-Black, Sheaffer Blue-Black I see that the inks' resistance to water is similar. Why is Lamy Blue-Black called iron gall/waterproof and the other's aren't?

Maybe so that Pelikan and Sheaffer could still be imported by countries that had issues with the contents of the IG ones. I don't know for sure but someone out there will!

I also forgot to mention R&K iron-gall inks; I'm expecting the Salix colour version soon and will then try them all out together. I don't plan to get the Registrar's or Ecclesiastical ones just yet.

 

 

[s5s]

 

Someone here at FPN has posted about using the Magic Color Liquid Acrylic inks in fountain pens, IIRC. Maybe they would work for you? A search of FPN should turn up more info.

 

 

That would be me. :embarrassed_smile:

And that's a big reason why I gravitated to using acrylics-- because there are so few permanent inks out there for fountain pens. The acrylic inks outperform many of the bulletproof Noodler's, in fact, in my lightfastness test, and they never smear.

 

Magic Color is made in England. Only use it in a fountain pen that has an ink feed that can be completely taken apart for cleaning, like the Rotring ArtPen or Pilot Parallel. I've done quite a few reviews about the ink, but the words "magic color" don't come up very well in the search engine here. Artifolk sells it in the U.K., even cheaper than what I can get it here in the U.S.

 

Other threads about it:

 

Lesser Known Inks Magic Color, Rotring ArtistColor, Calli & Winsor & Newton Calligraphy

 

Speedry Magic Color: Rust Before there was Noodler's..

 

Magic Color Grecian Olive with Rotring ArtPen 1.1 mm nib

 

Help Me Choose/create My Ink For Drawing finding or mixing the perfect blue for drawing

 

Is the black safe to use in a FP? I'll go over to Staples or WHSmith tomorrow and check for liquid acrylic inks. I've only seen the tube and paste form. You know water based inks smell like watercolours which is what they (I'm sure) are - water colours powder mixed with water. They probably have some slimy stuff in it for lubrication (probably made from plants) but that's it.

Edited January 11, 2012 by s5s

[Messmer]

Why is it that most of these manufacturers make no waterproof inks or if they make one it's almost like a myth because nobody has managed to get a hold of a bottle?

Just ask: why make GOOD quality goods when people will pay the same price for junk that cost less to make? Even pay more on the long run because of the short life span of the product!

 

Also, most people does not have an idea of conserving thing. For example, several form use a NCR paper. It is junk for archival purpose. Same with Bic pens use by office registrars. It won't last long as a good quality ink. Sadly, we don't have proper law in Canada to force the use of quality ink and archival paper. By law you are forced to keep a receipt 6 or 7 years if use for Tax benefit. But thermal paper use everywhere does not last 6 month...

 

You sound more knowledgeable on this topic than me. However, Bic is a big company and their ballpoints use ink which is not bad an ink at all. I've got notes that haven't changed one bit in the past 5+ years. You'd think I wrote them last night. I thought oil based ink is: 1) very permanent; 2) very stable; 3) very water resistant. The only flaw that it has and FP ink doesn't is that it requires more pressure to apply it. Uni-Ball eye claims their ink is unremovable:

 

"Virtually all of their normal writing pens feature waterproof and fade-resistant pigment ink - superior in performance to the dyestuff inks used in most pens, and highly resistant to tampering or accidental spillages."

 

Here are the products http://www.cultpens.com/acatalog/Uni-Ball.html (pricey). I've got a carton box full of Pilot, Uniball, Staedler etc. pens which probably costs as much as a Visconti HS but they really are unremovable and don't change. I've been soaking a page in water with no change to the ink. I think one gell ink went through the paper so it was visible on the other side but with liquid inks I've observed no change whatsoever.

 

EDIT

Uniball also has the superink range or whatever. That's what I'm talking about. For me the ink is the most important thing. Only after the ink is the pen. Much like guns and bullets - you design/pick the bullet and then you design the gun to fit the bullet, not the other way around.

I should have clarify. When I say a Bic, I mean a Bic cristal or Bic round stick. The same kind use by Selectum. The kind you find in office because they cost a buck or two for 12 of them. They are the kind you don't mind too much if somebody stole them. But they are really bad for archival. The problem is it is not lightfast and not good again water and humidity.

 

I know about Uniball super ink it is what my wife use for signing check. It is a good pigment ink. I have a few of them because they are pretty permanent. But you won't find them in an office registrar because they cost more and they think people will steal them. I'm not joking.

[Messmer]

TBH Uniball's ink washes out. I'm not sure whether it's the ink or the detergent but I write primarily in red and because I use needlepoints and often reach over to type on the computer I often get the pen under my shirt and i get ink on my sleeves. After a wash there is rarely anything left.

Not all uniball ink is the super ink and some colors are not resistant as others.

[lambertiana]

I have tested the following inks by leaving written pages soaking in a sink for half an hour, and they had absolutely zero ink bleed:

 

Diamine Registrar

Montblanc Midnight

Rohrer & Klingner Salix

Lamy Blue-Black

 

And the Pelikan 4001 Blue-Black had only a very slight bleed. I signed a check with Pelikan Blue-Black recently, and the recipient forgot it and let it go through the laundry. Although the check itself was in bad shape afterward, my signature was still clear. To me, that is permanent.

 

I have also had good luck with various bulletproof inks from Noodlers - Legal Lapis, Gulf Stream Blue, Henry Hudson Blue, and Bad Belted Kingfisher, to name a few. Bad Belted Kingfisher loses one color component with water, but the writing remains clear and legible. I have also had good luck with Aircorp Blue-Black, which has excellent water resistance.

 

Bay State Blue has excellent water resistance, but has a reputation of fading under UV or sunlight.

[raging.dragon]

 

Someone here at FPN has posted about using the Magic Color Liquid Acrylic inks in fountain pens, IIRC. Maybe they would work for you? A search of FPN should turn up more info.

 

 

That would be me. :embarrassed_smile:

And that's a big reason why I gravitated to using acrylics-- because there are so few permanent inks out there for fountain pens. The acrylic inks outperform many of the bulletproof Noodler's, in fact, in my lightfastness test, and they never smear.

 

Magic Color is made in England. Only use it in a fountain pen that has an ink feed that can be completely taken apart for cleaning, like the Rotring ArtPen or Pilot Parallel. I've done quite a few reviews about the ink, but the words "magic color" don't come up very well in the search engine here. Artifolk sells it in the U.K., even cheaper than what I can get it here in the U.S.

 

Other threads about it:

 

Lesser Known Inks Magic Color, Rotring ArtistColor, Calli & Winsor & Newton Calligraphy

 

Speedry Magic Color: Rust Before there was Noodler's..

 

Magic Color Grecian Olive with Rotring ArtPen 1.1 mm nib

 

Help Me Choose/create My Ink For Drawing finding or mixing the perfect blue for drawing

 

Is the black safe to use in a FP? I'll go over to Staples or WHSmith tomorrow and check for liquid acrylic inks. I've only seen the tube and paste form. You know water based inks smell like watercolours which is what they (I'm sure) are - water colours powder mixed with water. They probably have some slimy stuff in it for lubrication (probably made from plants) but that's it.

 

See section I highlighted in red. In general the acrylic inks are not fountain pen safe; however, they are safe in some fountain pens. In addition to limiting the use of these inks to pens which can be disassembled for cleaning, I'd further suggest limiting their use to pens which you can readily afford to replace. Just in case some ink is left in the pen, dries, and clogs it.

Edited January 11, 2012 by raging.dragon

[stuartk]

UNLESS they were written with cheap bic sticks and their like...

 

I have some papers I wrote in grade school that were done with BIC pens and they still look fine roughly 4 decades later...

 

I didn't get a Parker Jotter until I was in Jr. High School, and before that I always had BIC pens. BICs were just the most common ballpoint pens when I went to school. Everybody started out each year with a couple of new BICs and some wood pencils. I was unusual in that I also had a Sheaffer cartridge pen starting when I was 11 or 12.

[fiberdrunk]

 

 

Is the black safe to use in a FP? I'll go over to Staples or WHSmith tomorrow and check for liquid acrylic inks. I've only seen the tube and paste form. You know water based inks smell like watercolours which is what they (I'm sure) are - water colours powder mixed with water. They probably have some slimy stuff in it for lubrication (probably made from plants) but that's it.

 

 

For Magic Color, only the "standard range" are safe for fountain pens. The black is in their "opaque range" and would not be safe. However, the colors are mixable and perhaps you could mix up a black. You can see which colors of theirs are "standard" and which are "opaque" here.

 

Magic Color is a liquid acrylic ink advertised to be safe for fountain pens. It does not contain shellac. I don't recommend acrylic paints.

 

eta: Although I've never tried it, Magic Color does make Cleaning Fluid for their product.

 

Never let the ink dry out in your fountain pen. Again, I emphasize that I use this in a Rotring ArtPen, which can be completely disassembled for cleaning. I use the pen daily to keep it flowing. (I keep 2 inked at all times.) You don't want to set the pen down for weeks at a time, unused. You'll want designated ink converters for each color, as this ink can stain the plastic permanently.

Edited January 11, 2012 by fiberdrunk

[stuartk]

From the ink reviews of Lamy Blue-Black, Pelikan 4001 Black & Blue-Black, Sheaffer Blue-Black I see that the inks' resistance to water is similar. Why is Lamy Blue-Black called iron gall/waterproof and the other's aren't?

Maybe so that Pelikan and Sheaffer could still be imported by countries that had issues with the contents of the IG ones. I don't know for sure but someone out there will!

 

 

I think it's because the Pelikan and Sheaffer inks aren't iron-gall inks.

 

I also forgot to mention R&K iron-gall inks; I'm expecting the Salix colour version soon and will then try them all out together. I don't plan to get the Registrar's or Ecclesiastical ones just yet.

 

 

I used Montblanc Blue Black for years and years, then recently picked up a couple of bottles of Lamy Blue Black, then the Ecclesiastical ink, and most recently a sample of R&K Salix.

 

I still like the Montblanc the best, and then the Ecclesiastical ink. The Lamy and R&K just didn't trip my trigger. (There's nothing really wrong with them, but nothing stands out either.)

 

I want to get a sample of the Diamine Registrar's ink so I can try that too.

[stuartk]

Artifolk sells it in the U.K., even cheaper than what I can get it here in the U.S.

 

It looks like Dick Blick here in the US has a pretty good price on it too.

[fiberdrunk]

Artifolk sells it in the U.K., even cheaper than what I can get it here in the U.S.

 

It looks like Dick Blick here in the US has a pretty good price on it too.

 

Yes, they've just recently started carrying it and I'm so glad!

[Messmer]

UNLESS they were written with cheap bic sticks and their like...

 

I have some papers I wrote in grade school that were done with BIC pens and they still look fine roughly 4 decades later...

 

I didn't get a Parker Jotter until I was in Jr. High School, and before that I always had BIC pens. BICs were just the most common ballpoint pens when I went to school. Everybody started out each year with a couple of new BICs and some wood pencils. I was unusual in that I also had a Sheaffer cartridge pen starting when I was 11 or 12.

Trow water on Bic written paper and it is all gone. Let the paper at the light for some time and it is the same. Also, light is cumulative. Repeated short exposition will do the same as a long exposition to light. Bic is good enough for short term common use. But it is not satisfactory for archive. You need to think that something will happen and not nothing will happen. It is a question of balance between cost. You can't prevent every possibility and of course decay of document can't be stop. But you can buy time by doing the thing right at the start. You still may lost documents because of major situation like a fire or a flood but if you think globally, use of proper ink and paper reduce the mass of document lost.

[mirosc]

Why is it that most of these manufacturers make no waterproof inks

...

What's the point of me writing something if it's going to disappear from the paper in 1 year's time due to the properties of the ink?

I guess there is not enough demand for waterproof ink. I personally couldn't care less about waterproof or not, I write in an environment where it is highly unlikely that the papers will get soaked and so I just don't need waterproof inks.

Still I want some texts to stay on the paper, but this fading resistance have many inks and it's not related to being waterproof.

[XiaoMG]

I am also a bit disappointed at the relative dearth of good permanent inks. In fact, there's always this little voice in my head that asks why I'm spending so much money on fountain pens when I can get gel pens that write just as well and just as easily with very fine lines and excellent water and fade resistance.

 

I used to be a big fan of Pentel's Slicci and Pilot's Hi-Tec-C, but I discovered that the latter is generally not waterproof, and the former is neither waterproof nor fade-resistant, disappearing within a few months with daily sunlight exposure. Sure, I can keep things in a closed book and keep them protected for much longer, but I've since largely given up those pens because of their lack of permanence. I've switched pretty much entirely to Uni Signo DXs, which are almost perfect.

 

Whenever I load up with an Iroshizuku ink, a part of me hesitates because I know it's easy to mess up with a little water exposure. One does not need something nearly as extreme as a flood to end up with damp pages. A brief walk getting caught in the rain, a little sweat on a hot and humid day with a cahier in your pocket, some accidental condensation from a cold beverage, or even just damp hands touching the page.

 

Sure, I have handwritten stuff from several years ago that is as legible today as it was the day I wrote it, but I also have a few things that are really ugly from a few drops of water, other things that are barely legible, and some things that have completely faded or washed away.

[s5s]

I am also a bit disappointed at the relative dearth of good permanent inks. In fact, there's always this little voice in my head that asks why I'm spending so much money on fountain pens when I can get gel pens that write just as well and just as easily with very fine lines and excellent water and fade resistance.

 

I used to be a big fan of Pentel's Slicci and Pilot's Hi-Tec-C, but I discovered that the latter is generally not waterproof, and the former is neither waterproof nor fade-resistant, disappearing within a few months with daily sunlight exposure. Sure, I can keep things in a closed book and keep them protected for much longer, but I've since largely given up those pens because of their lack of permanence. I've switched pretty much entirely to Uni Signo DXs, which are almost perfect.

 

Whenever I load up with an Iroshizuku ink, a part of me hesitates because I know it's easy to mess up with a little water exposure. One does not need something nearly as extreme as a flood to end up with damp pages. A brief walk getting caught in the rain, a little sweat on a hot and humid day with a cahier in your pocket, some accidental condensation from a cold beverage, or even just damp hands touching the page.

 

Sure, I have handwritten stuff from several years ago that is as legible today as it was the day I wrote it, but I also have a few things that are really ugly from a few drops of water, other things that are barely legible, and some things that have completely faded or washed away.

 

Indeed. The reason I use a fountain pen (and that is truly the only reason) is because I find Lamy Safari very comfortable AND I've found this generic printer paper which is extremely smooth. I mean it's like silk. The expensive paper/notebooks I buy are nowhere near as smooth (go figure). However, disposable rollerballs which use liquid ink or gel ink are very smooth, comfortable and above all: (a) very permanent; ( b ) very water resistant. I've done tests and all of my Pilot, Uni-ball, rotring, Pentel pens show no variation after soaking or having a jet of water being blasted at them for some time. Rarely (usually pentel gel inks) will bleed through after soaking. I'm actually thinking of switching back to disposables for my permanent notes and FP for practice work.

 

Such a shame though. You'd think that companies like Pelikan or Parker or Mont Blanc would whip up some waterproof ink so that loyal customers don't have to go elsewhere, even if it's not as profitable as washable inks. Maybe they are operating on a tight margin who knows. Need to look at their Income statement.

 

EDIT:

What I'm mostly concerned about with inks is that there is water in the air and in the paper (because paper soaks water particles from the air). As we know humidity varies with time of day, geographical location and season too and I've seen changes even to closed notebooks due to this humidity. I don't live in a sauna but there are changes. Take a fineliner (I have unipin 03-101) write something leave it between the pages of a thick book and come back after 3 months and see that the ink has changed colour around the edges (mine turns greenish) and now there is a bit of bleed-through.

Edited January 12, 2012 by s5s

[wallylynn]

Such a shame though. You'd think that companies like Pelikan or Parker or Mont Blanc would whip up some waterproof ink so that loyal customers don't have to go elsewhere, even if it's not as profitable as washable inks. Maybe they are operating on a tight margin who knows. Need to look at their Income statement.

But Mont Blanc *does* make water-resistant ink.

[s5s]

Such a shame though. You'd think that companies like Pelikan or Parker or Mont Blanc would whip up some waterproof ink so that loyal customers don't have to go elsewhere, even if it's not as profitable as washable inks. Maybe they are operating on a tight margin who knows. Need to look at their Income statement.

But Mont Blanc *does* make water-resistant ink.

 

I wouldn't call that permanent -> https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php?/topic/169954-wet-tests-pelikan-blueblack-legal-lapis-m-b-midnight-blue/